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Terrestrial Requirements During the Millennium


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My understanding has always been that the "fire" which will cleanse the earth will be the Fire of the Holy Ghost. His power will overwhelm the wicked and the earth will be left in a terrestrial state. Wickedness (on the gross level) will disappear, though there will still be imperfections and sin. But major sins like murder, immorality, thievery, deceit, etc will be abolished. That is, until the end part of the Millennium when Satan will be loosed -- with help -- for a little season ( and who knows how long that is) and then cast into the pit forever.

I have never been a fan of the "rapture" version of the cleansing but if that is true, then I can live with it. MW

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The Terrestrial kingdom and the Terrestrial world are two different things that share a lot of common characteristics.

The world will be Terrestrial during the Millennium, but it will not be the Terrestrial kingdom. That "place" won't even exist until after the last udgement, when those who are prepared for it will be sent there.

If you've been to the Temple, think about the transition from the "lone and dreary world" to the Terrestrial world (not kingdom). There's more light, symbolic of the greater obedience people in that world have to the laws of the rightful king, Jesus Christ.

All who find themselves in the Terrestrial world will be "good people" but they will not all be Saints (although we will be running a very strong missionary effort, and many—if not most or even all of them—will join His Church).

Lehi

The temple is specific in that it actuallu uses the words "telestial kingdom" and "terrestrial kingdom" when describing the world now and in the millennium. This is a common misunderstanding.

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The temple is specific in that it actuallu uses the words "telestial kingdom" and "terrestrial kingdom" when describing the world now and in the millennium.

Not at the point to which I referred.

The word is "world" in this specific case, and several others.

Lehi

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I don't know about "in his mind", but "in this case", no. Every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess that "Jesus is the king", but not necessarily "the Christ" in the Terrestrial world of the Millennium.

Missionaries will be active (more even than now), and there will be huge numbers of converts, but it is not a requirement that all those who live during the Millennium will be Saints.

There will be no theft because there will be no thieves, no lies because no liars. There will be no adultery for a lack of adulterers, no blasphemy due to there being no blasphemers. All of the evils in the world will be missing from the Terrestrial world of the Millennium because those who are evil will have been exterminated, irrespective of religion, nationality, race, or sex. Those who remain will be temporally righteous, including Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, Saints, Catholics, and even a few Baptists along with the rest. Locksmithing may be a lost profession, as will private investigation and law. On the other hand, there will be a huge demand for genealogists and transcriptionists. Because of the Baptists, inter alia., there will remain a demand for pastors and imams, priests and vedics. Medicine will be an empty profession: no need for pediatricians nor for obstetricians (although midwifery will remain a valid practice) and none for orthopedic surgeons.

Lehi

Hello Lehi,

I know of no scripture that says that Christ will be known as the "King" only, but the scripture says the "Christ." With that said, I can see how it is possible, especially if you draw from early Prophets. I studied the millennium recently and was disappointed at what I was finding. It is common knowledge that there will be no war, it will be a time of peace with Christ always in our presence, etc.. All we will be doing is praising God and doing Temple work (generally speaking). But, past Prophets describe it to be something that I see as being very similar to how things are right now.

Joseph Smith said that there will be wicked men.

"There will be wicked men on the earth during the thousand years. The heathen nations who will not come up to worship will be visited with the judgments of God, and must eventually be destroyed from the earth". (The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 268-269)

There will be people who don't have a knowledge of the Gospel:

But there will be need for the preaching of the gospel, after the millennium is brought in, until all men are either converted or pass away. (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols., edited by Bruce R. McConkie [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954-1956], 1: 86.)

Isaiah 65:20 says that there will be sinners who will be accursed

There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

"Isaiahs description of life and death during the Millenium seems to preserve the concept that even then--even in that blessed day when satan is bound and righteousness overflows--even then men are free to come out in open rebellion and, as sinners, suffer the fate reserved for the sons of perdition." Millenial Messhiah pg 646

The second battle of Gog and Magog at the end of the millennium will have some of the most wicked mortals who have ever lived on the earth.

