Modernizing Bom Language

[ERayR]

I just cant understand why people get so heated about this subject. We aren't talking about replacing the standard works or even retranslating them. To say that the BOM or anything else cant be modernized or translated without loosing something is to say that it cant be understood by anyone who isn't a native speaker (King James English in this case). If done with care and the guidance of the spirit, i dont see how anything would be lost that isn't already lost by each individuals translation in their mind.

You are wrong it would be a retranslation. The translater/redacter choosing the words he/she thinks best express what is in the BOM.

[mnn727]

You are wrong it would be a retranslation. The translater/redacter choosing the words he/she thinks best express what is in the BOM.

So then we should never have translated it into any other language . All members should be forced to read it in archaic English and if they can't, well too bad, I guess they're just not motivated enough.

[ERayR]

So then we should never have translated it into any other language . All members should be forced to read it in archaic English and if they can't, well too bad, I guess they're just not motivated enough.

Are you naturally this obtuse or to you have to work at it? Apples and oranges.

[mnn727]

Are you naturally this obtuse or to you have to work at it? Apples and oranges.

Not at all, its exactly the same thing you said - "

You are wrong it would be a retranslation. The translater/redacter choosing the words he/she thinks best express what is in the BOM.

Gee all those foreign languages with translators choosing the words he/she thinks best express what is in the BOM. How terrible! Let them read it the way Joseph translated it, no need to put it into a language they can understand, right?

Apples to apples my friend, apples to apples.

Edited October 24, 2011 by mnn727

[thesometimesaint]

calmoriah:

Cool.

[volgadon]

Volgadon, as someone who has experience in multiple languages, do you know if nonEnglish versions of the BoM are in modern form or are they somewhat stylized to echo the English version?

It depends on the translation. I don't speak Armenian but I served in a part of Russia that is heavily Armenian. The Eastern Armenian translation was completed only a few years ago, a major event for a people who believe that their alphabet was revealed by heaven. Up til then they had to rely on the Western Armenian translation from the 1920s. What made it unpopular was not the style but the fact that it was in a form of the language which is hardly spoken in Armenia proper. Somewhat akin to an American having to read in Scots. The new translation serves the needs of Armenia and the eastern diaspora. It is still flowery but that is because their language is very poetic in a way that would strike most Americans as strange.

The Russian translation is idiosyncratic, but still more readable than the Russian Bible, the Synodal translation. The BoM was translated by Andre Anastasion from Odessa. In 1914 he ran away from home aboard a tramp steamer, saw the world, got stuck in Brussels on the 1st day of WWI. He escaped to England and met Forrest Stuart, a lawyer from Montpelier, Idaho. Anastasion later served as the president of the British mission during WWII. Moved to Utah after the war. Elder Talmage asked him to translate the BoM, which he began in 1925 and completed in 1967. Some corrections were made by people who later served as mission presidents. One of them released me when I came home from my mission. Anastasion also translated the D&C and PoGP. The translation does use Russian religious terms and gerunds influenced by Orthodox usage. There are also some odd wordings. An update would be nice, but the current one isn't bad.

The Ukrainian translation was done in the 90s by a family from Lviv. They didn't use the classic Central Ukrainian dialect, but an informal Lviv one, with Policisms and Russicisms. Very intimate, family feel to it, even though the standard dialect might have been a better choice. I read the Bulgarian translation but I don't know enough to comment on it.

[volgadon]

Nobody is taking about dumbing it down, we're talking about making in the language people actually speak.

Do we update it every 20 years or so?

[mnn727]

Do we update it every 20 years or so?

I would think if it was looked at seriously every 50 years or so would be fine. Languages don't change that much in 20 years but there have been a few major changes since I was born 55 years ago.

[Saints Alive]

I think just taking out the Thee, Thy, Thine, doth, etc. would be a major improvement. but then again I am also against the whole formal language prayers thing.

You could change those word with zero change to the meaning of the text. I'm not even sure if there are any words that need modernizing that could change the meaning of the text.

[Saints Alive]

You are wrong it would be a retranslation. The translater/redacter choosing the words he/she thinks best express what is in the BOM.

Show one verse in the BOM where modernized language could change the meaning of the message.

