Non-Lds Scholars Speak Out Against Meldrum

[Bill Hamblin]

I don't agree. I don't believe any LDS scholar is serious, who claims a 3,500 foot peak in Mesoamerica is the Hill Cumorah. There is no evidence it was selected by revelation, merely by scholarship. It's too high to look down from and covered with dense foliage.

You can criticize my statement "that it's a mind game" but I've come to that conclusion when looking at the facts that allegedly support the as yet unproven LGT theory. One's mind has to accept the unprovable. If you were offended by that, I'm sorry. But I'm sure the scholars you know have long weathered criticism from in and out of the Church. I believe that should be expected of any serious scholar who defends his/her work of any subject from critics.

I also believe your and Brother Hamblin's criticizing my last statement is a red herring and an attempt to label me (as a nincompoop) to divert attention away from the unprovable assertion that Cerro Vigiia is the Hill Cumorah. It's an important part of the LGT theory but a very very weak assertion. It's part of the question which Brother Oliverio had been asking about the Hill Cumorah - for from it it's alleged Moroni traveled to New York.

I've already dis-proven to one person here who claimed Brother Oliverio was incorrect when he stated David Ingram had a dozen companions. He was claimed to be incorrect when a simple internet search proved him to be correct. Yet that was then dismissed as being unimportant. A mind game. Pick and choose facts, and change the rules for submitting these facts as evidence for or against a theory-as one goes along. At the risk of again offending, I believe that is disingenuous.

In reply to Anijen, my profile will answer your question of my membership. I do not subscribe to a limited geography model which Dr. Sorenson has described as being about 500 miles in length. I subscribe to one located in the Northern Hemisphere because that is where the Hill Cumorah is located. I am also interested in the truth, not a theory.

In reply, which model do you subscribe to Anijen? And why?

Thank you. Respectfully, Tepui

Feel free to believe any theory you want.

But please stop calling those who disagree with you liars. That is sheer nincompoopery.

And the Cerro Vigiia is the protoi-Hill Cumorah is an extraordinarily minor part of the LGT. It's merely a suggestion, not a lynchpin. There are plenty of other options.

[Tepui]

When did I call anyone a LIAR! I resent that! I suggest you retract your statement. And quickly!

You're not presenting yourself very well here, Bill Hamblin - and for someone has over 3,ooo posts and is a contributor!

I was pointing out what you just now cannot defend. Cerro Vigia is in Dr. Sorenson's work:

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=16&num=2&id=554

Since Sorenson bases his acceptance of Cerro el Vigia on Palmer's work,⁴⁹

Footnote 49 refers to

"Sorenson, Ancient American Setting, 350."

And you've proven my point:

A mind game. Pick and choose facts, and change the rules for submitting these facts as evidence for or against a theory-as one goes along

[Bill Hamblin]

Don't worry Brother Oliverio. The whole LGT theory is nothing other than some intellectual mind game. Just play along.

It's rather obvious you're calling those who believe in the LGT liars. You claim it's just a game. We don't really take it seriously or really believe it. The clear implication is that we must be liars if we say we do believe it and take it seriously.

[Tepui]

And the Cerro Vigiia is the protoi-Hill Cumorah is an extraordinarily minor part of the LGT. It's merely a suggestion, not a lynchpin. There are plenty of other options.

I repeat: "There are other options." You obviously don't believe it. It's just a suggestion.

What other part of the theory that you believe in is "just a suggestion?"

[ERayR]

Another thing to remember is that there were over thirty years between the last conflict of the Nephites and the burial of the plates (Morm. 6:5; Moroni 10:1). For all we know Moroni could have settled the Mississippi River Valley, raised a family, become a merchant, slowly migrated northward, or perhaps even gone to bury the plates in his later years with the help of his sons, who could have been in their late twenties by this time. Now, of course, all of this is pure speculation, but nonetheless entirely plausible. Therefore, there's no reason to assume that Moron by made the trek to the Hill Camorra in New York under duress, or in the shortest time possible.

That of course is after he dedicated the St. George temple site.

[ERayR]

I don't agree. I don't believe any LDS scholar is serious, who claims a 3,500 foot peak in Mesoamerica is the Hill Cumorah. There is no evidence it was selected by revelation, merely by scholarship. It's too high to look down from and covered with dense foliage.

Doesn't look to me like it is covered with dense foliage. In fact it looks rather open.

http://www.mindspring.com/~kimball3/cumorah.html

[Bill Hamblin]

I repeat: "There are other options." You obviously don't believe it. It's just a suggestion.

What other part of the theory that you believe in is "just a suggestion?"

The suggestion is that a specific hill in Mesoamerica is the hill Cumorah. If it happens to be a different hill 10 miles away it makes no difference to the LGT at all. It's very simple.

[Tepui]

The suggestion is that a specific hill in Mesoamerica is the hill Cumorah. If it happens to be a different hill 10 miles away it makes no difference to the LGT at all. It's very simple.

What's simple is that anything that can be refuted as part of the LGT theory that you believe becomes a suggestion.

[poulsenll]

I don't agree. I don't believe any LDS scholar is serious, who claims a 3,500 foot peak in Mesoamerica is the Hill Cumorah. There is no evidence it was selected by revelation, merely by scholarship. It's too high to look down from and covered with dense foliage.

You might like to get your facts correct. The Hill Vigia locared at lat 18.456 long -95.351 is only 2700 ft above sea level at its peak and 2450 ft above ground level at its location. Even today it is sparcely covered by vegetaion with little or no vegetation at the peak. It's name "Vigia" means lookout peak in English.

There is little doubt that from the peak one could survey the surrounding area (relatively flat) for miles in any direction.

You might want to check it out for your self in Google Earth.

Larry P

Edited January 22, 2012 by poulsenll

[ERayR]

What's simple is that anything that can be refuted as part of the LGT theory that you believe becomes a suggestion.

Again your statement that said hill is densly wooded is obviously a misstatement. See Link. http://www.mindspring.com/~kimball3/cumorah.html

By the way why are you so rabidly against the LGT and a mesoamerican setting?

[Tepui]

Doesn't look to me like it is covered with dense foliage. In fact it looks rather open.

http://www.mindsprin...l3/cumorah.html

No need to worry about any it longer ERayR. Bill Hamblin who is published at the Maxwell Institute (http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/search/?fulltext=Bill+Hamblin&search=Go), believes the Cerro Vigia proposed by Dr. Sorenson in his book An Ancient Setting is just a suggestion.

[Tepui]

Again your statement that said hill is densly wooded is obviously a misstatement. See Link. http://www.mindsprin...l3/cumorah.html

By the way why are you so rabidly against the LGT and a mesoamerican setting?

Because I'm interested in the truth. Not suggestions.

[ERayR]

You might like to get your facts correct. The Hill Vigia locared at lat 18.456 long -95.351 is only 2700 ft above sea level at its peak and 2450 ft above ground level at its location. Even today it is sparcely covered by vegetaion with little or no vegetation at the peak. It's name "Vigia" means lookout peak in English.

There is little doubt that from the peak one could survey the surrounding area (relatively flat) for miles in any direction.

You might want to check it out for your self in Google Earth.

Larry P

See my link in posts 256 and 260.

Edited January 22, 2012 by ERayR

[ERayR]

Because I'm interested in the truth. Not suggestions.

Truth is discovered by investigating suggestions.

[Bill Hamblin]

No need to worry about any it longer ERayR. Bill Hamblin who is published at the Maxwell Institute (http://maxwellinstit...mblin&search=Go), believes the Cerro Vigia proposed by Dr. Sorenson in his book An Ancient Setting is just a suggestion.

I can see this is utterly pointless.

[Tepui]

I can see this is utterly pointless.

Yes. You made molehill out of a mountain.

Tepui has left the building.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Minos

[Bob Oliverio]

However, if the Ingram story is true, that provides a quite unmiraculous parallel story that demonstrates the plausibility of Moroni's proposed journey.

Many things are plausible given enough "if's".  But in my opinion there is very little parallel comparing a journey of two dozen, well seasoned explorers, in the 16th century to that of a single sojourn in the 5th century.  To many reasons to elaborate here but I trust most would readily acknowledge the vast differences between the two supposed accounts.  

A few dozen wouldn't have been enough to have fended off a serious attack by a determined enemy. I don't see such a number as much more viable than one alone -- particularly if he were a trained and experienced and vigorous warrior, determined to be stealthy, and even more so if -- as he might well have had, being on a divinely-ordained errand -- he had Help.

Divine intervention will always trump facts  and reason in any conversation so there's little reason to question your argument or reasons above.  But it  also can be used equally to defend any argument.  And one could just as easily question why Moroni needed to travel at all for the discovery of the plates to occur.  Divine intervention could have been used to bring Joseph Smith to the plates in central america, a much easier journey in the 19th century.  Every argument is plausible if we claim divine intervention.

And I have no reason to challenge the credentials of Mr Sorenson as I've really never heard of him before. But when it comes to using a questionable "Ingram account", which took place a thousand years later, as a basis for conclusion, I have to be honest, and question whether he found his conclusion based on research or, found his research based on a conclusion.

Furthermore, it is possible to sail a canoe up the coast of Mexico, then up the Mississippi River, then up the Ohio River to within less than 100 miles of modern Palmyra. There is simply no reason to think that he walked this entire distance.

How does one go about "sailing" (or paddling) a canoe, in the fifth century, upstream on one of the worlds greatest down stream flow rate rivers on a log(s) to the mouth of the Ohio?  I cant help to conclude there is a little more to the plausibility to such theory than simply finding a contiguous water route.  Elements, seasons, duration, desire, reason, navigational knowledge and size of biceps come to mind. 

For all we know Moroni could have settled the Mississippi River Valley, raised a family, become a merchant, slowly migrated northward, or perhaps even gone to bury the plates in his later years with the help of his sons, who could have been in their late twenties by this time. Now, of course, all of this is pure speculation, but nonetheless entirely plausible. Therefore, there's no reason to assume that Moron by made the trek to the Hill Camorra in New York under duress, or in the shortest time possible.

 

It seems like all this is really stretching for plausibility when we start creating these types of "what if's".  Anything is possible of course, but for one who seemed to ensure this history was recorded and preserved to make no mention of this fantastic journey and 30+ years of additional history in the plates just asks for too much in my opinion.  Particularly if he went on to raise a family, a settlement and became a merchant! There is just simply too much reason  and common sense going against this theory to make it believable for me.  Because I find little rationale and factual information to support this journey, I thinks one is better off arguing divine intervention for this claim of a supposed fantastic journey for which we have no evidence to support.

[livy111us]

Wow, this thread really took a nose dive in common sense.

[Pahoran]

Yes. You made molehill out of a mountain.

You are clearly not making a good faith effort to actually discuss anything. You pour scorn and ridicule upon those who advocate for a limited Mesoamerican geography, but are remarkably shy about disclosing where, if anywhere, you believe the events described in the Book of Mormon took place. You flat-out accuse LGT advocates of not believing what they argue -- i.e. you call them liars and say they are merely playing games -- but as the quote above shows, you are the one playing games. Your one attempt at providing actual data for discussion has failed; your description of the Cumorah candidate under discussion was seriously inaccurate.

Do you have anything worth contributing at all?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Daniel Peterson]

Many things are plausible given enough "if's".

And, since there is a gap of roughly thirty-six years between the final Nephite battle and the close of the Book of Mormon narrative, we can do nothing but speculate.

You can't come up with an account of that period in Nephi's life that won't be just as full of "ifs" as any that the rest of us come up with -- though, personally, I think it's fairly obvious that Moroni, the son of the late Nephite commander-in-chief (and himself a Nephite commander), would have been remarkably foolhardy to have remained, for more than three and a half decades while he was working on the final version of an effectively anti-Lamanite record that the Lamanites had always wanted to destroy, in close proximity to a battlefield on which the Lamanites had sought (quite successfully) to exterminate the Nephites.

But in my opinion there is very little parallel comparing a journey of two dozen, well seasoned explorers, in the 16th century to that of a single sojourn in the 5th century.