"The wicked will not all be destroyed at the coming of Christ and also there will be wicked [people] during the Millenium" Words of Joseph Smith, pg 75

Orson Pratt said "Will it be possible for men to sin during the millenium? Yes. Why? Because they have not lost their agency. Agency always continues wherever intelligent beings are, whether in heaven, on the earth, or among any of the creations that God has made." JD 16:319-20

Joseph Fielding Smith: “many of [the Millennial inhabitants of the earth], will be like the Nephites who lived 200 years after the coming of Christ. They will rebel against the Lord knowingly . . . . [T]hey will act with their eyes open and because they love darkness rather than light, and so they become sons of perdition. Satan will gather his hosts, both those on the earth and the wicked dead who will eventually also be brought forth in the resurrection” (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:87).

Many have thought that all will believe in the revelations of the Lord Jesus Christ when the kingdom of God is fully established; but they will not; and if those characters were in heaven, they might believe, but would not obey the revelations of Jesus Christ. There are multitudes in this Church who have not yet learned these truths; and there are multitudes in the world who would not know Jesus, were he to pass before their eyes, and would not understand what he meant, if he were to speak to them. Such will be the case in the millennium. (Brigham Young, October 7, 1857. Journal of Discourses 5:330)

When all nations are so subdued to Jesus that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess, there will still be millions on the earth who will not believe in him; but they will be obliged to acknowledge his kingly government. You may call that government ecclesiastical, or by whatever term you please; yet there is no true government on earth but the government of God, or the holy Priesthood. Shall I tell you what that is? In short, it is a perfect system of government—a kingdom of Gods and angels and all beings who will submit themselves to that government. (Brigham Young, May 22, 1859. Journal of Discourses 7:142)

Other religious beliefs and religions:

Will there be Methodists there? Yes; and they will have the privilege to worship a God without body, parts, and passions, just as they do now, if they choose to. Every person and every community will receive according to the extent of their capacity and ability. Every person then will be blessed, will be filled with joy, will be filled with peace, with light, and intelligence according to the endowments with which they are endowed. Will all become kings and priests? No; not even all that will embrace the fulness of the Gospel.

Brigham Young, August 16, 1868, Journal of Discourses Vol. 12, p.274

If the Latter-day Saints think, when the kingdom of God is established on the earth, that all the inhabitants of the earth will join the church called Latter-day Saints, they are egregiously mistaken. I presume there will be as many sects and parties then as now. Still, when the kingdom of God triumphs, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ, to the glory of the Father. Even the Jews will do it then; but will the Jews and Gentiles be obliged to belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? No; not by any means. Jesus said to his disciples, "in my Father's house are many mansions; were it not so I would have told you; I go to prepare a place for you, that where I am, there ye may be also," &c. There are mansions in sufficient numbers to suit the different classes of mankind, and a variety will always exist to all eternity, requiring a classification and an arrangement into societies and communities in the many mansions which are in the Lord's house, and this will be so for ever and ever. Then do not imagine that if the kingdom of God is established over the whole earth, that all the people will become Latter-day Saints. They will cease their persecutions against the Church of Jesus Christ, and they will be willing to acknowledge that the Lord is God, and that Jesus is the Savior of the world. (Brigham Young, December 23, 1866. Journal of Discourses 11:275)

Of course, this is only taking the "negative" comments about the millennium by Prophets. There are some contradictions with what other Prophets have said, and sometimes they contradict themselves. I tend to write these off since they are not scripture and stick with what we know from canon. If not, I don't think the millennium would be as glorious as most think.

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I then thought how odd it would be to be present during the millennium and not have a testimony of Christ. After all he will rule and install a government. We will all look to him to lead us. Can a person who doesn’t have a testimony of Christ be present during the millennium and live with all of us that do? Satan will be bound because of the righteousness of those who are present during the millennium. He will not be able to tempt us. Can Satan be bound by good people who don’t believe in Christ and have not received his gospel?

