Is There Enough Revelation?

[Monster]

Do you find enough revelation coming from the prophet and other leaders that you can sustain them as Prophets, Seers, Revelators? And are anecdotal stories over the pulpit at conference sufficient for you? Does hearing about people showing up at a meeting that were not suppose to be there constitute divine intervention? Is a story of finding $5.00 in a pair of pants inspiring enough for you? Does the revelation we are getting teach us about the nature of God and expand our theology? Do we know more about God than we did 150 years ago from continuing revelation?

I am looking for something to hang my hat on that says this is modern day revelation, but I just do not see it. Maybe you do.

[LeSellers]

Do you find enough revelation coming from the prophet and other leaders that you can sustain them as Prophets, Seers, Revelators?

Absolutely.

This recent conference saw the announcement of more Temples, of the appointment of new General and Area Authorities, and several other products of revelation. What more do we need? (Indeed, what more are we prepared to accept and use?)

are anecdotal stories over the pulpit at conference sufficient for you?

If the situation is appropriate, then, yes, although we are far from bereft of additional "substantive" revelation".

Does hearing about people showing up at a meeting that were not suppose to be there constitute divine intervention?

Should I not? Apparently, you imagine that this was completely random. I cannot ascribe it to chance.

Is a story of finding $5.00 in a pair of pants inspiring enough for you?

It depends on the situation. There have been times that finding $5.00 would have been miraculous in my own life. Why not in others'?

Does the revelation we are getting teach us about the nature of God and expand our theology?

It does teach us about the nature of God, but in different ways for each person receiving the revelation or hearing of it.

As to "expand[ing] our theology", I am unconvinced our theology needs expansion. Everything we can understand is, I believe, available right now. I know of no one who can fully grasp the infinite, and we're quite near that "limit" right now.

Do we know more about God than we did 150 years ago from continuing revelation?

We may not, but then, I was not alive 150 years ago. So, first, my own knowledge (in mortality) is much greater than it was then, and second, I believe that even prophets and Apostles must learn what is in the scriptures and other extant sources before we should expect more information, and I have little doubt that we have, as I said, all (or very nearly so) of what a mortal can comprehend.

What is it that is "missing", in your view?

Lehi

[CV75]

I am looking for something to hang my hat on that says this is modern day revelation, but I just do not see it.

Sometimes it helps to consider how a statement from the pulpit conflicts with a revelation you received.

[zerinus]

Do you find enough revelation coming from the prophet and other leaders that you can sustain them as Prophets, Seers, Revelators?

Yes.

And are anecdotal stories over the pulpit at conference sufficient for you?

By themselves, no. And they are not all that many either.

Does hearing about people showing up at a meeting that were not suppose to be there constitute divine intervention?

By itself, no. And it is not what I "hand my hat on" either.

Is a story of finding $5.00 in a pair of pants inspiring enough for you?

By itself, no. See above.

Does the revelation we are getting teach us about the nature of God and expand our theology? Do we know more about God than we did 150 years ago from continuing revelation?

I think we know as much about God as we need to, or God wants us to know at the present time. "The revelations we are getting" are not meant to tell us some great mystery about God that we didn't know before; they are meant to tell us what we need to do to be approved of Him. It is along the lines of the commandment the Lord gave in D&C 19:31: "And of tenets thou shalt not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost."

I am looking for something to hang my hat on that says this is modern day revelation, but I just do not see it. Maybe you do.

The Lord has given us a clue how we tell if a teaching is from God or not:

D&C 50:

17 Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?

18 And if it be by some other way it is not of God.

19 And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?

20 If it be some other way it is not of God.

21 Therefore, why is it that ye cannot understand and know, that he that receiveth the word by the Spirit of truth receiveth it as it is preached by the Spirit of truth?

22 Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together.

23 And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness.

D&C 53:

14 And again, I will give unto you a pattern in all things, that ye may not be deceived; for Satan is abroad in the land, and he goeth forth deceiving the nations—

15 Wherefore he that prayeth, whose spirit is contrite, the same is accepted of me if he obey mine ordinances.

16 He that speaketh, whose spirit is contrite, whose language is meek and edifieth, the same is of God if he obey mine ordinances.

That is how I can tell if the messages I hear at General Conference come from God or not. That is how anybody can tell. If you are looking for some earth-shaking revelation, you will be disappointed, because that is not the Lord's way of doing things.

