Non-Lds Scholars Speak Out Against Meldrum

[Scott Lloyd]

My old point remains that if a speaker in a Stake Conference spent twenty minutes explaining the two Cumorah theories he/she'd likely be criticized or censured by local authorities, whereas a speaker testifying to the contrary would not receive any criticism.

I work for a Church-corrollated publication and can tell you with certainty that in this day and age, advocacy about the precise location of the final Nephite and Jeredite battles would not see the light of day there. That is simply because the Church holds no position on specific Book of Mormon geography nor has there ever been a revelation given to the Church pertaining thereto.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Vance]

Charlie "It's all over" Larson whose anti-Mormon hatchet job on the Book of Abraham was pimped all over Utah by the IRR gang? That Charles Larson?

You think he's some kind of objective scholar, I take it?

Regards,

Pahoran

IRR pimping sloppy and dishonest "scholarship"?

I am SHOCKED!! /s

[Pahoran]

My mistake. It was Stan Larson.

And, no, I didn't think Stan's book was objective but really, what is.

Agreed. And yes, whatever problems there might be with Stan's book, it can't possibly be as awful as Charlie's.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Daniel Peterson]

It's been roughly three days since Bob Oliverio last posted here, and I confess that that fact has slightly increased my suspicion that he was a troll of some sort. (It's still very possible, of course, that he wasn't. I myself don't post here every day; there is life -- very satisfying and productive life -- away from message boards.)

It may or may not be just coincidence that, when questions began to be raised here about whether he's really a lawyer, and about whether he was actually a disconcerted new convert (as advertised) or just a cynically posing critic rehashing tired old arguments and distortions and insinuations, he fell silent.

I hope he was for real, and sincere. The pretense and the silly games get pretty wearisome, pretty fast.

[cinepro]

I work for a Church-corrollated publication and can tell you with certainty that in this day and age, advocacy about the precise location of the final Nephite and Jeredite battles would not see the light of day there. That is simply because the Church holds no position on specific Book of Mormon geography nor has there ever been a revelation given to the Church pertaining thereto.

Maybe not in a Church-correlated publication, but there's no telling what they might put in the Deseret News.

[Scott Lloyd]

Maybe not in a Church-correlated publication, but there's no telling what they might put in the Deseret News.

I, of course, was referring to the LDS Church News, not the Deseret News.

And apparently, you're complaining that the Deseret News reported on (not advocated) a theory you don't like. It sounds like you're calling for censorship that accommodates your personal views.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

It's been roughly three days since Bob Oliverio last posted here, and I confess that that fact has slightly increased my suspicion that he was a troll of some sort. (It's still very possible, of course, that he wasn't. I myself don't post here every day; there is life -- very satisfying and productive life -- away from message boards.)

It may or may not be just coincidence that, when questions began to be raised here about whether he's really a lawyer, and about whether he was actually a disconcerted new convert (as advertised) or just a cynically posing critic rehashing tired old arguments and distortions and insinuations, he fell silent.

I hope he was for real, and sincere. The pretense and the silly games get pretty wearisome, pretty fast.

His posts were starting to sound like a blast from the past, Rollo Tomasi's Greatest Hits, or some such thing.

I've noticed that some of our most vociferous critics are fond of nurturing this fanciful scenario about how "apologists" allegedly are doing violence to the tender faith of newly minted converts or ill-informed traditionalists. Sending in a poser to dredge up past arguments would seem to be consistent with that intent.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Bob Oliverio]

It's been roughly three days since Bob Oliverio last posted here, and I confess that that fact has slightly increased my suspicion that he was a troll of some sort. (It's still very possible, of course, that he wasn't. I myself don't post here every day; there is life -- very satisfying and productive life -- away from message boards.)

It may or may not be just coincidence that, when questions began to be raised here about whether he's really a lawyer, and about whether he was actually a disconcerted new convert (as advertised) or just a cynically posing critic rehashing tired old arguments and distortions and insinuations, he fell silent.

I hope he was for real, and sincere. The pretense and the silly games get pretty wearisome, pretty fast.

Mr Peterson,

I honestly have no idea why you would make such a comment. I have been nothing but courteous and respectful in interactions. I work, I have a career and a profession. I spent this past week in NY trying to close a debt deal for a client. We work long hours to negotiate and document large deals and deadlines are critical. I don't have the luxury of spending time on message boards as much as you do I am assuming. I can only guess that you have not spent much time in the private sector but trust me, it is a bit more demanding than academia. We don't get tenure! Based on your post count, you obviously enjoy the freedom to spend a lot of time here, and that's fine with me. But why ridicule someone who's profession does not allow for such?

But I find your remarks even more ironic when you and others here mock me for no reason. You tell me "I just don't get it". Then you create/cast doubt on my actual interest just because I don't reply in accordance with some timetable you seem to think is appropriate. The warmth here, from some, could melt an ice cube in a week or so.

But if I am allowed, going back to the topic, are you or others promoting a theory that the final battle in the BOM took place in latin/south america and Moroni journeyed all the way to NY to bury the plates there? I have never heard that before from anyone in the Church. And with all due respect, that sounds completely ridiculous for many reasons. First, why would he do that - what would be the need? Most all around were killed in the final battle so who would he be running from and why? Why would he not mention it on the golden plates as part of his final entry? But most obvious - what are the chances he could even make/survive such a journey of 3-4 thousand miles that could have taken up to or over 2 years with all the elements, ability to navigate and challenges of survival, all while carrying the golden plates? I mean this sounds like a truly amazing theory with no evidence or rationale supporting it unless I've missed something from the General Conferences I've been around to hear. Have any GAs come out in support of this theory? Are they even aware of it? Where did this theory come from and was it initiated by anyone with any authority or spiritual insight? If this theory had any rationale support, wouldn't it be reasonable to hear our GAs speak to such at General Conference as GAs have done so in the past for Hill Cumorah in NY? Perhaps this is where you tell me "I just don't get it" again? If so, my wife and I seem to be in some really great company in The Church.

[Kevin Christensen]

Moroni would have exactly the same chance of making the journey as David Ingram. "In the mid-sixteenth century, David Ingram, a shipwrecked English sailor, walked in 11 months through completely strange Indian territory from Tampico, Mexico to the St. John river, at the present border between Maine and Canada. His remarkable journey would have been about the same distance as Moroni's over essential the same route. So Moroni's getting the plates to New York even under his own power seems feasible." See John Sorenson, "An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon" (Deseret Book Company and FARMS, Salt Lake City and Provo, 1985), page 45

This information has been around and in print for 27 years. Much discussed and debated.

As to "Most all around were killed in the final battle so who would he be running from and why? " This sounds a bit like you have mixed up the situation of Ether after the Jaredite battles and the situation of Moroni after the fall of the Nephites. Of his own situation, Moroni writes:

Now I, Moroni, after having made an end of abridging the account of the people of Jared, I had supposed ^anot to have written more, but I have not as yet perished; and I make not myself known to the Lamanites lest they should destroy me.

2 For behold, their ^awars are exceedingly fierce among themselves; and because of their ^bhatred they ^cput to death every Nephite that will not deny the Christ.

3 And I, Moroni, will not ^adeny the Christ; wherefore, I wander whithersoever I can for the safety of mine own life.

If Ingram can make the trip without navigation aids, I think a prophet could with divine guidance. Divine guidance doesn't seem like a handicap.

As far as GA support for the theory, we did have Gordon B. Hinkley invite FARMS to formally become part of BYU in 1996. So far, not one LDS General Authority has told us to shut up.

And there is Apostle Dallin Oaks here on the historicity of the Book of Mormon

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=30

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[Bob Oliverio]

Mr Christensen,

How many rivers would Moroni need to have crossed to get to NY?

Did he build a boat each time, carry one with him, or just swim across carrying these golden plates? The Mississippi comes to mind! And with all due respect, I cant help think there's a bit of a difference between what was available to someone in the 16th century as opposed to the 1st century. Just wanted to add some obvious and commen sense to the argument here.

But the other question remains: Why would he have needed to do this?

[Bob Oliverio]

Mr Christensen,

One other point which I'm sure you are aware of, Ingram had a couple of dozen men with him!

[Daniel Peterson]

Mr. Oliverio:

I'm happy to have your assurance that you're for real. Not everybody who comes here to post questions does so with entire sincerity.

Yes, my working theory is that Moroni, who had roughly thirty-five years between the final battle and the burial of the plates, traveled from Mesoamerica to what is today called upstate New York. Why? Because the Lord guided him there. Why did the Lord guide him there? Because that's where Joseph Smith was going to be. Is the notion ridiculous? No. As John Sorenson notes in his Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon, there is an account of a shipwrecked English sailor who traveled essentially the same route in the early 1600s -- at a time when conditions, political and topographical, would have been relatively little changed from the early fifth century -- and it took him roughly eleven months. Hadn't everybody been killed in that great last battle? No. The Nephites were essentially wiped out, but the victorious Lamanites, who were based in the land southward, were still very much alive and very hostile. Moroni's logical route was toward the north.

