Robert F. Smith Posted September 18, 2011 Posted September 18, 2011 Is religion an abstract system of belief, or is it a way of life?John Gray just addressed this question in his “A Point of View: Can Religion Tell Us More Than Science?” in the BBC News Magazine, Sept 16, 2011, online at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14944470, and herewith some excerpts from his fascinating article:We tend to assume that religion is a question of what we believe or don't believe. It's an assumption with a long history in western philosophy, which has been reinforced in recent years by the dull debate on atheism. * * *Wittgenstein, . . commented that Frazer was much more savage than the savages he studied.* * *. . . the idea that religion is a relic of primitive thinking strikes me as itself incredibly primitive.* * *Science hasn't enabled us to dispense with myths. Instead it has become a vehicle for myths - chief among them, the myth of salvation through science. Many of the people who scoff at religion are sublimely confident that, by using science, humanity can march onwards to a better world. * * *Human beings don't live by argumentation, and it's only religious fundamentalists and ignorant rationalists who think the myths we live by are literal truths.* * *What we believe doesn't in the end matter very much. What matters is how we live.
thesometimesaint Posted September 18, 2011 Posted September 18, 2011 It is a combination of both.Religon without science is blind, and science without religion is lame.
Xander Posted September 18, 2011 Posted September 18, 2011 It is a way of life that is shaped by a set of beliefs.Why does it have to be one or the other?
Palerider Posted September 18, 2011 Posted September 18, 2011 (edited) Mormonism is the creation of culture, brought about by a belief system as well as psychological pressures and shared trauma serving as behavior modifiers. Science is seen as a welcome guest as long as it doesn't threaten the basic belief system (upon which it is demonized). Edited September 18, 2011 by Palerider
thesometimesaint Posted September 18, 2011 Posted September 18, 2011 Palerider:What is the shared trauma of Mormons around the world?
Deborah Posted September 18, 2011 Posted September 18, 2011 Science is seen as a welcome guest as long as it doesn't threaten the basic belief system (upon which it is demonized).CFR this. I've never seen the church threatened by science and the basis of gospel principles are based on faith not science. Various leaders may have expressed opinions about many things not scientifically founded but that is not the same as saying the church is threatened by science. We have always said things such as the creation, the flood etc are unexplained and people have had their opinions, but even scientists disagree on those kind of things.
Ahab Posted September 18, 2011 Posted September 18, 2011 CFR this. I've never seen the church threatened by science and the basis of gospel principles are based on faith not science. Various leaders may have expressed opinions about many things not scientifically founded but that is not the same as saying the church is threatened by science. We have always said things such as the creation, the flood etc are unexplained and people have had their opinions, but even scientists disagree on those kind of things.I understood him to mean science is a welcome guest to those with religious beliefs as long as so-called science isn't seen as a threat to those people's religous beliefs.I believe I welcome all that is learned through actual science although I don't agree with what some so-called scientists theorize based on what they have observed through science.
Fig-bearing Thistle Posted September 19, 2011 Posted September 19, 2011 Is religion an abstract system of belief, or is it a way of life?Yes. 1
Bernard Gui Posted September 19, 2011 Posted September 19, 2011 (edited) Mormonism is the creation of culture, brought about by a belief system as well as psychological pressures and shared trauma serving as behavior modifiers. Science is seen as a welcome guest as long as it doesn't threaten the basic belief system (upon which it is demonized).Science is also the creation of culture, brought about by a belief system as well as psychologicalpressures and shared trauma serving as behavior modifiers.Many cultures have been successful without the benefit of the modern Western scientific approach to life...until, of course, they come up against the weaponry devised by Western science.Bernard Edited September 19, 2011 by Bernard Gui 1
Bernard Gui Posted September 19, 2011 Posted September 19, 2011 (edited) What we believe doesn't in the end matter very much. What matters is how we live."Men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause and do many things of their ownfree will, and bring to pass much righteousness. For the power is in them, whereinthe are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall innowise lose their reward." D&C 58:27-28Bernard Edited September 19, 2011 by Bernard Gui
Palerider Posted September 19, 2011 Posted September 19, 2011 Palerider:What is the shared trauma of Mormons around the world?Most cultures (I believe) are shaped primarily in their infant stages and then go through less aggressive change as they evolve (with some exceptions, just generalizing here). I think the shared early persecution and pioneer experiences set the stage for close cohesion in the church. Once that pattern was established it became an integral part of the culture. Kind of an "Us against the world mentality" that sometimes serves the church well and at others not so well..........
