What Value Do Atheists Find In Celebrating Christmas?

[mfbukowski]

Even if it's just teaching their kids about Santa, or giving gifts and buying a tree?

Does it enhance their lives some way? Give them a good feeling? Allow them to experience the "magic of Christmas" as a kind of counterfeit Spirit?

Is that an admission that certain "religious" practices have value in themselves?

I have noticed that non-religious Jews celebrate Chanukah, and of course we have other non-religious holidays imbued with ceremony like Kwanzaa, a totally invented, non-traditional holiday, created for this time of year. Most of the practices we follow during Christmas originate in pagan solstice festivals and yet we find a need to celebrate and cherish this holiday.

Most LDS believe that Jesus was born sometime in the early spring, and traditionally of course we often hear it said that he was born on the equivalent of April 6.

Do we as humans need such ceremonies to give us a sense of purpose and joy in our lives?

If so, do religious ceremonies have pragmatic value in themselves to help us find our place in the universe?

And why don't atheists acknowledge that?

Edited December 25, 2011 by mfbukowski

[Sethbag]

Even if it's just teaching their kids about Santa, or giving gifts and buying a tree?

Does it enhance their lives some way? Give them a good feeling? Allow them to experience the "magic of Christmas" as a kind of counterfeit Spirit?

I think that the "magic of Christmas" is about as valid as any "Spirit", but OK. Sure, I get a good feeling. I feel like my life is enhanced in some way.

Is that an admission that certain "religious" practices have value in themselves?

Religious practices are thinks we humans do. I think they have value just like most other things we do have value. It may or may not be the value you ascribe to it, but I don't think your religious beliefs place a real, bona fide limit on the domain of possible benefits of the practice to everyone else.

I have noticed that non-religious Jews celebrate Chanukah, and of course we have other non-religious holidays imbued with ceremony like Kwanzaa, a totally invented, non-traditional holiday, created for this time of year. Most of the practices we follow during Christmas originate in pagan solstice festivals and yet we find a need to celebrate and cherish this holiday.

I once derided Kwanzaa as a totally invented holiday too, until I realized that really, they're all invented, just some have more of a patina of time on them, so they get to be the "real" holidays.

Most LDS believe that Jesus was born sometime in the early spring, and traditionally of course we often hear it said that he was born on the equivalent of April 6.

Do we as humans need such ceremonies to give us a sense of purpose and joy in our lives?

Quite possibly. There are opportunity costs to everything we do, so in a sense, it makes sense that the things we choose to spend our time and resources on have some sort of payback, or else we might not do them.

If so, do religious ceremonies have pragmatic value in themselves to help us find our place in the universe?

And why don't atheists acknowledge that?

Well, I just did.

I'll admit to you that I'm not much of a fan of football at all. In fact, most years I don't watch a single football game until maybe the playoffs, and probably more years go by when I haven't watched a single football game all season until the Superbowl. But I always watch the Superbowl. Why? Does it really make sense, since I'm obviously not a "true believer" in football? Yeah, it makes sense to me. I watch the Superbowl because I'm a freaking American, and the Superbowl is a quintessentially American thing. It's one of the things we do. Watching the Superbowl is, to me, almost like an act of partaking in some sort of shared ritual, a celebration of our Americanity. I love the fact that when I watch the Superbowl I'm sharing the experience with essentially the entire country, minus the hippies and communists, and non-true Scotsmen who aren't watching it. ;-)

Oh, and Merry Hitchmas to you and your family!

Edited December 25, 2011 by Sethbag

[thesometimesaint]

Atheists, and non-Christians of course can find real value in celebrations with friends and family, and to streghen those bonds.

[Flyonthewall]

I know I can't speak for atheists, but "Peace on earth" and "Goodwill towards men" does not have to be associated with religion. I also don't think giving gifts needs to be associated with religion.

If one wanted, Christmas could be celebrated by all without embracing any particular religion or any religion at all....IMHO

[cinepro]

Even if it's just teaching their kids about Santa, or giving gifts and buying a tree?