[mnn727]

Compare 1st Nephi 1: 1-5

My name is Nephi. I was born to good parents who saw that I was educated as my father

was educated. I've had many trials in my life, but I've always been highly favored by the

Lord. I've received great knowledge of His goodness and mysteries. Because of these

things, I now make this record of my life.

I'm writing as my father did, in Egyptian, but writing according to Jewish

learning. I know this record is true, which I engrave upon

metal plates I've made.

My record begins with my father, Lehi, who lived in Jerusalem with his family.

Soon after our new king Zedekiah came to power, many prophets came to our city. They

told the people that if they didn't repent, they'd be destroyed. When my father heard this

he became very concerned for his people. He went out and prayed with all his heart to the

Lord, asking what he could do to help save his people.

Reads much easier I think and I can not see that the meaning has changed at all,

Here is the original for your comparison

1 I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents, therefore I was taught somewhat in all the learning of my father; and having seen many afflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days; yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of God, therefore I make a record of my proceedings in my days.

2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.

3 And I know that the record which I make is true; and I make it with mine own hand; and I make it according to my knowledge.

4 For it came to pass in the commencement of the first year of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah, (my father, Lehi, having dwelt at Jerusalem in all his days); and in that same year there came many prophets, prophesying unto the people that they must repent, or the great city Jerusalem must be destroyed.

5 Wherefore it came to pass that my father, Lehi, as he went forth prayed unto the Lord, yea, even with all his heart, in behalf of his people.

Edited October 25, 2011 by mnn727

[Deborah]

Reads much easier I think, here is the original for your comparison

I'll take the original. Says it much more poetically and with fewer words.

[David T]

I think just taking out the Thee, Thy, Thine, doth, etc. would be a major improvement. but then again I am also against the whole formal language prayers thing.

You could change those word with zero change to the meaning of the text. I'm not even sure if there are any words that need modernizing that could change the meaning of the text.

When I read the BoM aloud, I often times automatically remove the -th archaic endings. "He saith unto him", etc, I generally just read "He said unto him."

[Saints Alive]

Compare 1st Nephi 1: 1-5

My name is Nephi. I was born to good parents who saw that I was educated as my father

was educated. I've had many trials in my life, but I've always been highly favored by the

Lord. I've received great knowledge of His goodness and mysteries. Because of these

things, I now make this record of my life.

I'm writing as my father did, in Egyptian, but writing according to Jewish

learning. I know this record is true, which I engrave upon

metal plates I've made.

My record begins with my father, Lehi, who lived in Jerusalem with his family.

Soon after our new king Zedekiah came to power, many prophets came to our city. They

told the people that if they didn't repent, they'd be destroyed. When my father heard this

he became very concerned for his people. He went out and prayed with all his heart to the

Lord, asking what he could do to help save his people.

Reads much easier I think, here is the original for your comparison

1 I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents, therefore I was taught somewhat in all the learning of my father; and having seen many afflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days; yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of God, therefore I make a record of my proceedings in my days.

2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.

3 And I know that the record which I make is true; and I make it with mine own hand; and I make it according to my knowledge.

4 For it came to pass in the commencement of the first year of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah, (my father, Lehi, having dwelt at Jerusalem in all his days); and in that same year there came many prophets, prophesying unto the people that they must repent, or the great city Jerusalem must be destroyed.

5 Wherefore it came to pass that my father, Lehi, as he went forth prayed unto the Lord, yea, even with all his heart, in behalf of his people.

this is a very extreme example and i would say it goes to far. I guess I would prefer more of the NKJV style (even though most don't like the NKJV) Keep the style and tense of the text just update the language.

ex:

John 3:16

King James Version (KJV)

¹⁶For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:16

New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁶ For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

[cinepro]

So, when the Church translates the Book of Mormon into other languages, do they prefer to use the vernacular of that language from 400 years ago? Or from 1830? Or do they model it after whichever Bible is preferred in that language?

It seems a little disingenuous to argue that the English can't be changed when the book is being translated into dozens of other languages. We sound like Muslims who believe that the Koran isn't the Koran unless it's in Arabic.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

This is the "official" Church Policy about Book of Mormon Language / grammar. This says to me that I am not the only one who has ever thought it might be nice to have a modern translation of the Book of Mormon.

I understand the risk the first presidency is talking about but could it not be possible to remove some thee, thy, and thou without "introducing doctrinal errors," perhaps replace the word "epistle" found in alma, with the only possible translation "letter"

Any thoughts?

