Should Those With Homosexual Preferences Serve Missions?

[Facsimile 3]

A line has been drawn. That is the reason Elders and Sisters are not put together as companion sets.

As a missionary we were to keep members of the opposite sex at arm's length. A handshake was as close as we could get. Why is that line drawn there? There are rules in the missionfield for missinories that are only applicable there...why? Are missionaries not able to govern themselves?

If the line is already drawn for hetero missionaries, why are gay missionaries exempt from that line?

A line does not apparently have to be drawn on this issue because the Brethren have not done so. You are insisting on a line being drawn that they haven't so maybe you should take it up with them.

Again, I just can't relate to your thinking on this. The Church is never excited at the prospect of having to govern people in all matters of their life. I'm not excited about that prospect. Some people like the idea of that prospect (those people creep me out).

Mission Presidents aren't blind, I'm sure many are able to pick up on elders who probably have same sex attractions. Bishops aren't blind either. So it's pretty obvious that there are leaders who know this is an element in missionary service and are fine with it. I've never heard an Elder or a Sister come home and say, "Mom and dad, I'm so scared because my mission didn't protect me from the gays; please do something!"

So if you are coming up with this "problem" that requires a line in the sand, and ignoring all these practical outcomes in experience, don't you feel like you may be a little "out there" on this?

Edited September 28, 2011 by Facsimile 3

[sethpayne]

In principle I agree with everything you've said. However, as a people and as a church we are still just cutting our teeth to the idea of SSA. I don't think we're there yet. At least not according to the attitudes that I glean from the membership that I've associated with.

A very fair point. I agree with you. That is why I think it is all the more important we allow our brothers and sisters who are homosexual (for the record I disagree with Elder Oaks' semantics to try and separate the terms SSM and homosexual -- so I think I'll have to agree to disagree on this point) to feel free to be open about who they are. As members see that homosexual members can be full participants in the Church, over time their level of discomfort will dissipate.

Look -- I didn't really understand the struggle homosexual members of the Church go through, or even what it meant to be gay, until I met my friend, Devan. Today, he is my best friend and is actually going to be the best man at my wedding a week from Sunday. When my parents came out for my graduation a few years ago and got to know Devan, they too walked away with a better understanding of what it means to be gay and while they certainly don't approve of homosexual practice, they see Devan as just a "regular guy."

[altersteve]

I've never heard an Elder or a Sister come home and say, "Mom and dad, I'm so scared because my mission didn't protect me from the gays; please do something!"

In addition to this, I've also never heard of a missionary being sent home, or being denied the opportunity to serve a mission, simply because he or she was gay. I think that's absolutely absurd.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

As a missionary we were to keep members of the opposite sex at arm's length. A handshake was as close as we could get. Why is that line drawn there? There are rules in the missionfield for missinories that are only applicable there...why? Are missionaries not able to govern themselves?

If the line is already drawn for hetero missionaries, why are gay missionaries exempt from that line?

Because the lines that are drawn for hetrosexual people within the LDS church are different to the lines that are drawn for homosexual people within the LDS Church...

...not just in the mission field, but throughout their entire lives.

If you can't understand why a homosexual could resist crossing lines that many hetrosexuals couldn't resist - within the mission field, then you can't understand why - or how - a homosexual could stay in the LDS church at all. Period.

Edited September 28, 2011 by RenegadeOfPhunk

[annewandering]

I still say that it is wrong to assume that young woman is lesbian. Go ahead and debate the gay missionary thing if you want but dont lable this woman without even knowing anything about her. We do not know she is lesbian. Its just wrong in so many ways to just assume she is. Think of how many ways such judgements hurt her. One people are doubting she has the right to even go on a mission. Two now that she is labeled lesbian how many guys are going to be interested in her as date material ever? How many ways is she going to be discriminated against, not even knowing why? It isnt that much of a stretch to imagine her, one day in the future, giving up and committing suicide. How about if we have a discussion on jumping to conclusions and how we can destroy peoples lives by doing so?