Do atheists tend to teach their kids about Santa (i.e. that he is a real person who flies around on Christmas eve and drops down chimneys to give presents)? I would be surprised if that were the case.

Does it enhance their lives some way? Give them a good feeling? Allow them to experience the "magic of Christmas" as a kind of counterfeit Spirit?

Is that an admission that certain "religious" practices have value in themselves?

I'm not sure if the feeling we get from being with friends and family, giving gifts to each other, eating a festive meal, playing games, watching sports games together etc. is a "spirit" or the result of anything having to do with religion. Certainly, there are feelings that come from a faith in Christ and teachings about his birth at this time of year, and I would not expect atheists to benefit from those, but there are many other "spirits" of Christmas that would be available to all.

[ERayR]

I know I can't speak for atheists, but "Peace on earth" and "Goodwill towards men" does not have to be associated with religion. I also don't think giving gifts needs to be associated with religion.

If one wanted, Christmas could be celebrated by all without embracing any particular religion or any religion at all....IMHO

It's beginnings didn't.

How Did Christmas Come to Be Celebrated on December 25?

A. Roman pagans first introduced the holiday of Saturnalia, a week long period of lawlessness celebrated between December 17-25. During this period, Roman courts were closed, and Roman law dictated that no one could be punished for damaging property or injuring people during the weeklong celebration. The festival began when Roman authorities chose “an enemy of the Roman people” to represent the “Lord of Misrule.” Each Roman community selected a victim whom they forced to indulge in food and other physical pleasures throughout the week. At the festival’s conclusion, December 25^th, Roman authorities believed they were destroying the forces of darkness by brutally murdering this innocent man or woman.

B. The ancient Greek writer poet and historian Lucian (in his dialogue entitled Saturnalia) describes the festival’s observance in his time. In addition to human sacrifice, he mentions these customs: widespread intoxication; going from house to house while singing naked; rape and other sexual license; and consuming human-shaped biscuits (still produced in some English and most German bakeries during the Christmas season).

C. In the 4^th century CE, Christianity imported the Saturnalia festival hoping to take the pagan masses in with it. Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians.[2]

D. The problem was that there was nothing intrinsically Christian about Saturnalia. To remedy this, these Christian leaders named Saturnalia’s concluding day, December 25^th, to be Jesus’ birthday.

E. Christians had little success, however, refining the practices of Saturnalia. As Stephen Nissenbaum, professor history at the University of Massachussetts, Amherst, writes, “In return for ensuring massive observance of the anniversary of the Savior’s birth by assigning it to this resonant date, the Church for its part tacitly agreed to allow the holiday to be celebrated more or less the way it had always been.” The earliest Christmas holidays were celebrated by drinking, sexual indulgence, singing naked in the streets (a precursor of modern caroling), etc.

F. The Reverend Increase Mather of Boston observed in 1687 that “the early Christians who first observed the Nativity on December 25 did not do so thinking that Christ was born in that Month, but because the Heathens’ Saturnalia was at that time kept in Rome, and they were willing to have those Pagan Holidays metamorphosed into Christian ones.”[3] Because of its known pagan origin, Christmas was banned by the Puritans and its observance was illegal in Massachusetts between 1659 and 1681.[4] However, Christmas was and still is celebrated by most Christians.

G. Some of the most depraved customs of the Saturnalia carnival were intentionally revived by the Catholic Church in 1466 when Pope Paul II, for the amusement of his Roman citizens, forced Jews to race naked through the streets of the city. An eyewitness account reports, “Before they were to run, the Jews were richly fed, so as to make the race more difficult for them and at the same time more amusing for spectators. They ran… amid Rome’s taunting shrieks and peals of laughter, while the Holy Father stood upon a richly ornamented balcony and laughed heartily.”[5]

H. As part of the Saturnalia carnival throughout the 18^th and 19^th centuries CE, rabbis of the ghetto in Rome were forced to wear clownish outfits and march through the city streets to the jeers of the crowd, pelted by a variety of missiles. When the Jewish community of Rome sent a petition in1836 to Pope Gregory XVI begging him to stop the annual Saturnalia abuse of the Jewish community, he responded, “It is not opportune to make any innovation.”[6] On December 25, 1881, Christian leaders whipped the Polish masses into Antisemitic frenzies that led to riots across the country. In Warsaw 12 Jews were brutally murdered, huge numbers maimed, and many Jewish women were raped. Two million rubles worth of property was destroyed.