[Duncan]

I was thinking of this just the other day. We have a prophet but the RCC has the Pope and other Churches have leaders, does our Prophet say anything that I don't hear in other Churches? As wonderful as new Temples are and new brethren and sisters are called and I don't for a second doubt the authenticity of their callings, i don't see that as something all that different when other Church hire on new people. I think personal, much more then institutional, revelation is where the meat of the potato is

[Sleeper Cell]

Do you find enough revelation coming from the prophet and other leaders that you can sustain them as Prophets, Seers, Revelators? And are anecdotal stories over the pulpit at conference sufficient for you? Does hearing about people showing up at a meeting that were not suppose to be there constitute divine intervention? Is a story of finding $5.00 in a pair of pants inspiring enough for you? Does the revelation we are getting teach us about the nature of God and expand our theology? Do we know more about God than we did 150 years ago from continuing revelation?

I suppose it all depends on whether or not you believe that the primary purpose of revelation is to satisfy our intellectual curiosity.

[Senator]

I am looking for something to hang my hat on that says this is modern day revelation, but I just do not see it. Maybe you do.

Well, I think you answered your own question. It's an individual determination; one in which the definition of 'revelation' will weigh heavily. Then, once you've made that determination, it will be a matter of how strong your desire is to see it, or not?

Personally, I hang my hat on patience, kindness, long-suffering, mercy........the pure love of christ. These things are, in my mind, the most blatant manifestations(revelations) of the divine.

Edited November 6, 2011 by Senator

[Monster]

I was thinking of this just the other day. We have a prophet but the RCC has the Pope and other Churches have leaders, does our Prophet say anything that I don't hear in other Churches? As wonderful as new Temples are and new brethren and sisters are called and I don't for a second doubt the authenticity of their callings, i don't see that as something all that different when other Church hire on new people. I think personal, much more then institutional, revelation is where the meat of the potato is

I think that is my issue. We preach of modern day revelation but our revelation is not different than anyone else's. It is much more administrative than divine as I can see. I guess if small things satisfy you then I guess it works.

I do completely dispute the notion that we have all the info we need or can handle. I thnik we can handle much more and I think we need much more to progress. Otherwise we become stagnant.

[Monster]

I suppose it all depends on whether or not you believe that the primary purpose of revelation is to satisfy our intellectual curiosity.

I would say that is one of its main purposes. What else is there really to the eternities but to learn and know. We understand the world around us better than we did because of intellectual curiosity. What is wrong with wanting the same thing when it comes to things of heaven.

[Log]

I am looking for something to hang my hat on that says this is modern day revelation, but I just do not see it. Maybe you do.

Get a revelation for yourself, then.

Edited November 6, 2011 by Log

[Sleeper Cell]

I would say that is one of its main purposes. What else is there really to the eternities but to learn and know.

I suppose that reasonable minds can differ.

This is my work and my glory -- to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

[blackstrap]

Prophet

Seer

Revelator

Which title is under-utilized in the Church today? I am reminded of Joseph's statement where he was willing to reveal more but the people would " shatter like glass " .

[KevinG]

Prophet

Seer

Revelator

Which title is under-utilized in the Church today? I am reminded of Joseph's statement where he was willing to reveal more but the people would " shatter like glass " .

I think that was Brigham... but the point stands.

There is more of a need for fathers to place their hands on their childrens heads and bless them with revelation to guide them and power to heal and comfort them than there is a need for us to hear more of the mysteries of the universe in general conference.

There is more need for our Bishops and Stake presidents to receive guidance in calling the Saints to positions that will help them and the church grow than there is for the Prophet to declare we are all moving to Missiouri.

There is more need for mothers to receive guidance on how to guide their children through the dangers of peer pressure than there is for the Quorum of the 12 to publish lengthy discourses on the nature of God.

Revelation is flowing to the Saints - you just have to have ears to hear.

[zerinus]

I think that is my issue. We preach of modern day revelation but our revelation is not different than anyone else's. . . .

It isn't the same; but it takes one to recognize one. It is like the Book of Mormon. Some people read it, and instantly recognize the voice of God in it, while others don't.

I do completely dispute the notion that we have all the info we need or can handle. I thnik we can handle much more and I think we need much more to progress. Otherwise we become stagnant.