[Duncan]

Mr Christensen,

One other point which I'm sure you are aware of, Ingram had a couple of dozen men with him!

well one guy or 75 guys walking there in 11 months , what difference does it make? I would assume that with one man walking there would seem easier!

[Anijen]

Mr Christensen,

One other point which I'm sure you are aware of, Ingram had a couple of dozen men with him!

CFR,

I have researched this in three books (none LDS related) and an article in the Christian Science monitor and cannot find any entry that he had two dozen men with him.He did start out with more than one man but ended up IIRC with four. So I call for your source for two dozen men.

I have never heard that before from anyone in the Church.

Then you haven't spoke with everyone, have you?

that sounds completely ridiculous

Perhaps too you it does. My guess is many of the members who have studied the current geography models of the Book of Mormon do not think it is "ridiculous" they might not subscribe to that point of view, but it is far from "ridiculous."

Most all around were killed in the final battle so who would he be running from and why?

Lamanites. Moroni even writes this.

Why would he not mention it on the golden plates as part of his final entry?

He did. But I really do not think he needed to write; " And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, [which will be in Northwestern New York] and there we could give them battle."

I mean this sounds like a truly amazing theory with no evidence or rationale supporting it

There is evidence the David Ingram story is one such. For a lawyer it is pretty astonishing that you dismiss this so hastily. The gathering of all the animals onto an ark and a world flood also sounds in your words "truly amazing theory" and I could find many many people who believe it (not just Christian).

If this theory had any rationale support, wouldn't it be reasonable to hear our GAs speak to such at General Conference

Why would they? It is speculation. The Book of Mormon is to bring people to Christ not to teach geography.

Perhaps this is where you tell me "I just don't get it" again? If so, my wife and I seem to be in some really great company in The Church.

Not so fast, Bob Crockett believes as you do as does Sevenbac, both are great contributors and intelligent, both contribute on this site. The difference is they do not hold a geography theory difference as a crutch against the church or its members. Besides the only time I have ever heard about a geography setting while at church is when I brought it up with a brother sitting next to me and probably can count on one hand how often I've did that.

Besides the topic of this thread is non LDS scholars speaking out against Meldrum. I know two of those scholars and I have read their papers and books regarding artifacts [batcreek stone being one] used by Meldrum to strengthen his position (they are fakes). Meldrum also criticizes those who don't share his opinion and tells them they are weak and do not follow the prophets.

Okay I will step off the soapbox now

Anijen

[Kevin Christensen]

Mr Christensen,

How many rivers would Moroni need to have crossed to get to NY?

Did he build a boat each time, carry one with him, or just swim across carrying these golden plates? The Mississippi comes to mind! And with all due respect, I cant help think there's a bit of a difference between what was available to someone in the 16th century as opposed to the 1st century. Just wanted to add some obvious and commen sense to the argument here.

But the other question remains: Why would he have needed to do this?

I'm pretty sure that logs floated as well in the 5th Century as they do now. Logs are not a recent high tech innovation that solves an otherwise unsurmountable problem.

I personally don't have a problem with Moroni traveling to New York as a lone wanderer or as a resurrected being. The basic need involved was to get the plates to Joseph Smith. Just how and when that occured doesn't matter that much.

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[Freedom]

Mr Christensen,

How many rivers would Moroni need to have crossed to get to NY?

Did he build a boat each time, carry one with him, or just swim across carrying these golden plates? The Mississippi comes to mind! And with all due respect, I cant help think there's a bit of a difference between what was available to someone in the 16th century as opposed to the 1st century. Just wanted to add some obvious and commen sense to the argument here.

But the other question remains: Why would he have needed to do this?

I do not understand why you would even consider posting this argument. I have crossed lakes with 14 year old boys on hand made rafts tied together with a hope and a prayer. If God wanted him to get there, God would have provided for him. He could have met native tribes that would have helped him along the way. He may have been in a group that were migrating together. Just wanted to add some obvious and common sense to the argument here.

[MMMillie]

In general, how do scholarly papers supporting truth claims regarding the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham by BYU/Neal Maxwell and other Mormon authors and scholars fare when it comes to publication within 1st-tier, professional, peer-reviewed journals? Such as in archeology or religion?

Sock puppet

Edited January 14, 2012 by Minos

[Scott Lloyd]

At this point I'm wondering why Bob Oliverio is so passionately wedded to the belief that the final Nephite battles took place in present-day New York. It is as though he thinks that to accept the validity of Mormonism -- or to be a faithful Latter-day Saint -- one has to agree with him. I don't see this sort of dogmatism among Book of Mormon meso-American theory proponents. It strikes me as excess.