Sweetpotatoh.

Keep in mind that, apparently, Muslims also believe in the second coming of Jesus:

Muslims believe that Isa (Jesus) will return at a time close to the end of the world. The Qur'anic verse they allude to as an indicator to Isa' future return is as follows:[5]

"And when the son of Mary is quoted as an example, behold! the folk laugh out,

And say: Are our gods better, or is he? They raise not the objection save for argument. Nay! but they are a contentious folk.

He is nothing but a slave on whom We bestowed favour, and We made him a pattern for the Children of Israel.

And had We willed We could have set among you angels to be viceroys in the earth.

And lo! verily there is knowledge of the Hour. So doubt ye not concerning it, but follow Me. This is the right path.

And let not Satan turn you aside. Lo! he is an open enemy for you.

When Jesus came with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), he said: I have come unto you with wisdom, and to make plain some of that concerning which ye differ. So keep your duty to Allah, and obey me.

Lo! Allah, He is my Lord and your Lord. So worship Him. This is a right path.

But the factions among them differed. Then woe unto those who do wrong from the doom of a painful day.

Await they aught save the Hour, that it shall come upon them suddenly, when they know not?

Friends on that day will be foes one to another, save those who kept their duty (to Allah)."

—Qur'an sura 43 (
), ayah 57-67

According to Islamic tradition which describes this graphically, Jesus' descent will be in the midst of wars fought by the Mahdi (lit. "the rightly guided one"), known in Islamic eschatology as the redeemer of Islam, against the Antichrist (al-Masīh ad-Dajjāl, "False messiah") and his followers.[27] Jesus will descend at the point of a white arcade, east of Damascus, dressed in yellow robes – his head anointed. He will then join the Mahdi in his war against the Antichrist. Jesus, considered as a Muslim, will abide by the Islamic teachings. Eventually, Jesus will slay the Antichrist, and then everyone from the People of the Book (ahl al-kitāb, referring to Jews and Christians) will believe in him. Thus, there will be one community, that of Islam.[28]

After the death of the Mahdi, Jesus will assume leadership. This is a time associated in Islamic narrative with universal peace and justice. Islamic texts also allude to the appearance of Ya'juj and Ma'juj (known also as Gog and Magog), ancient tribes which will disperse and cause disturbance on earth. God, in response to Jesus' prayers, will kill them by sending a type of worm in the napes of their necks.[27] Jesus' rule is said to be around forty years, after which he will die. Muslims will then perform the funeral prayer for him and then bury him in the city of Medina in a grave left vacant beside Muhammad, Abu Bakr, and Umar (companions of Muhammad and the first and second Sunni caliphs (Rashidun) respectively).[5]

So anyone expecting a mass-conversion of Muslims at the second coming might be surprised by how unsurprised they are.

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Thank you for all of the comments.

Cinepro. I think that righteous people who believe in Jesus will be there. Regardless of sect or religion. That doesn't preclude religions who don't necessarily worship Jesus by name but rather worship him through another name. I believe that there are religions who worship Christ, they just refer to him by another name.

I have wondered if the fire at the coming of Christ is literal or spiritual? I have never read of a prophet who has said it is spiritual.

I understand that there will be 2 main efforts, temple work and missionary work so obviously there will be those who we will try to convert to the Gospel.

I mean to say that they worship God through Jesus Christ.

Edited by sweetpotatoh
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So anyone expecting a mass-conversion of Muslims at the second coming might be surprised by how unsurprised they are.

True, but they may be surprised to have him set up house in and LDS temple and politely instruct them to change religions.

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Why would the scriptures say that the wicked will be destroyed at His coming,if it really means they will be converted? In some things I am a literalist.Flood destroying the wicked in Noah's day. Fire destroying the wicked at the Second Coming.Note ,however, that it didn't take long after the Flood for there to be a bunch of unrighteous again

Edited by blackstrap
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I can't wrap my mind arround how Christ will come, set up up a global ruling government, and people will still not believe. That just doesn't add up. Is Christ's identity going to be oscured in some way? When they are compelled to submit to Christ's earthly government, what kind of idiot would say "I don't believe you are real"?