I agree that everyone could do with more divine knowledge than they already have; but not everyone is ready for it; therefore God makes publicly available what everyone can handle. If you want more, then the burden is on you to obtain it directly from the Lord, according to the teachings of Alma:

Alma 12:

9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

If you want to know the mysteries, you have to obtain it for yourself, direct from the Lord. The Church cannot help you with that. It is not its purpose to--except at the time of the Lord's choosing. You either wait for the Lord to reveal it to everyone (which may mean that you have to wait a long time); or else you exercise suficient faith to obtain it for yourself (in which case you won't be allowed to tell anybody else about it). That is how it works.

[zerinus]

I would say that is one of its main purposes.

Revelation may satisfy one's intellectual curiosity; but it does a lot more than that. It is not like secular or scientific knowledge. It can bring eternal life. And it requires faith (in God) to obtain it. And not everyone can handle it. When the Book of Mormon was revealed, what proportion of the human family believed it? What good did it to to them who did not believe it? It only condemned them. So what is the point of giving them more of the same, which will condemn them even more?

What else is there really to the eternities but to learn and know.

A lot more. A time can come when we will know everything. If the only object of existence is to know more, what would be the purpose of existence when there is nothing more left to know?

We understand the world around us better than we did because of intellectual curiosity. What is wrong with wanting the same thing when it comes to things of heaven.

Because the nature of the beast is different. There is no condemnation in not knowing or believing in Quantum Mechanics; but there is condemnation in not receiving and believing in the Book of Mormon.

Edited November 6, 2011 by zerinus

[KevinG]

Good points Zerinus. I think a key to eternal joy is in sharing knowledge with others and applying that knowledge for others when we receive it.

[Avatar4321]

When is there "enough" revelation?

If you want to know whether President Monson is a Prophet of God, then it's not His revelations that matter. It's yours. Because it's only by the power of the Holy Ghost that you can learn that. Seek God, find out from Him for yourself.

[Stargazer]

Do you find enough revelation coming from the prophet and other leaders that you can sustain them as Prophets, Seers, Revelators? And are anecdotal stories over the pulpit at conference sufficient for you? Does hearing about people showing up at a meeting that were not suppose to be there constitute divine intervention? Is a story of finding $5.00 in a pair of pants inspiring enough for you? Does the revelation we are getting teach us about the nature of God and expand our theology? Do we know more about God than we did 150 years ago from continuing revelation?

I am looking for something to hang my hat on that says this is modern day revelation, but I just do not see it. Maybe you do.

Well, I would say first of all that expecting revelation, in the sense of the President of the Church saying "Thus sayeth the Lord: " each and every General Conference is simply "looking beyond the mark". This is what you seem to wish for, much in the way stevedallas in a thread in the Social Hall seems to expect much more than the still, small voice in order to accept that he has a testimony (he may have been given that voice, but has ignored it because it wasn't loud enough).

Joseph Smith stated in the King Follett Discourse that if he were to reveal who he really was, that these men (pointing at the 12) would seek his life. The Lord withheld the larger portion of the Book of Mormon plates, and won't give it to us. The Lord Himself said "milk before meat" and when he attempted to hand out some meat ("he who does not eat my flesh and drink my blood has no part with me"), disciples left him in droves. When the resurrected Lord appeared unto 500 disciples, many thought it was some trick and left him then, not believing he had actually been resurrected. When Peter received a very clear revelation that the Gospel was now to be preached to the Gentiles and not only the Jews, many, even in the leadership of the Church, did not accept it. The Lord's people have a long history of rejecting new light and knowledge because they are more comfortable with the old stuff. You think this has changed in these last days? If you do, I think you have different think coming.

And we don't need what you seem to want. The latter-day Church has been guided by revelation at all levels from the beginning. I once served as a Branch President over a small branch, and that calling came by revelation to both me and the Stake President, separately. I felt the guidance of the Spirit in many instances while serving in that calling. In subsequent callings in the Church I have distinctly felt or observed the clear workings of the Spirit.

Yes, as Paul said, we see through a glass darkly, but the more excellent way is through the Lord's guidance through revelation and inspiration to those whom He has called to serve His people. If you do not see it, perhaps you are not looking hard enough, or perhaps you are looking too hard.