Palerider Posted September 19, 2011 Posted September 19, 2011 Science is also the creation of culture, brought about by a belief system as well as psychologicalpressures and shared trauma serving as behavior modifiers.Many cultures have been successful without the benefit of the modern Western scientific approach to life...until, of course, they come up against the weaponry devised by Western science.BernardWouldn't neccessarily disagree with this.......Might be interested to know how you personally measure a successful culture......... but that would be another thread
Palerider Posted September 19, 2011 Posted September 19, 2011 I understood him to mean science is a welcome guest to those with religious beliefs as long as so-called science isn't seen as a threat to those people's religous beliefs.I believe I welcome all that is learned through actual science although I don't agree with what some so-called scientists theorize based on what they have observed through science.Excellent response Ahab. As opposed to some here who seem overly defensive..............
Bernard Gui Posted September 19, 2011 Posted September 19, 2011 Excellent response Ahab. As opposed to some here who seem overly defensive..............Don't see much defensiveness going on.Bernard
Palerider Posted September 19, 2011 Posted September 19, 2011 Don't see much defensiveness going on.BernardI'm not surprized........
Zakuska Posted September 19, 2011 Posted September 19, 2011 Seems to me that Paul joins science and religion into one, the being of Jesus Christ.1 Cor 122 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Calm Posted September 19, 2011 Posted September 19, 2011 (edited) I'm not surprized........The dramatic and emotionally laden words threatened and demonized are aggressive terminology so it does not surprise me that you think some responses were defensive, I would have expected you to expect defensiveness whether it was there or not. Our expectations of others' behavior are generally meant...at least in our minds. Edited September 19, 2011 by calmoriah
Robert F. Smith Posted September 19, 2011 Author Posted September 19, 2011 (edited) It is a way of life that is shaped by a set of beliefs.Why does it have to be one or the other?It is a combination of both.Religon without science is blind, and science without religion is lame.Yes, I agree, and (as Mike Quinn says) "the unexamined faith is not worth having."However, few Mormons are intellectuals, and most are not philosophically sophisticated. I don't know whether we should define the average Mormon as participating in Paul Ricoeur's "first naivete," but it is clear that even sophisticated Mormons eschew any sort of systematic theology -- and are proud of it.We few on this Board may take such matters more seriously, but only a minuscule percentage of the millions of Mormons worldwide are even aware of our existence. Thus, when someone suggests that religion for the masses is belief in actu (a way of life) they are simply making the valid etiological observation that religion does not originate within a rational worldview, but rather is a product of numinous and mythopoeic traditions and influences ("true myths," as C. S. Lewis would say). The typical Mormon convert, for example, joins the Church due to the power of simple bearing of testimony by sincere missionaries. Being a part of the Saints of the Last Days is, thus, finally a communal exercise designed to bring apotheosis to the broadest possible range of humanity, rather than an effort to create a systematic theology on par with that of Thomas Aquinas. Edited September 19, 2011 by Robert F. Smith
Calm Posted September 19, 2011 Posted September 19, 2011 ???A man who fears no kimchee fears nothing and thus is never defensive and never needs to see defensiveness in others.
Bernard Gui Posted September 19, 2011 Posted September 19, 2011 If you do not fear kimchee, it is out of ignorance. There is much danger there. My son, Bonifacio, once asked, "How can I face my friends when I have a father who eats kimchee?" He later married a nice Korean girl, and now makes his own kimchee. Yes, there is much to fear. Bernard
Storm Rider Posted September 19, 2011 Posted September 19, 2011 I am puzzled by the question. As others have said, why cannot it not be both. For many it is a belief system and a way of life. For others it is a a way of life. For still others, it is a belief system that is not an active part of their life.
Pahoran Posted September 20, 2011 Posted September 20, 2011 The dramatic and emotionally laden words threatened and demonized are aggressive terminology so it does not surprise me that you think some responses were defensive, I would have expected you to expect defensiveness whether it was there or not. Our expectations of others' behavior are generally meant...at least in our minds.Palerider wants to see defensiveness because he wants to believe that his pop-psych platitudes are threatening to us. So first he pokes the bear and then he is eau seau bewildered that the bear doesn't like being poked.Poor Palerider.Regards,Pahoran
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