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I can't wrap my mind arround how Christ will come, set up up a global ruling government, and people will still not believe. That just doesn't add up. Is Christ's identity going to be oscured in some way? When they are compelled to submit to Christ's earthly government, what kind of idiot would say "I don't believe you are real"?

It's not believing he is real that will be the problem. It will be actual submission to him religiously and not just in a political sense. People aren't logical. People drink, smoke, and eat their way to their own deaths despite knowing that it would be smarter to do something else. Most of us know people who do stupid things or don't do obvious things that could make their lives better. One of them is probably ourselves. I know I have problems like that.

This is why I do not want the Book of Mormon proved true and I think that is why God has withheld proof. We'd get a horde of baptisms because it is "true" but how many would actually be converted. Many less-actives now have a testimony but don't live any of it.

I think the Church will be stricter on the requirements for baptism in the Millenium plus it will require entrance into Consecration in whatever form analogous to the United Order we will have at the time.

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In addition to what I wrote in my last post in this thread, it's my personal opinion the "fire" (which, once again, I interpret to be a spiritual fire) to destroy the wicked began spreading when Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith that spring morning in 1820.

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[Terrestrial world and Terrestrial kingdom] are used in both scripture and in the temple. For all we know, the temple is speaking of the same exact place.

No, it's not.

But forum rules and my own sensitivities preclude my explaining why this is an erroneous view.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
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The temple uses both "terrestrial kingdom" and "terrestrial world" in the endowment same as the scriptures also use these same two terms.

While true, it is not true, nor does it follow, that the two phrases refer to the same thing just because they share the same adjective. The Terrestrial kingdom is a post-resurrection state, while the Terrestrial world is that of the Millennium. The people who are in that world are mortal, whether they are those actually there or those who are participating.

The world we live in now is explicitly identified as the Telestial world: it is subject to telestial law and is subject to Satan's power as far as people will allow him to rule (and it is obvious that they do). The change to the Terrestrial world has nothing to do with resurrection, it happens prior to death, hence, the Terrestrial world is not the same thing as the Terrestrial kingdom.

Lehi

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While true, it is not true, nor does it follow, that the two phrases refer to the same thing just because they share the same adjective. The Terrestrial kingdom is a post-resurrection state, while the Terrestrial world is that of the Millennium. The people who are in that world are mortal, whether they are those actually there or those who are participating.

The world we live in now is explicitly identified as the Telestial world: it is subject to telestial law and is subject to Satan's power as far as people will allow him to rule (and it is obvious that they do). The change to the Terrestrial world has nothing to do with resurrection, it happens prior to death, hence, the Terrestrial world is not the same thing as the Terrestrial kingdom.

Lehi

I tend to disagree. The world we now live in is defined specifically as the "telestial kingdom" and also the "telestial world" according to the temple. Thw world room at the temple is explained that it (the room) represents the "telestial kingdom" or the world in which we now live in.

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The world we now live in is defined specifically as the "telestial kingdom" and also the "telestial world" according to the temple. Thw world room at the temple is explained that it (the room) represents the "telestial kingdom" or the world in which we now live in.

Your post already goes about a half step beyond where I am willing to tread, so I won't respond further than to say I still believe you are wrong on this.

Lehi

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Why would the scriptures say that the wicked will be destroyed at His coming,if it really means they will be converted? In some things I am a literalist.Flood destroying the wicked in Noah's day. Fire destroying the wicked at the Second Coming.Note ,however, that it didn't take long after the Flood for there to be a bunch of unrighteous again

Exactly! The wicked will be destroyed at His coming but the righteous that remain will continue to give birth to souls still receiving their opportunity with free agency in tact. Even those born in Christ's church need to go through a conversion process.