How do you know how many people traveled with Moroni?

And how, please, were the technology and topography substantially different in the sixteenth century from the fifth century?

To many reasons to elaborate here but I trust most would readily acknowledge the vast differences between the two supposed accounts.

Do you have an actual account of Moroni's journey from Mesoamerica to what is now upstate New York? I've never heard of one.

Divine intervention could have been used to bring Joseph Smith to the plates in central america, a much easier journey in the 19th century.

Because of airplanes? Because of buses and cars? Because of the newly opened super highways? Because of the friendly border officials? Because, even, of the steam ships that regularly plied the waters between upstate New York and Guatemala in 1828?

And I have no reason to challenge the credentials of Mr Sorenson as I've really never heard of him before.

He's worth reading.

How does one go about "sailing" (or paddling) a canoe, in the fifth century,

Why do you keep bringing "the fifth century" up, as if the laws of physics and/or the geography of North America were somehow fundamentally different then?

upstream on one of the worlds greatest down stream flow rate rivers on a log(s) to the mouth of the Ohio?

You're not seriously going to argue -- are you? -- that, prior to modern times, nobody was able to navigate northwards up the Mississippi River . . .

Anyway, it's purely speculative to suggest that he might have gone up the Mississippi River. Nothing hinges on that. He could have gone overland -- including, even, on the banks of the Mississippi. He could have gone up the Atlantic seaboard. Heck, he had time to circumnavigate the globe a few times, and to have come in from a sojourn in Iceland or the Bahamas. He had thirty-six years.

It seems like all this is really stretching for plausibility when we start creating these types of "what if's".

We don't have the luxury of working from your actual account of the thirty-six years separating the last Nephite battle from the close of the Book of Mormon account. If you'll share the document with us, we'll be as free of "what if's" as you are.

IAnything is possible of course, but for one who seemed to ensure this history was recorded and preserved to make no mention of this fantastic journey and 30+ years of additional history in the plates just asks for too much in my opinion.

Have you really not looked at the dates at the bottom of the pages in your copy of the Book of Mormon? The estimated date given in my copy for the final Nephite battle (under Mormon 7) is "About A.D. 385." The final date given at the end of the book is "About A.D. 421."

We haven't invented "30+ years" out of nothing. You've got thirty-six years, just as we do. Unless, of course, you reject the book.

Particularly if he went on to raise a family, a settlement and became a merchant!

Which was, obviously, pure just-for-fun speculation. A lot can happen in thirty-six years. A lot almost certainly did happen in thirty-six years. That's more than half of a normal human lifetime.

If you're insisting that Moroni didn't raise a family and/or didn't settle anywhere for nearly four decades and/or didn't trade with anybody and/or didn't change locations for thirty-six years, you're speculating just as much as anybody else is.

There is just simply too much reason and common sense going against this theory to make it believable for me.

I would encourage you, in that case, to share some of your reasons and common sense.

What interests me even more, though, I confess, is why you care about this. There are thirty-six pretty much blank years at the end of the Book of Mormon narrative. What do you care, really, about how some people speculate that those years were spent? How does that threaten you?

.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Daniel Peterson

[Freedom]

What interests me even more, though, I confess, is why you care about this. There are thirty-six pretty much blank years at the end of the Book of Mormon narrative. What do you care, really, about how some people speculate that those years were spent? How does that threaten you?.

In his defense, there were 30 pretty much blank minutes between the time the movie ended and when my daughter arrived home from the date on Friday and the thought of speculating over what occurred during those minutes filled me with horror. For the sake of my sanity, therefore, I concluded that my clock was wrong and she in fact came right home, read her scriptures, said her prayers and dreamed of temple work. I see no reason why I cannot take this same very reasonable and logical approach in reading the Book of Mormon.

[Anijen]

when it comes to using a questionable "Ingram account

I would like to remind you of two CFRs out there for you to answer or retract your statements..

Edited January 23, 2012 by Anijen

[Bob Oliverio]

I would like to remind you of two CFRs out there for you to answer or retract your statements..

I'm aware that some have doubted the Ingram account' date=' and that can be debated. [/quote']

(with my acknowledgement Mr Peterson. But this guy/gal was not buying anything I said)

[Daniel Peterson]

(with my acknowledgement Mr Peterson. But this guy/gal was not buying anything I said)

Meaning no disrespect, I find the statement above a bit opaque.

Are you citing me as your reference to support your claim that "most" dispute Ingram's account? Because, if so, I don't know that. In fact, I have no reason, as of now, to believe it to be true. And, furthermore, my acknowledgment that "some have doubted the Ingram account," which you cite, doesn't say that.

.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Daniel Peterson

[JNclone]

If we are discussing whether or not Moroni made a very long journey to transport the golden plates from Central America to New York, then in judging whether that is likely one might call on different kinds of evidence. But surely the most crucial source must be the Book of Mormon itself?

In this post, I bring together what seem to be the most relevant texts, in particular those that refer explicitly to the writing or ‘hiding up’ of plates, or to travel by Moroni. After each extract I present provisional conclusions, with a final conclusion at the end. I hope that this effort may be of some use in advancing the current discussion.

Please note that I write what follows on the hypothesis that the Book of Mormon is an authentic ancient text written by the persons named in the text as having done so – at least in the case the writings of Mormon and Moroni, whose testimony is used in the discussion below, and who were closely concerned with the final editing, writing and ‘hiding up’ of the text.

DOCUMENT A:

Words of Mormon:

Mormon abridges the large plates of Nephi—He puts the small plates with the other plates—King Benjamin establishes peace in the land. About A.D. 385.

1 And now I, Mormon, being about to deliver up the record which I have been making into the hands of my son Moroni, behold I have witnessed almost all the destruction of my people, the Nephites.

2 And it is many hundred years after the coming of Christ that I deliver these records into the hands of my son; and it supposeth me that he will witness the entire destruction of my people. But may God grant that he may survive them, that he may write somewhat concerning them, and somewhat concerning Christ, that perhaps some day it may profit them.

[…]

5 Wherefore, I chose these things, to finish my record upon them, which remainder of my record I shall take from the cplates of Nephi; and I cannot write the hundredth part of the things of my people.

6 But behold, I shall take these plates, which contain these prophesyings and revelations, and put them with the remainder of my record, for they are choice unto me; and I know they will be choice unto my brethren.

[…]

9 And now I, Mormon, proceed to finish out my record, which I take from the plates of Nephi; and I make it according to the knowledge and the understanding which God has given me.

PROVISIONAL CONCLUSION

Here Mormon is still clearly in circumstances secure enough to allow him to look forward to doing a great deal of work. Although the Nephites have suffered much from the Lamanites, the ‘entire destruction’ of his people is still in the future. Mormon still envisages passing the whole of what he has written to Moroni , who he hopes will add something to it.

=========================

DOCUMENT B

Mormon 6

The Nephites gather to the land of Cumorah for the final battles—Mormon hides the sacred records in the hill Cumorah—The Lamanites are victorious, and the Nephite nation is destroyed—Hundreds of thousands are slain with the sword. About A.D. 385.

1 And now I finish my record concerning the destruction of my people, the Nephites. And it came to pass that we did march forth before the Lamanites.

[…]

5 And when three hundred and eighty and four years had passed away, we had gathered in all the remainder of our people unto the land of Cumorah.

6 And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

[…]

10 And it came to pass that my men were hewn down, yea, even my ten thousand who were with me, and I fell wounded in the midst; and they passed by me that they did not put an end to my life.

11 And when they had gone through and hewn down all my people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow, when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps, from the top of the hill Cumorah, the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me.

PROVISIONAL CONCLUSION:

Around AD 385, Mormon hid the majority of the plates in his possession by burying them at the hill Cumorah – this being the location of the final stand and massacre of the Nephites. A small number of plates were passed to Moroni. This represents a change in the plan made at the time of the Words of Mormon, under which he had intended to give his son all the plates.

After that, disaster fell, and all but 24 of the Nephites died. The words recorded above were written or dictated by the wounded (and we may deduce from Moroni’s later references) dying Mormon.