The Reorganized LDS used to publish new "revelations" quite regularly, and printed the new ones for insertion into their Doctrine and Covenants. Perhaps that is what you are missing? Well, the RLDS have virtually abandoned the Restoration and have turned themselves into a more-or-less Evangelical Protestant denomination. So clearly, printing up new revelations each year isn't the panacea you might think.

Ditto on what Avatar4321 said.

[Storm Rider]

Do you find enough revelation coming from the prophet and other leaders that you can sustain them as Prophets, Seers, Revelators? And are anecdotal stories over the pulpit at conference sufficient for you? Does hearing about people showing up at a meeting that were not suppose to be there constitute divine intervention? Is a story of finding $5.00 in a pair of pants inspiring enough for you? Does the revelation we are getting teach us about the nature of God and expand our theology? Do we know more about God than we did 150 years ago from continuing revelation?

I am looking for something to hang my hat on that says this is modern day revelation, but I just do not see it. Maybe you do.

I think I understand the motivation for your question. Is an individual a prophet if he does not prophesy or receive revelation that becomes scripture in the LDS Church? You are confusing two things: 1) men hold the keys of the priesthood. These men are called the prophet, first presidency, and the twelve apostles. These mean are called by God to serve in these positions. Does it matter if they do not use these keys to prophesy? In my opinion, the mere fact they lead the Church is an exercise of these keys.

Do they use the Keys to prophesy or predict the future? Yes, but I think you are looking for the grand new revelation, which may or may not come depending on God's will. One of the main reasons there is not the grand revelation this month is that we are not ready for anything new. We, as a people, have not lived by what we have already received.

Does God intervene in our own lives? Sometimes he does, but I am one that believes this life is a probationary period where we proceed through trials in order to learn to choose to follow Christ. Do we hunger after the Spirit of God more than the pleasures of the flesh and our passions?

Some of what you ask has a lot to do with gratitude. Do we acknowledge God in our lives? Are we humble enough to admit he is our God and all we have comes from him? Every night I can look into the night sky and know that God lives. When I calm myself I know that he is there.

Are you someone that wants to follow God?

[TruthSeeker24]

I have a deep consideration for Monster's questions. It is something that has greatly troubled me my whole life. That and the miracles that we don't see anymore, including speaking in tongues, which is supposed to be the most easy gift to receive. I sustain Monson as the rightful President of the Church with all my heart and soul, but I can't help but believe things are a bit out of order since Christ Himself said that miracles would follow those who believe on His name. People may argue that you just have to open your eyes to see the miracles, but the fact remains that in the early days, miracles were all over the place due to the faith of the saints. The fact is, I've never seen a miracle, which leads me to conclude that I am DEFINITELY out of order. And I guess "sign" would be a more rightful term to use, seeing as how our mere chance of coming to Christ is a miracle Anyways, those are my thoughts on the matter.

[Grundelwalken]

Do you find enough revelation coming from the prophet and other leaders that you can sustain them as Prophets, Seers, Revelators? And are anecdotal stories over the pulpit at conference sufficient for you? Does hearing about people showing up at a meeting that were not suppose to be there constitute divine intervention? Is a story of finding $5.00 in a pair of pants inspiring enough for you? Does the revelation we are getting teach us about the nature of God and expand our theology? Do we know more about God than we did 150 years ago from continuing revelation?

I am looking for something to hang my hat on that says this is modern day revelation, but I just do not see it. Maybe you do.

Truthfully, I am sometimes overwhelmed with the information I find coming from the prophets. Their messages offer hope but they also challenge our willingness to be as faithful as we must in order to please God. Who says those challenges have to be hard, mind-bending declarations when a story about honesty or simple answered prayer will do. And if you consider the average members experience in the gospel, maybe those are the types of things they really need to hear. Even more seasoned Saints can benefit from "peeling the onion" to find the truths that are contained in the simple stories often shared (ponder is an often overlooked tool to know more).