[annewandering]

One more thought to the OP. How many people besides on here have you asked about this? How many people in your ward are now debating this same issue without even knowing if she even is?

[Senator]

A very fair point. I agree with you. That is why I think it is all the more important we allow our brothers and sisters who are homosexual (for the record I disagree with Elder Oaks' semantics to try and separate the terms SSM and homosexual -- so I think I'll have to agree to disagree on this point) to feel free to be open about who they are. As members see that homosexual members can be full participants in the Church, over time their level of discomfort will dissipate.

There is a stigma or prejudice, not only with the terms gay, homosexual etc.., but with the very mental/visual idea of same sex attraction that I think will be very long in the dieing. I'm not certain that SSA will ever see a divorce from "abnormality".

I am all for people being freely expressive in their personalities. But the moment they utter the words, "I'm gay or homosexual", the game changes in the minds of those around them. People can "act or look" as gay as can be and still be accepted. As long as those words are never said, people are then forced to reserve judgement, and their biases and prejudices are stymied.

[Daniel2]

Sadly; I would say no, it would be tantamount to a Young Elder sharing an Apartment with a Sis Missionary for two years (no matter the self control). Maybe if they only served in the mission home with only the President and his Wife dealing with administration duties. I have a Gay Child and it breaks my heart to even type this. I speak with her on the phone and see her a number of times during the week, we are very close. Not to mention my Ward (before it dissolved) she used to attend every social and they treated her with nothing but love and kindness…she attended that Ward from birth to 20 years of age…she also encouraged my Son to go on a Mission and insists on that she help pay for his mission. If any have a problem with it I don’t care…I would give my very soul for her.

Pa Pa,

It's always been clear to me that you love your gay daughter, and I admire and applaud that love.

I'm often simultaneously saddened for you both to read of the ongoing non-reconciliation between your love for your daughter and your religious faith, manifesting as an inability to fully love and support her in her search for a romantic relationship with someone of the same gender.

I appreciate that you are doing the best you are likely able to do, in that challenging circumstance, and I commend you for it.

When people express reluctance, disagreement, or potential danger with the idea of a young gay man or woman sharing the living space and close proximety with someone of their own gender, I get a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach. First, I see it as a misunderstanding of what it's like to be gay or lesbian--perceiving/projecting "temptation" or "danger" when there really is likely nothing that warrents such worry or over reactions.

As gays and lesbians, we live our entire lives surrounded by members of the same-sex to whom we may or may not find attractive, often partially or fully unclothed---------from public restrooms to locker rooms to gyms to the homes we were raised in (assuming we may have had same-sex siblings). We spend our entire lives aware that we may find someone attractive, but learn to avoid acknowledging that attraction, and certainly avoiding acting on it in the vast majority of instances when we feel the 'tug' of attraction. It is, for us, something that is perhaps like the babbling of voices in the back of a crowded room--one simply learns to tune them out when focues on a more present conversation. The reality that such attractions exist, however, does not mean that we live our lives in a constant state of sexually-frenzied attraction when in close quarters with our same-sex peers.

Even more troubling, in my mind, is what those who show concern over gays and lesbians sharing living quarters or day-to-day activities with someone of the same sex feel should be "the solution" for such young gay men and women would be... Would you have them chaperoned at all times, wherever they are in contact with someone they may find attractive? Who SHOULD young gay men actually live with.......??? (these same questions are true of lesbians, too, I'll refer to gay men for the sake of convenience). If one suggests the gay man shouldn't live with other men because he might be tempted, should he live with young women? (but then, what about the young women in that cases--they could just as potentially be attracted to the young gay man...) It would seem that such concerns imply that gays and lesbians must live alone, to avoid being tempted by anyone in close quarters. That solution is not only unrealistic, but it is emotionally isolationist, as well.

As I mentioned--most of us who are gay have spent our lives learning to deal with our same-sex attractions. I side with those in this thread who gently suggest that others' attractions are beyond the realm of what we should expect to police, and should be policed by the individuals, themselves.

My view,

Daniel2

Edited September 28, 2011 by Daniel2

[thesometimesaint]

The sin is not in the temptation, but in the giving into the temptation. Until there is some giving into temptation it is none of anyone's business, other than God, what those temptations are.

[why me]

As long as they're not involved in homosexual behavior, I'm fine with it. Simply being attracted to those of the same sex is not a sin and it may not be something they can control.

Let me give you an example: I have one daughter who served a mission. At times she had to share the same bed with her companion. Now if her companion were a lesbian and if her companion were attracted to my daughter, what thoughts may be running through the head of my daughter's companion? And I think that this is the problem. It would matter very little if the companion acted on it or not. The thoughts may still be there as would the temptation.

We need to understand that same sex attraction is no different from heterosexual attraction. The attraction is still there as are the thoughts. Now if I place myself living with female roommates who I would find attractive, what would my reaction be? What thoughts would be racing inside my head? But if I were a gay male, my thoughts would be just fine...no attraction at all.

[sethpayne]

Let me give you an example: I have one daughter who served a mission. At times she had to share the same bed with her companion. Now if her companion were a lesbian and if her companion were attracted to my daughter, what thoughts may be running through the head of my daughter's companion? And I think that this is the problem. It would matter very little if the companion acted on it or not. The thoughts may still be there as would the temptation.

We need to understand that same sex attraction is no different from heterosexual attraction. The attraction is still there as are the thoughts. Now if I place myself living with female roommates who I would find attractive, what would my reaction be? What thoughts would be racing inside my head? But if I were a gay male, my thoughts would be just fine...no attraction at all.

Since when did temptation become a sin in itself? Action is sin (and I consider dwelling on inappropriate thoughts an action; a married man lusting after another woman, for example).

[why me]

Since when did temptation become a sin in itself? Action is sin (and I consider dwelling on inappropriate thoughts an action; a married man lusting after another woman, for example).

I can only use myself as an example. If I am sharing a room with a woman and I am attracted to her, my thoughts would be very active. And temptation would exist. It is only human to have such thoughts and feelings. But I may not act on them even if the woman were having the same active mind and temptation. When missionaries have same sex attraction and they are with the same sex, the problem will avail itself. I am not sure if such temptations leading to action thoughts need to be encouraged when we are dealing with lds missionaries.

I do think that it would be difficult regardless if one is hetero or gay. We are sexual beings.

Edited September 28, 2011 by why me

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

++++++1

Pa Pa -- this is one of the many reasons I love you. You are a kind and loving father and a great example to us all.

That you, I cannot help but love her, as a pray God loves me, as my weaknesses are "legion". I know things about her she does not even know, but when I see her or speak to her it is about how proud I am of her taking care of herself, working hard at her job, for the food she brings over...and how much I love her. The only thing I have got onto her as of late is the fact that she called up saying she did not have any food until payday and asked if she could come get some. I told her...you have a key at what food is mine is yours; you do not need to ask, what do you think I would possibly deny you! But most of all she loves me...btw we are having her birthday dinner this Sunday, she will be 26 on Oct 4th. You know when she was born I had to assist the nurse in delivering her...the Doctor had left the hospital for a while and my wife went into labor before he could get there, so she had her natural...I asked if she wanted to do that with Caleb...she courageously said...HELL NO! That was one of the best days of my life...both of them.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Pa Pa,

It's always been clear to me that you love your gay daughter, and I admire and applaud that love.

I'm often simultaneously saddened for you both to read of the ongoing non-reconciliation between your love for your daughter and your religious faith, manifesting as an inability to fully love and support her in her search for a romantic relationship with someone of the same gender.