Edited December 25, 2011 by ERayR

[mfbukowski]

I think that the "magic of Christmas" is about as valid as any "Spirit", but OK. Sure, I get a good feeling. I feel like my life is enhanced in some way....

Religious practices are thinks we humans do. I think they have value just like most other things we do have value. It may or may not be the value you ascribe to it,

And what value do you think I "ascribe to it"?

but I don't think your religious beliefs place a real, bona fide limit on the domain of possible benefits of the practice to everyone else.

I'm not sure what you mean here. It seems you are here again ascribing beliefs to me that I may or may not have.

I suspect there is some presupposition here about what are usually termed "the truth claims of the LDS church" but I would like to put that aside for a bit if we can. In fact, these "truth claims" are usually seen by TBM's as secondary to the "enhancement " that spiritual feelings provide.

In fact I think most TBM's like me are little concerned about the alleged "truth claims" at all and find their veracity irrelevant. Those who are former Mormons on the other hand, I think, concentrate almost exclusively on the "data" in favor or against the church as they see it. I think the difference between the two groups almost becomes an issue of personality types more than anything else- hence the intransigence on both sides.

How do these "good feelings" enhance your life?

Why do you permit Christmas "good feelings" to enhance your life when the truth claims about Christmas are no better founded scientifically than other truth claims of the LDS church?

[Flyonthewall]

It's beginnings didn't.

How Did Christmas Come to Be Celebrated on December 25?

A. Roman pagans first introduced the holiday of Saturnalia, a week long period of lawlessness celebrated between December 17-25. During this period, Roman courts were closed, and Roman law dictated that no one could be punished for damaging property or injuring people during the weeklong celebration. The festival began when Roman authorities chose “an enemy of the Roman people” to represent the “Lord of Misrule.” Each Roman community selected a victim whom they forced to indulge in food and other physical pleasures throughout the week. At the festival’s conclusion, December 25^th, Roman authorities believed they were destroying the forces of darkness by brutally murdering this innocent man or woman.

B. The ancient Greek writer poet and historian Lucian (in his dialogue entitled Saturnalia) describes the festival’s observance in his time. In addition to human sacrifice, he mentions these customs: widespread intoxication; going from house to house while singing naked; rape and other sexual license; and consuming human-shaped biscuits (still produced in some English and most German bakeries during the Christmas season).

C. In the 4^th century CE, Christianity imported the Saturnalia festival hoping to take the pagan masses in with it. Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians.[2]

D. The problem was that there was nothing intrinsically Christian about Saturnalia. To remedy this, these Christian leaders named Saturnalia’s concluding day, December 25^th, to be Jesus’ birthday.

E. Christians had little success, however, refining the practices of Saturnalia. As Stephen Nissenbaum, professor history at the University of Massachussetts, Amherst, writes, “In return for ensuring massive observance of the anniversary of the Savior’s birth by assigning it to this resonant date, the Church for its part tacitly agreed to allow the holiday to be celebrated more or less the way it had always been.” The earliest Christmas holidays were celebrated by drinking, sexual indulgence, singing naked in the streets (a precursor of modern caroling), etc.

F. The Reverend Increase Mather of Boston observed in 1687 that “the early Christians who first observed the Nativity on December 25 did not do so thinking that Christ was born in that Month, but because the Heathens’ Saturnalia was at that time kept in Rome, and they were willing to have those Pagan Holidays metamorphosed into Christian ones.”[3] Because of its known pagan origin, Christmas was banned by the Puritans and its observance was illegal in Massachusetts between 1659 and 1681.[4] However, Christmas was and still is celebrated by most Christians.