DOCUMENT C:

Moroni 1

Moroni writes for the benefit of the Lamanites—The Nephites who will not deny Christ are put to death. About A.D. 401–21.

1 Now I, Moroni, after having made an end of abridging the account of the people of Jared, I had supposed not to have written more, but I have not as yet perished; and I make not myself known to the Lamanites lest they should destroy me.

2 For behold, their wars are exceedingly fierce among themselves; and because of their hatred they put to death every Nephite that will not deny the Christ.

3 And I, Moroni, will not deny the Christ; wherefore, I wander whithersoever I can for the safety of mine own life.

4 Wherefore, I write a few more things, contrary to that which I had supposed; for I had supposed not to have written any more; but I write a few more things, that perhaps they may be of worth unto my brethren, the Lamanites, in some future day, according to the will of the Lord.

PROVISIONAL CONCLUSION:

Moroni still seems to be in the general vicinity of the Lamanite group that massacred the Nephites, since he has to take care to “make not [himself] known to the Lamanites lest they should destroy [him]”, and he is also in a position to know about their internal warfare and religious persecution. He makes no reference to any long-distance travel. Such travel as he does carry out is for ‘the safety of mine own life’.

===========================

DOCUMENT D

Mormon 8

The Lamanites seek out and destroy the Nephites—The Book of Mormon will come forth by the power of God—Woes pronounced upon those who breathe out wrath and strife against the work of the Lord—The Nephite record will come forth in a day of wickedness, degeneracy, and apostasy. About A.D. 400–421.

1 Behold I, Moroni, do finish the record of my father, Mormon. Behold, I have but few things to write, which things I have been commanded by my father.

2 And now it came to pass that after the great and tremendous battle at Cumorah, behold, the Nephites who had escaped into the country southward were hunted by the Lamanites, until they were all destroyed.

3 And my father also was killed by them, and I even remain alone to write the sad tale of the destruction of my people. But behold, they are gone, and I fulfil the commandment of my father. And whether they will slay me, I know not.

4 Therefore I will write and hide up the records in the earth; and whither I go it mattereth not.

5 Behold, my father hath made this record, and he hath written the intent thereof. And behold, I would write it also if I had room upon the plates, but I have not; and ore I have none, for I am alone. My father hath been slain in battle, and all my kinsfolk, and I have not friends nor whither to go; and how long the Lord will suffer that I may live I know not.

6 Behold, four hundred years have passed away since the coming of our Lord and Savior.

7 And behold, the Lamanites have hunted my people, the Nephites, down from city to city and from place to place, even until they are no more; and great has been their fall; yea, great and marvelous is the destruction of my people, the Nephites.

8 And behold, it is the hand of the Lord which hath done it. And behold also, the Lamanites are at war one with another; and the whole face of this land is one continual round of murder and bloodshed; and no one knoweth the end of the war.

[…]

14 And I am the same who hideth up this record unto the Lord; the plates thereof are of no worth, because of the commandment of the Lord. For he truly saith that no one shall have them to get gain; but the record thereof is of great worth; and whoso shall bring it to light, him will the Lord bless.

PROVISIONAL CONCLUSION:

We are fifteen years after the final destruction. Apparently the other Nephites fled southwards after the battle at Cumorah, and were destroyed. Moroni did not go with them. He says the following things in this order:

• he will ‘write and hide up the records in the earth’
  
• it does not matter where he goes
  
• he has in fact nowhere to go.
  

There is no reference to his removing the records previously deposited in the hill Cumorah (the battle site) by his father. There is no reference to any considerable journey being planned in order to find another site to deposit the records. Also, when he says ‘my father hath made this record’, it is clear that what he writes is intended to be placed together with what Mormon had already written. The most economical interpretation is that Moroni will simply add what he writes to the records that his father had already “hid up in the hill Cumorah”.

==================================

DOCUMENT E

Moroni 1

Moroni writes for the benefit of the Lamanites—The Nephites who will not deny Christ are put to death. About A.D. 401–21.