I personally believe the fire can easily be literal. Have you ever studied volcanoes with this scripture study in mind?! Just sayin', good stuff. But we do not have a difinitive answer to whether it is literal or not. My suggestion and personal choice~ "stand in holy places" and "present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." :good:

Edited by Nominee
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While true, it is not true, nor does it follow, that the two phrases refer to the same thing just because they share the same adjective. The Terrestrial kingdom is a post-resurrection state, while the Terrestrial world is that of the Millennium. The people who are in that world are mortal, whether they are those actually there or those who are participating.

The world we live in now is explicitly identified as the Telestial world: it is subject to telestial law and is subject to Satan's power as far as people will allow him to rule (and it is obvious that they do). The change to the Terrestrial world has nothing to do with resurrection, it happens prior to death, hence, the Terrestrial world is not the same thing as the Terrestrial kingdom.

Lehi

Agreed; And I think you have done a great job explaining. Also the temple talk was beginning to get uncomfortable so I do appreciate the call to cease and desist. Thank you, Lehi.

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Your post already goes about a half step beyond where I am willing to tread, so I won't respond further than to say I still believe you are wrong on this.

Lehi

I understand your position, that is fine. The temple information I was giving is basic knowledge stuff that is given to anyone willing to attend an open house temple walk-through or do a minimal amount of study about it online. I do however know that the language used in the temple is exactly as I have said. Now as to how we define the exact wording in its context is up for grabs..I guess. The endowment is supposed to be the complete plan of salvation explained. Now of course all three kingdoms are part of the endowment, the only main difference is that instead of being assigned to them after being saved, we progress through them in order to be saved.

Edited by Rob Osborn
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In addition to what I wrote in my last post in this thread, it's my personal opinion the "fire" (which, once again, I interpret to be a spiritual fire) to destroy the wicked began spreading when Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith that spring morning in 1820.

Any thoughts on this?

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Your post already goes about a half step beyond where I am willing to tread, so I won't respond further than to say I still believe you are wrong on this.

Lehi

You believe, I believe, all the church material believes, every conference talk on the matter believes, and every LDS scholar who has written on the subject believes he is wrong. But he certainly has given me the motivation to study the matter more closely. Nevertheless, it is curious to me that the same term is used when the conditions between the telestial world and the telestial kingdom are so dramatically different.

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My understanding has always been that the "fire" which will cleanse the earth will be the Fire of the Holy Ghost. His power will overwhelm the wicked and the earth will be left in a terrestrial state. Wickedness (on the gross level) will disappear, though there will still be imperfections and sin. But major sins like murder, immorality, thievery, deceit, etc will be abolished. That is, until the end part of the Millennium when Satan will be loosed -- with help -- for a little season ( and who knows how long that is) and then cast into the pit forever.

I have never been a fan of the "rapture" version of the cleansing but if that is true, then I can live with it. MW

I don't think you can say that Joseph Smith ever adopted the Rapture eschatology, either, a doctrine that was invented years after Smith died. Smith believed in a more gradual process in which a world-wide political kingdom would be established on the earth, and people of all religions would live in peace under a benevolent king (guided by revelation from Jesus) and a multi-denominational legislature. There would be great wars before the Millennium, of course, but Zion would always be protected, and there would none of this Evangelical "fire from heaven" nonsense.

It depends on how you define a "Terrestrial" world, but you could say that the world has steadily been headed in that direction since about the end of World War II--and even before that, there had been important trends in that direction such as the elimination of slavery and a decrease in murder rates. The pockets of truly evil people in the world are shrinking, and we are left with a huge majority of basically decent people. Wars, when they occur, are sometimes bad, but not nearly as bad as they used to be, and the bad guys like bin Laden or Qadaffi tend to get killed. Yes, there is more porn than there used to be, but I think realistically there is going to be porn in any Terrestrial world in which the Internet exists. Which is worse: porn or Nazis? In almost every matter, the trend has been toward the development of a world-wide state of peace.

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