G. Some of the most depraved customs of the Saturnalia carnival were intentionally revived by the Catholic Church in 1466 when Pope Paul II, for the amusement of his Roman citizens, forced Jews to race naked through the streets of the city. An eyewitness account reports, “Before they were to run, the Jews were richly fed, so as to make the race more difficult for them and at the same time more amusing for spectators. They ran… amid Rome’s taunting shrieks and peals of laughter, while the Holy Father stood upon a richly ornamented balcony and laughed heartily.”[5]

H. As part of the Saturnalia carnival throughout the 18^th and 19^th centuries CE, rabbis of the ghetto in Rome were forced to wear clownish outfits and march through the city streets to the jeers of the crowd, pelted by a variety of missiles. When the Jewish community of Rome sent a petition in1836 to Pope Gregory XVI begging him to stop the annual Saturnalia abuse of the Jewish community, he responded, “It is not opportune to make any innovation.”[6] On December 25, 1881, Christian leaders whipped the Polish masses into Antisemitic frenzies that led to riots across the country. In Warsaw 12 Jews were brutally murdered, huge numbers maimed, and many Jewish women were raped. Two million rubles worth of property was destroyed.

I realize its beginnings were from pagan origins, but similarly, Christmas can be separated from its religious beginnings to move towards a secular meaning....IF one is willing.

[california boy]

It's beginnings didn't. How Did Christmas Come to Be Celebrated on December 25? A. Roman pagans first introduced the holiday of Saturnalia, a week long period of lawlessness celebrated between December 17-25. During this period, Roman courts were closed, and Roman law dictated that no one could be punished for damaging property or injuring people during the weeklong celebration. The festival began when Roman authorities chose “an enemy of the Roman people” to represent the “Lord of Misrule.” Each Roman community selected a victim whom they forced to indulge in food and other physical pleasures throughout the week. At the festival’s conclusion, December 25^th, Roman authorities believed they were destroying the forces of darkness by brutally murdering this innocent man or woman. B. The ancient Greek writer poet and historian Lucian (in his dialogue entitled Saturnalia) describes the festival’s observance in his time. In addition to human sacrifice, he mentions these customs: widespread intoxication; going from house to house while singing naked; rape and other sexual license; and consuming human-shaped biscuits (still produced in some English and most German bakeries during the Christmas season). C. In the 4^th century CE, Christianity imported the Saturnalia festival hoping to take the pagan masses in with it. Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians.[2] D. The problem was that there was nothing intrinsically Christian about Saturnalia. To remedy this, these Christian leaders named Saturnalia’s concluding day, December 25^th, to be Jesus’ birthday. E. Christians had little success, however, refining the practices of Saturnalia. As Stephen Nissenbaum, professor history at the University of Massachussetts, Amherst, writes, “In return for ensuring massive observance of the anniversary of the Savior’s birth by assigning it to this resonant date, the Church for its part tacitly agreed to allow the holiday to be celebrated more or less the way it had always been.” The earliest Christmas holidays were celebrated by drinking, sexual indulgence, singing naked in the streets (a precursor of modern caroling), etc. F. The Reverend Increase Mather of Boston observed in 1687 that “the early Christians who first observed the Nativity on December 25 did not do so thinking that Christ was born in that Month, but because the Heathens’ Saturnalia was at that time kept in Rome, and they were willing to have those Pagan Holidays metamorphosed into Christian ones.”[3] Because of its known pagan origin, Christmas was banned by the Puritans and its observance was illegal in Massachusetts between 1659 and 1681.[4] However, Christmas was and still is celebrated by most Christians. G. Some of the most depraved customs of the Saturnalia carnival were intentionally revived by the Catholic Church in 1466 when Pope Paul II, for the amusement of his Roman citizens, forced Jews to race naked through the streets of the city. An eyewitness account reports, “Before they were to run, the Jews were richly fed, so as to make the race more difficult for them and at the same time more amusing for spectators. They ran… amid Rome’s taunting shrieks and peals of laughter, while the Holy Father stood upon a richly ornamented balcony and laughed heartily.”[5] H. As part of the Saturnalia carnival throughout the 18^th and 19^th centuries CE, rabbis of the ghetto in Rome were forced to wear clownish outfits and march through the city streets to the jeers of the crowd, pelted by a variety of missiles. When the Jewish community of Rome sent a petition in1836 to Pope Gregory XVI begging him to stop the annual Saturnalia abuse of the Jewish community, he responded, “It is not opportune to make any innovation.”[6] On December 25, 1881, Christian leaders whipped the Polish masses into Antisemitic frenzies that led to riots across the country. In Warsaw 12 Jews were brutally murdered, huge numbers maimed, and many Jewish women were raped. Two million rubles worth of property was destroyed.