No re-translation.

[mnn727]

I'll take the original. Says it much more poetically and with fewer words.

I hate poetry, and its archaic: nobody speaks that way anymore.

And there's 39 less words in the modern English version, it just looks longer because of the way I copied and pasted it.

Edited October 25, 2011 by mnn727

[Deborah]

It is very sad to me that more Americans aren't educated in poetry. It has a way of expressing deep thought elegantly and succinctly. I used to lie in bed with my little girl on a Saturday morning and we would read poetry out loud. I suppose the same people hate Shakespeare and Beowulf. Very sad that our education system has failed so miserably in educating our young people to the fine arts of literature.

[mnn727]

It is very sad to me that more Americans aren't educated in poetry. It has a way of expressing deep thought elegantly and succinctly. I used to lie in bed with my little girl on a Saturday morning and we would read poetry out loud. I suppose the same people hate Shakespeare and Beowulf. Very sad that our education system has failed so miserably in educating our young people to the fine arts of literature.

Oh, I was taught poetry and Shakesphere in school, I was also raised on the KJV Bible: hated it then and hate it now. Its not a matter of teaching/learning, its a matter of preferences. Not everyone is the same - thank God. Besides the KJV and the BoM are not Poetic (ok, parts of Psalms, the Song of Soloman and Proverbs are), as for the rest of it its just Old English and thats not poetic..

[LeSellers]

I hate poetry, and its archaic: nobody speaks that way anymore.

The problem with this position is that Hebrew is a poetic language. The whole thing, from the alephbet to the most complex structures, is poetic.

Whether this is the way the Lord speaks or not, I have no opinion, but it is the way His prophets wrote His revelations, especially the Old Testament and the Book of Mormon.

the KJV and the BoM are not Poetic (ok, parts of Psalms, the Song of Soloman and Proverbs are), as for the rest of it its just Old English and thats not poetic..

If you do not see the poetry in the AV (aka KJV) and the Book of Mormon, you're missing a huge part of the method by which the Lord transmitted His thoughts to His prophets. And that means you are missing a large part of the message.

At least in my opinion.

Lehi

Edited October 25, 2011 by LeSellers

[volgadon]

So, when the Church translates the Book of Mormon into other languages, do they prefer to use the vernacular of that language from 400 years ago? Or from 1830? Or do they model it after whichever Bible is preferred in that language?

A great deal depends on the individual translator.

[CV75]

Any thoughts?

In a practical sense, this is what we get when we hear conference talks and read the instructional manuals, explanations in the seminary and institute manuals, children’s versions, etc. They are in their own way witnesses of Christ in more modern language. They convey the same teachings as the Book of Mormon.

A really good exercise would be to re-write it into more familiar language yourself, for your own edification—I know a man who actually did this! Of course you would ponder and pray in the process, as this would be a form of likening the scriptures unto yourself. It wouldn’t be so different, just more expanded, than making notes in the margins or using the Notebook on lds.org. If you are guided by the Spirit you won’t undermine your spiritual progress or neglect to re-read the Book of Mormon as you review your conclusions through the years as you gain deeper understanding.

If the Church were to do this for us, I see much of the nourishment gained from scripture study and internalizing being taken away through pre-digestion.

[shalamabobbi]

1 Ne 2:4

And it came to pass that he departed into the wilderness. And he left his house, and the land of his inheritance, and his gold, and his silver, and his precious things, and took nothing with him, save it were his family, and provisions, and tents, and departed into the wilderness.

And he was chillin in the cut but he paked it up, getting ghost. And he left da'hood, and his benjamins, gwap, and his bling-bling, and took nuttin with him, cep his homies and peeps, and viddlez, and portable crib, and dipped out into a new turf.

[volgadon]

Awesome.

[Calm]

1 Ne 2:4

And it came to pass that he departed into the wilderness. And he left his house, and the land of his inheritance, and his gold, and his silver, and his precious things, and took nothing with him, save it were his family, and provisions, and tents, and departed into the wilderness.

And he was chillin in the cut but he paked it up, getting ghost. And he left da'hood, and his benjamins, gwap, and his bling-bling, and took nuttin with him, cep his homies and peeps, and viddlez, and portable crib, and dipped out into a new turf.

Shakespeare could not do better.