Revelation is something I must seek if I am going to know what God wants me to do. I'm not meaning revelation of new doctrine (though I suppose that is possible) but revelation of how I can apply what I already have to a greater extent. If I struggle with the nature of God, my best bet (metaphorically, not literally speaking) is to go to the source and find out what He has to say. Waiting for the Prophet or Apostles to "spoon-feed" me is not conducive to my eternal salvation. And isn't that the whole point of this excursion in mortality. MW

[KevinG]

I have a deep consideration for Monster's questions. It is something that has greatly troubled me my whole life. That and the miracles that we don't see anymore, including speaking in tongues, which is supposed to be the most easy gift to receive. I sustain Monson as the rightful President of the Church with all my heart and soul, but I can't help but believe things are a bit out of order since Christ Himself said that miracles would follow those who believe on His name. People may argue that you just have to open your eyes to see the miracles, but the fact remains that in the early days, miracles were all over the place due to the faith of the saints. The fact is, I've never seen a miracle, which leads me to conclude that I am DEFINITELY out of order. And I guess "sign" would be a more rightful term to use, seeing as how our mere chance of coming to Christ is a miracle Anyways, those are my thoughts on the matter.

I don't think we can blame our prophet if we don't have miracles following us. The gift of tongues is alive and well when the State Department wants to know how we teach our missionaries foreign languages so quickly. It also manifests itself regularly as our young Elders manage to convey the beauty of our Heavenly Fathers plan to peoples all over the world in thousands of tongues every day.

[Log]

Well, the ability to learn quickly is very possibly a manifestation of the Spirit, who brings light and intelligence to the Saints, but it is not the gift of tongues referenced in the scriptures.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Log

[TruthSeeker24]

Yea, I'm in agreement with Log on the Gift of Tongues issue. Don't get me wrong, I think the mere fact that missionaries learn a different language so quickly is a miracle for sure, but it's not the Gift of Tongues. As far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong), but the Gift of Tongues usually involves someone speaking in a different language with NO prior knowledge...at least not enough to even consider possibly speaking it; after which, another saint will always be there to interpret the language for the betterment of those who were in the presence of the miracle/sign. I remember reading about a little girl who spoke in Tongues. If I remember correctly, she was one of the first to ever receive the gift in the early Church. Anyways, I'm not blaming Monson in any way. I blame myself. And I know I shouldn't blame others, but I just feel that as a whole, there's something wrong due to the fact that we're not receiving more revelation and seeing more signs. Please don't let that lead you to believe that I need a sign to believe, because I already have my testimony. It's just that Christ said these signs would follow those who believed on His name, and since I don't see those signs and miracles, I feel I have to conclude that I'm out of order, as I'm a literalist when it comes to the scriptures. I don't know, it could be that Monson DOES receive revelation, and he's just waiting for us to become a more righteous people before he will let us hear the revelation. I just hope I can do better, cause lately I've been feeling like a poor Priesthood bearer. So yea, those are just my random thoughts lol thanx for listening.

[selek1]

Do you find enough revelation coming from the prophet and other leaders that you can sustain them as Prophets, Seers, Revelators?

"Enough" is a highly subjective term, Monster.

What is enough for you may not be sufficient for me, or vice-versa. What is "too much" for you may be "enough" for me or "too little" for the little old lady down the street.

Personally, I think you're trying to be coy- why not simply admit that your faith has faltered and so you're demanding proof?

Unfortunately, faith doesn't work like that.

There is no magic lever at the end of the maze that we can push and automagically receive a pellet divine fact.

And are anecdotal stories over the pulpit at conference sufficient for you? Does hearing about people showing up at a meeting that were not suppose to be there constitute divine intervention? Is a story of finding $5.00 in a pair of pants inspiring enough for you?

This litany is dismissive and condescending, bordering on outright mockery. It is- quite frankly- both offensive and indicative of a spirit of derision and contention rather than one of humility and willingness to learn.

"Is finding $5.00 in a pair of jeans inspiring to you?" It is when that five dollars comes in answer to a prayer. It is when that five dollars is the difference between your child going to bed with a full belly or going to bed hungry.

Does the revelation we are getting teach us about the nature of God and expand our theology? Do we know more about God than we did 150 years ago from continuing revelation?

That depends upon whether or not one has eyes to see and ears to hear.

All the revelation at God's disposal is insufficient to enlighten those who will not harken to his words. And yet the slightest whisper is sufficient to lift up the penitent who has humbled himself before God.

That's the miracle of revelation.

I am looking for something to hang my hat on that says this is modern day revelation, but I just do not see it. Maybe you do.

Then I would suggest you examine your attitude, assumptions, and presumptions.

If you're not seeing "enough" revelation, then perhaps "The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves".