Thee, Thou, Thine......

[RegularMormon]

I must say, THIS blog post came across quit refreshing for me. Not so much to validate my own personal feelings but that I'm not alone in this.

As a member we're taught in Primary the proper way to pray using Thee, Thou, Thine... Which is fine and I get it and agree with it. However, I've seen people turned off (including myself) when someone approaches us after a prayer or whatever and try to "correct" us when we might have slipped in a "YOU" or two. I mean really? Who does that?

I think sometimes we get so caught up in the mechanics we lose the purpose. I remember one person in sacrament apologize after she prayed because she used a "you" by accident. NO one should have to apologize after praying. Thoughts?

Source

Edited September 20, 2011 by RegularMormon

[thesometimesaint]

Let's not get too pharasaical about it.

I'm sure God understands modern English.

[KevinG]

When my younger kids get flustered trying to say a prayer I quietly whisper, "God is interested in the sincerity of your prayer more thyan the clarity of your prayer."

Using formal language is a good way to show reverence. That is why we do it as a people.

Edited September 20, 2011 by DaddyG

[CV75]

Mechanics vs. spirit can be an issue in any aspect of living one's religion.

Edited to reflect WS' comment #8 below...

Edited September 20, 2011 by CV75

[Ahab]

I must say, THIS blog post came across quit refreshing for me. Not so much to validate my own personal feelings but that I'm not alone in this.

As a member we're taught in Primary the proper way to pray using Thee, Thou, Thine... Which is fine and I get it and agree with it. However, I've seen people turned off (including myself) when someone approaches us after a prayer or whatever and try to "correct" us when we might have slipped in a "YOU" or two. I mean really? Who does that?

Who does that? People who get what you get and would like others who pray to get what you get about why we should use a formal language to show respect for our Father in heaven.

It may seem strange to you that some people actually care enough to go around trying to correct people when they see an opportunity to help someone learn something, but some of us are quite comfortable with trying to help correct other people just because we want them to know and experience as much as we do.

I think sometimes we get so caught up in the mechanics we lose the purpose. I remember one person in sacrament apologize after she prayed because she used a "you" by accident. NO one should have to apologize after praying. Thoughts?

I see that person as someone who showed great humility and some sincere remorse for not doing something as well as she knew she could have, and rather than think "you don't have to worry about not saying Thee, Thy, and Thou every time you pray" I would applaud her (in my own mind because I know overt applause is frowned upon in our Sacrament meetings) for being so humble and sweet and sincere in her good intentions.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Ahab

[altersteve]

I actually always say "you," "your," etc. when praying, or at least in my private prayers. I really don't think it's a big deal.

[LeSellers]

When I was a new officer in the USmerican Army, I had to brief generals and admirals regularly. It was a very formal thing: the setting, the protocols—right down to the clothing we wore. There was a particular vocabulary we used in speaking to each other. "Sir" was only the beginning.

It took several hours of preparation for my ten-to-fifteen-minute presentation. I had to include all the information in the allotted time, and be prepared to trim it so as to allow the boss to ask questions without running over. Because my performance reflected on them as well as it did on me, personally, it seems needless to add that my colonels and majors were all involved in the preparation, and we rehearsed it repeatedly.

If I'd take that effort in preparing myself to talk to Stansfield Turner (ADM, and later DCI under Jimmy Carter), how much more should I prepare to talk to God. He is my Father, and He loves me, but He is also my dread Lord, my Sovereign, and His attention is more valuable than any general's or president's.

It is a small matter to use formal language in addressing Him. It is a negligible thing to meditate, to organize my thoughts, to seek to get right with Him prior to unloading my burdens on Him. It is trivial for me to "clean up" before presenting myself before Him, for inspection, as it were.

The "formality" of using "prayer language" may not affect Him in anyway, but it affects me in fundamental ways, not least of which is it keeps me alert to the fact that it to God I am speaking, and that this is no casual or inconsequential jabber.

If someone "slips", so be it. But I know people who have told me they are on a "crusade" to eliminate such formalities. I believe they will reap disappointment by and by.

At least it seems so to me.

Lehi

[William Schryver]

I must say, THIS blog post came across quit refreshing for me. Not so much to validate my own personal feelings but that I'm not alone in this.

As a member we're taught in Primary the proper way to pray using Thee, Thou, Thine... Which is fine and I get it and agree with it. However, I've seen people turned off (including myself) when someone approaches us after a prayer or whatever and try to "correct" us when we might have slipped in a "YOU" or two. I mean really? Who does that?

I think sometimes we get so caught up in the mechanics we lose the purpose. I remember one person in sacrament apologize after she prayed because she used a "you" by accident. NO one should have to apologize after praying. Thoughts?

Source

In my opinion, no one should be correcting someone else's language of prayer. That's not the appropriate setting for a lesson on the usage of "thou," "thee," "thine," etc.

However, I would like to use this setting to give a lesson on the topic:

"Thou" is not a more "formal" way of saying "you." It is, quite to the contrary, less formal. "Thou" is the familiar (although now archaic) form in English. It is the equivalent of "tu" in Italian and Spanish. It is the form one would use with close friends and family members. I think it is important to teach this concept to children when instructing them about the use of "thou" (and its objective and possessive forms: "thee," and "thine") in the context of prayer. We do it to emphasize our familiarity, our family relationship, with our Father in heaven; to underscore our unique relationship to Him as our Father.

Edited September 20, 2011 by William Schryver

[CV75]

"Thou" is not a more "formal" way of saying "you." It is, quite to the contrary, less formal. "Thou" is the familiar (although now archaic) form in English. It is the equivalent of "tu" in Italian and Spanish. It is the form one would use with close friends and family members. I think it is important to teach this concept to children when instructing them about the use of "thou" (and its objective and possessive forms: "thee," and "thine") in the context of prayer. We do it to emphasize our familiarity, our family relationship, with our Father in heaven; to underscore our unique relationship to Him as our Father.

Thank you for this lesson!

[RegularMormon]

I think prayer is a very personal thing between the child to his Father. A more formal strict military approach may work for some and a more relaxed not so formal approach may work for others. I agree in a public setting we should try to be an example and pray more formally but even then esp with newer members, I still don't feel it's right someone coming up to me and "correcting" me unless it was my direct PH Leader is appropriate.

Edited September 20, 2011 by RegularMormon

[Questing Beast]

As a child, "corporate" prayer bothered me. I got used to it, from continual exposure to the tradition. But I never got comfortable with it. I can pray with the "best" of them. But I prefer not to. My prayers are continual, even or especially when sleeping. I am with Huck Finn, You cannot pray a lie. So vocally expressing a prayer is, or ought to be, merely a focusing into spoken words, what thoughts are already coursing through your mind.

As for "thee'in, thou'in and thy'in", those are quaint formalities. I am positive that "God" doesn't care a whit for their inclusion....

[volgadon]

In my opinion, no one should be correcting someone else's language of prayer. That's not the appropriate setting for a lesson on the usage of "thou," "thee," "thine," etc.

However, I would like to use this setting to give a lesson on the topic:

"Thou" is not a more "formal" way of saying "you." It is, quite to the contrary, less formal. "Thou" is the familiar (although now archaic) form in English. It is the equivalent of "tu" in Italian and Spanish. It is the form one would use with close friends and family members. I think it is important to teach this concept to children when instructing them about the use of "thou" (and its objective and possessive forms: "thee," and "thine") in the context of prayer. We do it to emphasize our familiarity, our family relationship, with our Father in heaven; to underscore our unique relationship to Him as our Father.

Just so. Geordies still use it that way.

[William Schryver]

As a child, "corporate" prayer bothered me. I got used to it, from continual exposure to the tradition. But I never got comfortable with it. I can pray with the "best" of them. But I prefer not to. My prayers are continual, even or especially when sleeping. I am with Huck Finn, You cannot pray a lie. So vocally expressing a prayer is, or ought to be, merely a focusing into spoken words, what thoughts are already coursing through your mind.

As for "thee'in, thou'in and thy'in", those are quaint formalities. I am positive that "God" doesn't care a whit for their inclusion....

Again, as I posted above, "thou" is NOT more formal, although it may be "quaint" (as in "old fashioned"). "Thou" is familiar, not formal. It is certainly not more "corporate," by any means. I regret that it is a common misconception that the use of "thou" is regarded as something that distances us from our Father in heaven, rather than something that should be understood as language that draws us nearer to Him.

[Questing Beast]

Again, as I posted above, "thou" is NOT more formal, although it may be "quaint" (as in "old fashioned"). "Thou" is familiar, not formal. It is certainly not more "corporate," by any means. I regret that it is a common misconception that the use of "thou" is regarded as something that distances us from our Father in heaven, rather than something that should be understood as language that draws us nearer to Him.

I wouldn't know about that. I do know that the GAs teach that the formal, respectful "language of prayer" is thee, thou, thine, etc. So the commonly held view is at variance with historical fact? Now, where have we heard that before! It seems that history can go hang: we know what we know, now, and that is good enough to revise "history" as needed; or ignore it altogether if the point we are making is inconvenienced by historical facts.

Sorry for the departure.

The thing about "Saint Speak" that cracks me up is how people praying in church add "est" to the end of words. E.g: speakest, prayest, blessest, protectest(est), guardest, providest(est), and so forth. It is all a traditional humbug....

Edited September 20, 2011 by Questing Beast

[Nofear]

Author and grammarian Orson Scott Card wrote a nice piece for the Deseret News about some of the grammar associated with the thee/thou/thine:

Learn to Use the Language of Respect

[volgadon]

The thing about "Saint Speak" that cracks me up is how people praying in church add "est" to the end of words. E.g: speakest, prayest, blessest, protectest(est), guardest, providest(est), and so forth. It is all a traditional humbug....

One can't say "Thou speak, pray, bless, protect, guard, provide," and so forth. Mixing grammatical forms.

[David T]

There's a bit of a logic problem.

• The Church teaches that God is our loving Father, and we should view Him as we do our loving earthly parents, and speak to him with such candor.
  
• Out of respect, we should therefore use archaic English pronouns when we talk to God.
  
• It follows, therefore, that we should use archaic English pronouns to talk to our own earthly parents.
  

Do you know any Mormons who use archaic English to speak to their close, intimate earthly family members, or who would associate archaic english with how you talk to family? There's a disconnect here...

[William Schryver]

I wouldn't know about that. I do know that the GAs teach that the formal, respectful "language of prayer" is thee, thou, thine, etc. So the commonly held view is at variance with historical fact? Now, where have we heard that before! It seems that history can go hang: we know what we know, now, and that is good enough to revise "history" as needed; or ignore it altogether if the point we are making is inconvenienced by historical facts.

Sorry for the departure.

The thing about "Saint Speak" that cracks me up is how people praying in church add "est" to the end of words. E.g: speakest, prayest, blessest, protectest(est), guardest, providest(est), and so forth. It is all a traditional humbug....

Your failure to understand and your derisive use of the term "Saint Speak" are hereby noted, and justifiably ignored.

Incidently, "-est" is the archaic ending of the English verb conjugations of the "thou" (familar) form. It has nothing to do with "Saint Speak," and, if one were to read Shakespeare, you would find that he uses all these forms correctly. It is a misconception that this is the "language of scripture." It is nothing more or less than the language of the King James Bible translators, who were contemporary with Shakespeare. The familiar form persisted into the 19th century, but has since become archaic and effectively obsolete. Even so, an understanding of its origins is the mark of the educated and knowledgeable man or woman, just as ignorant mockery is quite frequently the mark of a fool.

Edited September 20, 2011 by William Schryver

[William Schryver]

One can't say "Thou speak, pray, bless, protect, guard, provide," and so forth. Mixing grammatical forms.

QFT

[William Schryver]

There's a bit of a logic problem.

• The Church teaches that God is our loving Father, and we should view Him as we do our loving earthly parents, and speak to him with such candor.
  
• Out of respect, we should therefore use archaic English pronouns when we talk to God.
  
• It follows, therefore, that we should use archaic English pronouns to talk to our own earthly parents.
  

Do you know any Mormons who use archaic English to speak to their close, intimate earthly family members, or who would associate archaic english with how you talk to family? There's a disconnect here...

There is no logical disconnect. The second person singular familiar form has become archaic in modern English, but that doesn't mean it is logically inconsistent that we continue to employ it in the language of prayer, nor does it mean that its employment in prayer transforms it into something it never was.

[Nofear]

Do you know any Mormons who use archaic English to speak to their close, intimate earthly family members, or who would associate archaic english with how you talk to family? There's a disconnect here...

I guess it's a pragmatic choice. From the article I linked:

When I was young and not yet married, I fancied the idea of raising my children with the use of the SPS within the intimacy of our home. But once married, I discovered that it sounded quite absurd to say, \"Wilt thou give me the remote, dear?\" or \"Pass thou the chips, please, if thou art through with them.\"

When you don't get what you're asking for till the other person stops laughing, you quickly lose your enthusiasm for using the [second person singular].

[David T]

There is no logical disconnect. The second person singular familiar form has become archaic in modern English, but that doesn't mean it is logically inconsistent that we continue to employ it in the language of prayer, nor does it mean that its employment in prayer transforms it into something it never was.

So is prayer supposed to be viewed practically the same as respectfully talking to Dad, or not?

Edited September 20, 2011 by nackhadlow

[William Schryver]

Author and grammarian Orson Scott Card wrote a nice piece for the Deseret News about some of the grammar associated with the thee/thou/thine:

Learn to Use the Language of Respect

I also recommend the Card article, although I think the title of the article leads to an incorrect notion: that the second person singular form of archaic English constitutes a more "respectful" language. As I wrote above, the "thou" form was not considered more respectful, but rather more familiar. "Familiar" is a word with the same etymological Latin origin as "family"; "thou" derives from the Latin "tu".

[CV75]

Again, as I posted above, "thou" is NOT more formal, although it may be "quaint" (as in "old fashioned"). "Thou" is familiar, not formal. It is certainly not more "corporate," by any means. I regret that it is a common misconception that the use of "thou" is regarded as something that distances us from our Father in heaven, rather than something that should be understood as language that draws us nearer to Him.

I think the misconception may be due to the unfamiliarity with using the familiar form and the attendant awkwardness, self-consciousness and care with which some struggle, kind of like Moroni’s awkward hands (Ether 12:24) and not being able to express himself in a more comfortable language (Mormon 9:33). This makes its use often appear formal in application and practice. However we get there, it is good to be humble so we can draw close. I'm also thinking that as our confidence waxes strong in the presence of God, our familiarity increases in a loving sense.

[William Schryver]

So is prayer supposed to be viewed practically the same as respectfully talking to Dad, or not?

You may view prayer as you wish.

I will only add that, when praying in Italian, one does not use the second person respectful form of "lei," but rather the second person familiar form of "tu." But when one speaks to a stranger on the street, one would employ the "lei" form, rather than "tu," which one would employ when speaking to a friend or family member. As missionaries, we were counseled to always use the "lei" form when speaking with young women, in order to maintain a respectful distance between us and them. (I confess, however, that I frequently violated that counsel. )

Edited September 20, 2011 by William Schryver