mfbukowski Posted January 2, 2012 Author Posted January 2, 2012 So now you are trying to get banned by posting completely off topic posts complaining about being banned.....Does NL stand for "not listening"?Obviously Tarski knows him- seems like it is some kind of experiment? I never thought Mr X was for real.
Xioneye Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Obviously Tarski knows him- seems like it is some kind of experiment? I never thought Mr X was for real.You both know me and know my history MFBUKOWSKI think apocalrock.
mfbukowski Posted January 2, 2012 Author Posted January 2, 2012 You both know me and know my history MFBUKOWSKI think apocalrock.AHA! Ok well stick around- I think your stuff is interesting. Call it creative or shall we just say "different"? But I admire a guy who has his own idiosyncratic word view carved out of.... rock? But I know you are going to preach- that is what you do, so I don't hold out hopes for your future here. But my suggestion is that you say right off the start that you are not LDS or put something like that in your siggy so you will be less misunderstood.
Xioneye Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 AHA! Ok well stick around- I think your stuff is interesting. Call it creative or shall we just say "different"? But I admire a guy who has his own idiosyncratic word view carved out of.... rock? But I know you are going to preach- that is what you do, so I don't hold out hopes for your future here. But my suggestion is that you say right off the start that you are not LDS or put something like that in your siggy so you will be less misunderstood.yeah, if i last another second. here is the latest and its on the opposite side from the Apocalrock and ties it to downtown SLChttp://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=241009405972090&set=a.207245122681852.50267.100001890972926&type=1&ref=nf
mfbukowski Posted January 2, 2012 Author Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) yeah, if i last another second. here is the latest and its on the opposite side from the Apocalrock and ties it to downtown SLChttp://www.facebook....6&type=1&ref=nfCool. Like I said..... "different".... I disagree big time, but after all, you ARE unique....I will make a suggestion. Clean up that facebook description removing the b word (that may be a deal killer for you - I know) and put those links in your siggy so people know exactly where you're coming from from day 1Then watch the preaching- you can criticize, but throw in a lot of "in my opinion" kinds of stuff.That should give you about a week.... Edited January 2, 2012 by mfbukowski
Xioneye Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Cool. Like I said..... "different"....I will make a suggestion. Clean up that facebook description removing the b word (that may be a deal killer for you - I know) and put those links in your siggy so people know exactly where you're coming from from day 1Then watch the preaching- you can criticize, but throw in a lot of "in my opinion" kinds of stuff.That should give you about a week.... Soon as wade see me its over.
mfbukowski Posted January 2, 2012 Author Posted January 2, 2012 Soon as wade see me its over.LOL!Nah, Wade is a lot cooler than you think
Xioneye Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 LOL!Nah, Wade is a lot cooler than you thinkI think I got a pic of Wade's dad:http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/296521_207245126015185_100001890972926_495043_1649910591_n.jpg
Calm Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 There have been those who have been previously banned who have survived further banning, but they have changed their posting style to be in line with board rules. If you don't change, then why bother posting at all as the outcome will be inevitable?
Shelama Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 The values of family, friends, community, love, peace. The importance of sharing and connectedness, not least in the cold and dark of the Winter solstice. The value of subbing for Santa and the joy and relief that brings. Spending time in the kitchen at the Salvation Army. Bringing some connection and joy visting the Draper prison. The joy of freedom of religion and freedom from religion. The values of a merry heart: ...it maketh a cheerful countenance; a continual feast; it doeth good like a medicine. Bring smiles and joy to our Veterans in the nursing home. Enjoying a really, really, really good gift wine like Jesus provided for the wedding at Cana last rather than first. The therapeutic value of baking holiday bread for family and friends. The value of reconnecting with old friends and family too-seldom seen.