I do find it ironic when Christians talk about the war on Christmas to take the religious meaning out of Christmas by the commerciaization of the holiday when in fact, it is the Christians that stole the holiday and made it a religious one.

[Mudcat]

I do find it ironic when Christians talk about the war on Christmas to take the religious meaning out of Christmas by the commerciaization of the holiday when in fact, it is the Christians that stole the holiday and made it a religious one.

The "war on Christmas", IMO, isn't so much the commercialization of it, rather it's the general attempt by the politically correct to avoid language that would imply Christianity... i.e.(Holiday Season rather than Christmas Season, Holiday Trees vs. Christmas Trees and that sort of thing).

I dunno if I would call it a war though, it just seems to me that there are a lot of people who want to remove Christianity from Christmas. It's the same folks that thought the 10 commandments in public places and prayer in schools were bad ideas.

I get a bit perturbed at how effective minority rule is. It's pathetic really.

I was unaware Christmas was jacked from the "Saturnicans?" way back. I am glad it worked out to be a civilized celebration of Christ's birth and I am glad we have it.

[bluebell]

I do find it ironic when Christians talk about the war on Christmas to take the religious meaning out of Christmas by the commerciaization of the holiday when in fact, it is the Christians that stole the holiday and made it a religious one.

Saturnalia was a religious holiday to begin with. It honored saturn, a roman deity.

[sethpayne]

Even if it's just teaching their kids about Santa, or giving gifts and buying a tree?

Does it enhance their lives some way? Give them a good feeling? Allow them to experience the "magic of Christmas" as a kind of counterfeit Spirit?

Is that an admission that certain "religious" practices have value in themselves?

I have noticed that non-religious Jews celebrate Chanukah, and of course we have other non-religious holidays imbued with ceremony like Kwanzaa, a totally invented, non-traditional holiday, created for this time of year. Most of the practices we follow during Christmas originate in pagan solstice festivals and yet we find a need to celebrate and cherish this holiday.

Most LDS believe that Jesus was born sometime in the early spring, and traditionally of course we often hear it said that he was born on the equivalent of April 6.

Do we as humans need such ceremonies to give us a sense of purpose and joy in our lives?

If so, do religious ceremonies have pragmatic value in themselves to help us find our place in the universe?

And why don't atheists acknowledge that?

Howdy mfbukowski!

I'm not an atheist but I am on the fence as to the reality of Jesus' resurrection and godhood. My wife is a practicing Buddhist. We celebrate Christmas with joy for two reasons:

1) Christmas if part of our western heritage (my wife escaped the communist regime in Vietnam) and is a central part of the culture in which we live. To NOT celebrate or recognize Christmas would be tantamount to ignoring its existence -- a silly proposition in my mind.

2) Christmas is a time to remember the charity Jesus taught and the example of compassion he set for all of us -- agnostics, atheists, Buddhists, etc... There is power in the teachings of Yeshua of Nazareth regardless of whether you accept the metaphysics of it all.

Seth

[thesometimesaint]

Mudcat:

There was a war on Christmas. The peddlers of cheap crap won.

Display the Ten Commandments, or any other religious icon, all you want on your own property.

Pray publically all you want, to any god you want. But don't use the power of the state to force me to pray to your god.

Under our Constitution respect for the rights of the minority is the law.

I like religious freedom too.

[lachrymolotov]

As stated, Christmas was originally a pagan holiday, and all cultures and all religions have certain activities that have a common thread. It is a position of ignorance that would state atheists see no value in any of them, particularly when most atheists in America are celebrating Christmas in some way and most don't care of there are crosses or Christmas trees in public places.