[Kevin Christensen]

In general, how do scholarly papers supporting truth claims regarding the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham by BYU/Neal Maxwell and other Mormon authors and scholars fare when it comes to publication within 1st-tier, professional, peer-reviewed journals? Such as in archeology or religion?

Daniel Peterson has discussed this, and related issues here. Read to the end.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=18&num=2&id=621

And there have been further publications by LDS scholars since then. John Welch's book on The Sermon on the Mount as a Temple Text,

http://www.ashgate.com/isbn/9780754651642

or John Sorenson's paper here:

http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp195_mesoamerica.pdf

Also consider thevisible presence at meetings of the Society for Biblical Literature, where LDS themed sections have been organized and papers have been read.

And of course things like Terryl Givens and Grant Hardy's books on the Book of Mormon being published by Oxford University Press.

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[Bob Crockett]

Mr Christensen,

One other point which I'm sure you are aware of, Ingram had a couple of dozen men with him!

Maybe you are thinking of Cabeza de Vaca who arrived with four men after being shipwrecked with 300 men. His is an example of crossing a continent with the help of local tribes.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Bob Crockett

[Tepui]

This is an interesting discussion. I hope I'll be allowed to join in. I 'googled' David Ingram and discovered this site: http://h2g2.com/dna/h2g2/A1143488%7C as well as at wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ingram_(explorer) .

Both mention Ingram had 2 dozen men with him. Three, including Ingram, survived reaching Nova Scotia. Ingram was originally part of 100 castaways, which split into two groups, one of which later split into two, thus the 2 dozen which went north.

[poulsenll]

Although this thread is about non mormon crticism of Meldrum's model, his model hinges on the assumption that Moroni never wandered far from the BofM Cumorah. The enclosed diagram from the Church HIstroy LIbrary does not agree with this assumption. I have personally handled this diagram and an accompanying copy. The original diagram can be dated based on a notation on the back. It was drawn sometime in 1872 at the Sevier in Utah and shows a proposed route followed be Moroni as he traved from Central America to New York. This route coincides with the Camino Real from Mexico to Utah and the North American indian trade routes from Utah to New York. Although the diagram includes a reference to the KInderhook Plates it does not invalidte the balance of the figure because in in 1872, these plates were thought by most members to be related the Book of Mormon and the author of the diagram, in all likelyhood included them simply because the location where they were found fell on the route presumably originating from the Prophet Joseph Smith as claimed by the author of the diagram.

One of the obvious ways for Moroni to hide from the Lamanites was to disguise himself as a trader, and directed by the Lord, follow the trade routes in order to get to the place where Joseph would later find them. There is some additional evidence among the myths of the Southwest United States that support this possiblity but that is a subject for another thread.

Although this figure does not come from outside the Church, it is just one of many facts that disagrees with Meldrum's assumptions.

Moroni's Travels 1.pdf

Larry P

Edited January 14, 2012 by poulsenll

[Tepui]

Although this figure does not come from outside the Church, it is just one of many facts that disagrees with Meldrum's assumptions.

Moroni's Travels 1.pdf

Larry P

Interesting. Who was the author in Sevier, Utah of this 1872 map? Is it known? Could it have been a member of the Mormon Battalion which marched through Arizona (Tucson) then to California?

It also appears from the map, that Moroni traveled directly from Central America to Southern Arizona, then to Independence, MO then to New York.

Yet, the description, if I read it correctly says:

"Moronies travel from Starting from Sentral America up to the sand hills Arizony thence to Salt Lake, UT."

Yet the map shows no direct "line" from Southern Arizona to SLC, UT. It contradicts itself.

I'm not disagreeing this in the Church archives, but just noticed the difference between the map and its written description.

[poulsenll]

It was drawn by Patriarch McBride a Patriarch in southern Utah. A 2nd map copied from this one corrects that problem showing a route from soouthern Arizona to Utah. It is also in the Church History Library and was apparently placed there by the same person who placed the first one. There is also a Journal written bt an aquaintence of McBride that describes the same features shown on the maps. There is a complete description in Jon Lund's book "Mesoamerica and the Book of Mormon: Is This the Place?". He does not include the info that dates the first map but does include the Journal citations.

Larry P

[Tepui]

Is this the same "McBride" who wrote in his journal:

The phrase 'known from the Atlantic to the Rocky Mountain,' as in the McBride diary,

from this Maxwell article? http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=39

If it is, then McBride was with Joseph Smith during Zion's Camp?

I just did a google search for McBride. I'm addicted to google, I guess. (A result notes BMAF also mentions McBride and Bro. Lund's book).