Shelama Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Christmas is a creation of culture. I find value in it for reasons similar to what sethbag said, but also because people have an innate need to strengthen social ties and feel like they belong to a group. Christmas makes some people feel awash in connectedness, while others become even more depressed by a heightened sense of their disconnectedness. As an agnostic/atheist I take advantage of all the connectedness I can derive from the season.OR - are you suggesting it might just have something objectively outside of your experience of the holiday that is out of the person's cultural or psychological state-of-being? Is there something that is "Christmas" with a capital "C" that people are sensing and responding to that means an atheist is being subjugated by religion whether they know it or not?BRAVO!!! What in life is more important than community and CONNECTEDNESS? What a terrific post.
mfbukowski Posted January 2, 2012 Author Posted January 2, 2012 The values of family, friends, community, love, peace. The importance of sharing and connectedness, not least in the cold and dark of the Winter solstice. The value of subbing for Santa and the joy and relief that brings. Spending time in the kitchen at the Salvation Army. Bringing some connection and joy visting the Draper prison. The joy of freedom of religion and freedom from religion. The values of a merry heart: ...it maketh a cheerful countenance; a continual feast; it doeth good like a medicine. Bring smiles and joy to our Veterans in the nursing home. Enjoying a really, really, really good gift wine like Jesus provided for the wedding at Cana last rather than first. The therapeutic value of baking holiday bread for family and friends. The value of reconnecting with old friends and family too-seldom seen.Thanks. That pretty well makes my point. Where is your evidence for any of these things? Do you believe in living your life around emotions, without evidence for what is important?
mfbukowski Posted January 2, 2012 Author Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) BRAVO!!! What in life is more important than community and CONNECTEDNESS? What a terrific post.Many would have you believe that evidence for your beliefs is more important. Edited January 2, 2012 by mfbukowski
Shelama Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Thanks. That pretty well makes my point. Where is your evidence for any of these things? Do you believe in living your life around emotions, without evidence for what is important?I can't help it: evolutionary socio-biology provided social mammals with the capacity for empathy, altruism, cooperative social living, a sense of fairness, a sense of sharing, etc. Recently, even rats were demonstrated to exhibit empathy. They're evolutionary traits. We can't help it. Admittedly they compete with aggression, territoriality, possessiveness, dominance, etc. But culture can help allow the former to dominate the latter.
Shelama Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Many would have you believe that evidence for your beliefs is more important.Many would have you believe that evidence for your beliefs is more important.Perhaps thats what you get for listening to the many. On the other hand, some important beliefs and behaviors dervive from evolutionary socio-biology. "Love they neighbor as thyself," for instance. Some people mistakenly believe that was original to Jesus, of course, while actually he got it from Torah and the author of Leviticus. Who, of course, was ultimately expressing an evolutionary imperative. Is life great, or what?
mfbukowski Posted January 2, 2012 Author Posted January 2, 2012 I can't help it: evolutionary socio-biology provided social mammals with the capacity for empathy, altruism, cooperative social living, a sense of fairness, a sense of sharing, etc. Recently, even rats were demonstrated to exhibit empathy. They're evolutionary traits.Not to mention morals and religious impulses. Why do you think that is?Why should you deny what is inside you?
Shelama Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) Not to mention morals and religious impulses. Why do you think that is?Why should you deny what is inside you?I don't at all deny that morals and religious impulses have their roots in evolutionary socio-biology. That's where they both came from of course. Edited January 2, 2012 by Shelama
mfbukowski Posted January 2, 2012 Author Posted January 2, 2012 I don't at all deny that morals and religious impulses have their roots in evolutionary socio-biology. That's where they both came from of course.Then why are you not a believer?This guy believes that morality is a "useful fiction". http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?tid=10894&ttype=2I happen to believe that the gospel is "true", but some also find it a "useful fiction" in the same category with morality.In a scientific context, to show its rationality, I would have no problem arguing that point. Evidence has nothing to do with religious belief.Of course in my heart, what I really believe is that God lives. But in a philosophical language game, the other "works" just as well.
mfbukowski Posted January 2, 2012 Author Posted January 2, 2012 The impulse to be religious is inborn.Critics who condemn it are no better than those who condemn gay people. (assuming that is also "inborn").Is it my fault that you don't have "religious genes"?Is that what it means to be the "blood of Israel", or of the "elect"?