1 Now I, Moroni, after having made an end of abridging the account of the people of Jared, I had supposed not to have written more, but I have not as yet perished; and I make not myself known to the Lamanites lest they should destroy me.

2 For behold, their wars are exceedingly fierce among themselves; and because of their hatred they put to death every Nephite that will not deny the Christ.

3 And I, Moroni, will not deny the Christ; wherefore, I wander whithersoever I can for the safety of mine own life.

4 Wherefore, I write a few more things, contrary to that which I had supposed; for I had supposed not to have written any more; but I write a few more things, that perhaps they may be of worth unto my brethren, the Lamanites, in some future day, according to the will of the Lord.

[…]

PROVISIONAL CONCLUSION:

We have no indication of date for this chapter. It might be that the whole of Moroni is to be dated as indicated in the final chapter – see below. But in any case, Moroni is writing this after having performed a major literary task in producing the Book of Ether by.’ abridging the account of the people of Jared’ since the final disaster of his people. (I pass over the problems that might be raised about how he found the materials to write on: Mormon 8:5 ‘And behold, I would write it also if I had room upon the plates, but I have not; and ore I have none, for I am alone.’). He still appears to be in the general vicinity of the Lamanites who fought the Nephites, since he is careful not to ‘make [himself] known’ to them. The only travel referred to is ‘wander[ing] whithersoever [he] can’. This does not sound like a long-range journey in a known direction. What is more, such travelling as he does do is said to be ‘for the safety of [his] own life’ – not to transport the plates to a safe destination where they may be deposited.

DOCUMENT F:

Moroni 10

A testimony of the Book of Mormon comes by the power of the Holy Ghost—The gifts of the Spirit are dispensed to the faithful—Spiritual gifts always accompany faith—Moroni’s words speak from the dust—Come unto Christ, be perfected in him, and sanctify your souls. About A.D. 421.

1 Now I, Moroni, write somewhat as seemeth me good; and I write unto my brethren, the Lamanites; and I would that they should know that more than four hundred and twenty years have passed away since the sign was given of the coming of Christ.

2 And I seal up these records, after I have spoken a few words by way of exhortation unto you.

[…]

PROVISIONAL CONLCUSION

Moroni’s final act of deposit is made twenty years later than the writing of document D: we are now 35 years after the battle at Cumorah. Once more, he says nothing about a long journey to a distant destination, as opposed to ‘wander[ing] whithersoever [he] can’. Nor is there any mention of his having moved the plates deposited by his father at the hill Cumorah (the one explicitly identified as the site of the final battle) to a new site, with all the labor and planning that would have involved. Given the length of text in Moroni, into which he copies two letters of his father (chs 8, 9), his lack of reference to a journey or a change of place of deposit cannot have been due to lack of time or writing materials.

OVERALL CONCLUSION:

The writings of Mormon make it clear that although he may have intended simply to hand over his plates to his son Moroni, under the clear threat from the Lamanites as the final battle neared he decided to deposit them in the hill Cumorah, and give only some plates to Moroni. Whatever plates Moroni had with him after the massacre cannot have been bulky enough to handicap him in his immediate flight from the scene.

For the next thirty-five years Moroni simply says he is, in effect, wandering around with no fixed destination. He makes no reference to digging up his father’s plates and taking them elsewhere. He tells us that he will also hide what he has written in the earth, and he implies that his own writings will be placed with those of his father.

The only references to travel refer to wandering from place to place in the attempt to stay out of the way of Lamanites, for the sake of his own safety. The plates are not mentioned as playing a role in his travels. Nor has he a particular destination in mind: he has not ‘whither to go’.

If we are sure for other reasons that the battle at Mormon’s Cumorah took place in Central America, a long way from Joseph Smith’s Cumorah, the text of the Book of Mormon does not logically exclude the possibility that the required long journey, with Moroni transporting the plates for reburial, could have taken place. But the texts available to us in the Book of Mormon do nothing to suggest that such an anabasis actually happened, and both by what they say and by what they fail to say they point to a much less dramatic state of affairs, in which only a single Cumorah is involved – the Cumorah at which Joseph Smith eventually found the plates.