I appreciate that you are doing the best you are likely able to do, in that challenging circumstance, and I commend you for it.

When people express reluctance, disagreement, or potential danger with the idea of a young gay man or woman sharing the living space and close proximety with someone of their own gender, I get a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach. First, I see it as a misunderstanding of what it's like to be gay or lesbian--perceiving/projecting "temptation" or "danger" when there really is likely nothing that warrents such worry or over reactions.

As gays and lesbians, we live our entire lives surrounded by members of the same-sex to whom we may or may not find attractive, often partially or fully unclothed---------from public restrooms to locker rooms to gyms to the homes we were raised in (assuming we may have had same-sex siblings). We spend our entire lives aware that we may find someone attractive, but learn to avoid acknowledging that attraction, and certainly avoiding acting on it in the vast majority of instances when we feel the 'tug' of attraction. It is, for us, something that is perhaps like the babbling of voices in the back of a crowded room--one simply learns to tune them out when focues on a more present conversation. The reality that such attractions exist, however, does not mean that we live our lives in a constant state of sexually-frenzied attraction when in close quarters with our same-sex peers.

Even more troubling, in my mind, is what those who show concern over gays and lesbians sharing living quarters or day-to-day activities with someone of the same sex feel should be "the solution" for such young gay men and women would be... Would you have them chaperoned at all times, wherever they are in contact with someone they may find attractive? Who SHOULD young gay men actually live with.......??? (these same questions are true of lesbians, too, I'll refer to gay men for the sake of convenience). If one suggests the gay man shouldn't live with other men because he might be tempted, should he live with young women? (but then, what about the young women in that cases--they could just as potentially be attracted to the young gay man...) It would seem that such concerns imply that gays and lesbians must live alone, to avoid being tempted by anyone in close quarters. That solution is not only unrealistic, but it is emotionally isolationist, as well.

As I mentioned--most of us who are gay have spent our lives learning to deal with our same-sex attractions. I side with those in this thread who gently suggest that others' attractions are beyond the realm of what we should expect to police, and should be policed by the individuals, themselves.

My view,

Daniel2

Two things Daniel…no many things.

What does my faith and my love for my child have to do with anything? Which should I abandon, Sir? This is so ridicules; I don’t know what to say, with all due respect. I would not want my sons to “seek” a romantic sexual relationship outside of marriage, or through adultery, as my biological bigamist father did and then left us homeless. You have compared my faith in God and my love for my child as competing.

As for you statement about people who are in the service of God, who “do so agreeing to the conditions” living in close quarters for two years tells me you do not know anything about biology. Face it in a heterosexual community two men sleeping together or kissing is something they would rather die than do (unless brothers biologically)…women, are (in many cases) are comfortable with it, my wife and her best friend (who is her Visiting Teacher) kiss on the cheek when she leaves, me and my home teacher do not. Sister missionaries often feel like sisters…when my oldest daughter served a mission and with her companion and her lived in a bad neighborhoods, they would often would share the same bed out of fear…and thought nothing of it.

You do not know what is in my heart…my daughter who is Gay told me without provocation, that, “her lifestyle would never be brought into our faith, and despises those who attack it”. I would think that my comment on her encouraging of her little brother to serve a mission and insisting on helping to pay” are self evident, you don’t know her either …to this day, if I or anyone in our family is speaking in Sacrament she is there. Just like I did not share my Father’s faith, but if ever he preached…I was there! Also no one speaks ill of her and gives her warm embraces…most (even in our New Ward) have known her all her life. If my State President (who is a close friend) he will not leave the Chapel until he sees her. When my son spoke at his farewell she cried most of the time with pride. They correspond weekly. I am sorry this not fit you idea of “we backward Southern folk or the Church and Ward we attend”, but as I said, “I would give my soul for her”. Sorry for the term…but “bigotry noted”. I don’t mean to be so passionate, but you are speaking about on of my babies, while insulting me, as well as my Faith!