Shelama Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) Then why are you not a believer?This guy believes that morality is a "useful fiction". http://mitpress.mit....d=10894&ttype=2I happen to believe that the gospel is "true", but some also find it a "useful fiction" in the same category with morality.In a scientific context, to show its rationality, I would have no problem arguing that point. Evidence has nothing to do with religious belief.Of course in my heart, what I really believe is that God lives. But in a philosophical language game, the other "works" just as well.But I AM a believer: in community and connectedness. I can't help it. It's an evolutionary trait. Christmas adds an additional cultural twist to the enjoyment.(Actually, methinks there's something missing in your understanding of Richard Joyce) Edited January 2, 2012 by Shelama
mfbukowski Posted January 2, 2012 Author Posted January 2, 2012 But I AM a believer: in community and connectedness. I can't help it. It's an evolutionary trait. Christmas adds an additional cultural twist to the enjoyment.So why condemn believers for having no evidence for their beliefs?That is the entire point of this thread
Shelama Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) So why condemn believers for having no evidence for their beliefs?That is the entire point of this threadPersonally, I'd ask those who do the condemning. Concerning the birth narratives of Matt & Luke, for instance, everybody has precisely the same body of evidence, except for the personal religious experience. Maybe it's how one interprets and values that evidence? I don't know, but since I don't condemn, you're asking the wrong person. Wish I could be more help. Happy New Year! Edited January 2, 2012 by Shelama
mfbukowski Posted January 2, 2012 Author Posted January 2, 2012 Personally, I'd ask those who do the condemning. Concerning the birth narratives of Matt & Luke, for instance, everybody has precisely the same body of evidence, except for the personal religious experience. Maybe it's how one interprets and values that evidence? I don't know, but since I don't condemn, you're asking the wrong person. Wish I could be more help. Happy New Year!I recall many condemning posts you made.And again, evidence is irrelevant, remember? Remember all that evolution stuff? What do you care about the evidence for the Bible- there isn't any that justifies belief in it- you have pointed that out yourself in many posts.Remember this?My studies have found no evidence that anyone with serious, honest, informed, critical study of the Bible ever converts to belief in the Bible based on the conclusions of such study. The only people who conclude in the affirmative are those who already have belief, investment and commitment. It's simple. It's not bashing and it's not pejorative. The CFR is Christian and Mormon history: there are no examples of anybody converting from UNBELIEF to BELIEF based on the conclusions from such study of a common body of evidence. Why? Why do people who have critical knowledge and understanding never convert based on the strength of the evidence alone? What about that evidence leads to the conclusion that the Bible is man-made unless one already believes that it's not?So what is your evidence for your comfort in a sense of "community"?
mfbukowski Posted January 2, 2012 Author Posted January 2, 2012 But why does it never happen the other way? Why does nobody ever convert from UNBELIEF to BELIEF based on the conclusions of serious, critical study of the Bible and Bible evidence? (CFR: Christian and Mormon history)Because evidence for or against the bible is totally irrelevant. All that "counts" is the same SORT of feelings one gets from community and other values. Note I am NOT saying that the feelings are the SAME as a "testimony", I am saying that from a philosophical viewpoint, such feelings cannot be differentiated from those atheists have, and make value judgements, and base beliefs on all the time.
Shelama Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) I recall many condemning posts you made.And again, evidence is irrelevant, remember? Remember all that evolution stuff? What do you care about the evidence for the Bible- there isn't any that justifies belief in it- you have pointed that out yourself in many posts.Remember this?So what is your evidence for your comfort in a sense of "community"?That's not condemnation, it's simply neutral observation with no value judgment at all.From where, or why, should I "remember that evidence is irrelevant"? What?? I've never made nor implied that assertion. The only people I know who say that evidence is irrelevant are those who say the only thing that is important, regardless of evidence, is the spirit. You're using transparent irrelevance to create a strawman that's ridiculously non-sequitur. I have no idea what you're talking about. The quotes of what I've said bear no relevance to whatever the point is you think you're making.The evidence for a sense of comfort in community is that people universally strive for community --to not be alone-- excepting only those with pathological disconnection. (This does not exclude need or desire for occaisonal solitude.) Same as for almost the entire mammalian world. Even for a lot of non-mammalian vertebrates.The common body of evidence regarding the Bible exists. It's not me calling evidence irrelevant, nor is it condemnation to correctly observe that the only people who conclude that that evidence supports the Bible as divine are those who already believe it to be divine. Nor does that say evidence is irrelevant for understanding the Bible or forming opinion. Quite the contrary. Personally, I give people total credit for intelligent consideration of the evidence. But for many believers the evidence is totally irrelevant because they don't even consider it: the only thing that matters for them, the only thing that has relevance, is a spiritual religious experience. Only a minority of the 4-5 million active Mormons even visit FAIR or concern themselves with evidence. And why should the large majority? ...for them, the spirit and the testimony say it all. They don't even need the apologetics or care.Let us know when you actually have a point and begin to make sense. Edited January 3, 2012 by Shelama
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