As an atheist, I celebrate Christmas because there is nothing wrong with giving people in your life gifts to show that you appreciate them. Considering the nature of Christmas in America, I think religion takes second stage to a consumerism bordering on the absurd.

Personally, I don't have a problem with crosses on display in public. I doubt I would complain about the Ten Commandments, but they are a little... dated and foolish, in my opinion. If the Old Testament was all that great, why aren't we stoning adulterous women unto death? The problem with the crosses on display is the double-standard. How many Christians are happy to let someone display an upside down cross? How many Muslims would be happy to allow publicly displayed drawings of Mohammed with a shoe on his head?

I think the OP expresses a typical and very narrow-minded viewpoint of atheism. Religious traditions have value in personal and cultural terms. Ideas and rituals of forgiveness and ceremonies that bring people closer together in different ways are important in holding a community together. This is accomplished in many different ways in many different cultures. Even the hippies dropping LSD found a new way to apply old paradigms. Anyone who says that every atheist doesn't acknowledge any value to traditions that bring people together in a positive way is truly misinformed.

Either that, or they are just making up propaganda.

[Brade]

Is that an admission that certain "religious" practices have value in themselves?

Not necessarily.

Do we as humans need such ceremonies to give us a sense of purpose and joy in our lives?

I don't know.

If so, do religious ceremonies have pragmatic value in themselves to help us find our place in the universe?

I think some religious ceremonies have pragmatic value for some people and help those people feel that they have a place in the universe.

And why don't atheists acknowledge that?

Some do. Some don't.

[katherine the great]

While atheists don't believe in God, they do believe in humans and humans have celebrated various events for many thousands of years. The celebrations may or may not be religious in nature and humans are extraordinarily adaptive and seem to be able to put their own spin on every type of human behavior. It is human nature to want to feast and celebrate, so I would think that atheists would find value in most human traditions while still rejecting any religious undertones to those traditions.

[BlueDreams]

I watch the Superbowl because I'm a freaking American, and the Superbowl is a quintessentially American thing. It's one of the things we do. Watching the Superbowl is, to me, almost like an act of partaking in some sort of shared ritual, a celebration of our Americanity. I love the fact that when I watch the Superbowl I'm sharing the experience with essentially the entire country, minus the hippies and communists, and non-true Scotsmen who aren't watching it. ;-)

oops....what if I just told you I...forgot when the superbowl was. every year. No seriously. I don't even have an idea of when it plays.

Personally I could see plenty of reasons for wanting to celebrate Christmas even if you aren't christian....mostly its just fun. Who wouldn't want to put up twinkly lights and eat a tons of comfort food and get presents? It's the same reason you'd want to celebrate the fourth of july in my mind.

[mfbukowski]

I do find it ironic when Christians talk about the war on Christmas to take the religious meaning out of Christmas by the commerciaization of the holiday when in fact, it is the Christians that stole the holiday and made it a religious one.

It's hard to believe that you don't understand that what we call "pagans" had what we call a "religion".

I mean what do you think it was that they were NOT worshiping with their solstice festivals?

[mfbukowski]

I was unaware Christmas was jacked from the "Saturnicans?" way back.

Yeah, but Santa got his revenge! Good post!

[mfbukowski]

Howdy mfbukowski!

I'm not an atheist but I am on the fence as to the reality of Jesus' resurrection and godhood. My wife is a practicing Buddhist. We celebrate Christmas with joy for two reasons:

1) Christmas if part of our western heritage (my wife escaped the communist regime in Vietnam) and is a central part of the culture in which we live. To NOT celebrate or recognize Christmas would be tantamount to ignoring its existence -- a silly proposition in my mind.

2) Christmas is a time to remember the charity Jesus taught and the example of compassion he set for all of us -- agnostics, atheists, Buddhists, etc... There is power in the teachings of Yeshua of Nazareth regardless of whether you accept the metaphysics of it all.

Seth

Hey Seth- good to see you!

Well as you know, I'm sure, that last point of yours is exactly the point I am trying to make.