[Pahoran]

Pa Pa,

It's always been clear to me that you love your gay daughter, and I admire and applaud that love.

I'm often simultaneously saddened for you both to read of the ongoing non-reconciliation between your love for your daughter and your religious faith, manifesting as an inability to fully love and support her in her search for a romantic relationship with someone of the same gender.

And there we have it. According to the "gay" agitators, we can't love the sinner unless we also love the sin. And embrace and encourage it.

This agitprop is false, of course.

Daniel, you are always courteous and rarely confrontational, but you are peddling poison nonetheless.

Regards,

Pahoran

Edited September 28, 2011 by Pahoran

[Pahoran]

Back to the OP: I believe the correct answer to the question is found in Matthew 6:13.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Calm]

I'm often simultaneously saddened for you both to read of the ongoing non-reconciliation between your love for your daughter and your religious faith, manifesting as an inability to fully love and support her in her search for a romantic relationship with someone of the same gender.

Is it only possible to fully love someone if you accept and support everything about them in your view?

If my son fell in love with a married woman and desired her to get a divorce and marry him, would I not fully love him unless I fully supported him in his choice of marriage partner?

Edited September 28, 2011 by calmoriah

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

And there we have it. According to the "gay" agitators, we can't love the sinner unless we also love the sin. And embrace and encourage it.

This agitprop is false, of course.

Daniel, you are always courteous and rarely confrontational, but you are peddling poison nonetheless.

Regards,

Pahoran

I wish I could give you more than one point...Thank You! +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++1

[sethpayne]

Back to the OP: I believe the correct answer to the question is found in Matthew 6:13.

Regards,

Pahoran

Hi Pahoran,

Can you be a bit more explicit?

And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For your is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Are you saying that non-practicing gays and lesbians should not be allowed to serve missions?

I just want to understand your point.

Thanks!

Seth

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Is it only possible to fully love someone if you accept and support everything about them in your view?

If my son fell in love with a married woman and desired her to get a divorce and marry him, would I not fully love him unless I fully supported him in his choice of marriage partner?

Excellent point...I wish i could give you more. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++1

[volgadon]

Maybe Haredi Judaism would be more of your cup of tea?

There is a song by Shotei Hanevuah.

"On a second story in Bnei Barak

There is a Haredi family

They know that something is good

Only if it is something that they know."

[Hamba Tuhan]

The sin is not in the temptation, but in the giving into the temptation. Until there is some giving into temptation it is none of anyone's business, other than God, what those temptations are.

Precisely!

[katherine the great]

Being gay definitely adds a different dimension to full time missionary service than the "norm." It doesn't seem like it should be a problem unless they happen to be paired with a gay companion. Even then, unless there is an attraction on both sides, it probably is doable, but definitely a situation to be avoided if possible. Perhaps disclosure to the Mission President is in order just in case. I served a full time mission and it wouldn't have mattered if I'd had a gay companion because I simply don't swing that way and we didn't ever walk around naked or anything. In fact, we usually lived in an apartment with four or six missionaries and slept with our doors open to circulate the air better. I actually probably could have been paired with most of the elders without a twinge of attraction, but there were a few that would have definitely been trouble.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I can only use myself as an example.

In this context, I think it's called projecting.

Edited September 28, 2011 by Hamba Tuhan

[Pahoran]

Hi Pahoran,

Can you be a bit more explicit?

And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For your is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Are you saying that non-practicing gays and lesbians should not be allowed to serve missions?

I just want to understand your point.

Thanks!

Seth

My point is simple: why buy trouble?

If we take the Lord's teaching on this subject seriously, we don't unnecessarily place anyone in the way of temptation.

The integrity of the missionary force as a whole and of the missionary program itself, IM(V)HO outweighs any of the sensitive-new-age stuff about sparing the feelings of individuals who might feel hurt if they were excluded.

Regards,

Pahoran