I feel that the "metaphysics" behind it all ARE in fact "true" but totally unprovable in any scientific sense whatsoever, making the alleged "evidence" for or against these metaphysics pretty much irrelevant.

I think the reasons you've detailed are totally reasonable and I likewise used to celebrate Christmas when I was a total atheist for similar reasons.

But now, based on my spiritual experiences, I have enough subjective "evidence" for my beliefs that I now take it on faith that the metaphysics you mentioned is "true", at least in the sense that these beliefs have changed the course of my life and given my life a meaning I never had before.

But I guess what I am trying to get to here is in the absence of evidence for just about ANY historical grounding for any of this- why NOT accept a pragmatic view and be willing to say "it works for me", for some types of beliefs, as you apparently have, when in fact even atheists do in fact celebrate Christmas for reasons precisely like this?

[coolrok7]

Atheists’ can speak for themselves as some here have. The "religion" of Atheism is that there is no God at all the philosophy of the enemy of our state post the Bolshevik revolution (and those who gave voice to the development of dielectical materialism).

The meaning of Christmas is about Jesus Christ as part of the Godhead and His coming into the world as a man in order to die on the cross. This meaning has no validity at all to the Atheist but it does to Christians:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. . . .And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:1-2, 14)

And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. . . . And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Luke 1:26-27, 30-33)

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: (Colossians 2:8-10)

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. (Matthew 28:18-20)

The follow up to Christmas is around the Jewish Passover (Christianity is fulfilled Judaism) in which we remember the death burial, and resurrection of Jesus which is our salvation brought to pass. Each has the counterparts in the secular remembrance simultaneous to the religious context.

In my view, nationally recognized holidays (Holy Days in some instances with religious connotations), the state and even private employers have seen fit to recognize, remember and acknowledge these by giving paid time off for the celebration of the various holidays from years ago in which modern secularist including Atheists are trying to separate from official state recognition (in which some success has been obtained).

What one derives from these times usually have family traditions involved along with the religious worship of God. To the atheist it has other meanings that can give them a sense of happy family times as well.

Feelings that go along with these times of remembrance are associated with our emotions that we all hold in common. In Christianity, the truthfulness of the reality behind it is not based on our feelings (feelings are involved though in what is derived in the sense of our well being) but the facts of the events are what is recorded in Scripture as well as in the annals of history.

Merry Christmas still has deep spiritual meaning for those of faith in the midst of a secular emphasis of some.

Merry Christmas a day after!

[mfbukowski]

I think the OP expresses a typical and very narrow-minded viewpoint of atheism. Religious traditions have value in personal and cultural terms. Ideas and rituals of forgiveness and ceremonies that bring people closer together in different ways are important in holding a community together. This is accomplished in many different ways in many different cultures. Even the hippies dropping LSD found a new way to apply old paradigms. Anyone who says that every atheist doesn't acknowledge any value to traditions that bring people together in a positive way is truly misinformed.

I think you are misunderstanding the OP. What I am saying is the converse of what you understood.

Let me make it more direct. If atheists accept celebrating Christmas for cultural and pragmatic reasons, why not accept religion for the same reasons?

Is that direct enough?

[mfbukowski]

Some do. Some don't.

Somewhat inconclusive.

[mfbukowski]

While atheists don't believe in God, they do believe in humans and humans have celebrated various events for many thousands of years. The celebrations may or may not be religious in nature and humans are extraordinarily adaptive and seem to be able to put their own spin on every type of human behavior. It is human nature to want to feast and celebrate, so I would think that atheists would find value in most human traditions while still rejecting any religious undertones to those traditions.

And what are the implications of this if God is human? Are human traditions now Godly traditions?

[mfbukowski]

oops....what if I just told you I...forgot when the superbowl was. every year. No seriously. I don't even have an idea of when it plays.

Personally I could see plenty of reasons for wanting to celebrate Christmas even if you aren't christian....mostly its just fun. Who wouldn't want to put up twinkly lights and eat a tons of comfort food and get presents? It's the same reason you'd want to celebrate the fourth of july in my mind.

Good point.

So if church was fun we'd have more "believers"?