No Death Before The Fall

[BCSpace]

How do you define "remaining forever, and having no end", which is referring to the created state of all things?

I think you have this verse in an arm-bar forcing a tappout.

Read it a little more carefully and note the emphasis I gave. They would have remained forever in the state they were in AFTER they were created. So this is the garden state, not the state they were in when they were first created (and then placed into the garden state).

The verse needs no forcing or twisting. It's just plain 'ol BoM english.

Edited July 22, 2011 by BCSpace

[BCSpace]

Although some would claim the story of Noah is somewhat diminished if, as an alternative, he could have just taken his family into the foothills to avoid the flood, or emigrated to a neighboring country and joined with people there.

Or perhaps he might have been in the direct path of the Flood as the Black Sea filled and it would take more than a few days to round up his scattered herds and family if he were given no warning. But God showed forth His power by warning him and saving him in the ark. Just speculation of course.

[BCSpace]

Oh boy don't even get me started on the universal flood...Although I will say that you have alot in common with Bruce R. McConkie...he taught that the geological processes that created such geological wonders as the Grand Canyon took place over weeks rather than millions of years...now that is just plain bizaar.

Wouldn't worry about it if not found in a work published by the Church. BRM can have his outlandish opinions and still be a worthy apostle of the Lord. The doctrine of the Church is that there is no doctrine on the age of the earth and the time periods mentioned in D&C 77 do not include the time for the earth to be prepared as a dwelling place for man. In other words, besides evolution, a 4.5 billion year old earth swims without conflict with LDS doctrine (which of course evolution also needs).

[BCSpace]

But if there is a God, He/She did not want His/Her existance to be able to be tested by any known scientific measurement.

John 7:17 is quite scientific.

[katherine the great]

Here's how to reconcile it and accept evolution exactly as scientists do. Start with 2 Nephi 2:22:

And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were AFTER they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

This verse shows us a creative period of time BEFORE the garden state of no death. This prior period does not have a state of no death as one of it's properties So here is where evolution can swim. So.....

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Big Bang 14 billion years ago.

Creation of solar system and earth 4.5 billion years ago.

Evolution of all living things begins.

Evolution of homo sapiens ~ 1 million years ago. Their spirits are not yet literal spirit children of God.

When all is ready, literal spirit children of God are born into a pair of homo sapiens and at some time placed into the garden state of no death to await the Fall. Everything prior to this is the aforementioned creative period from 2 Nephi 2:22.

The Fall. Because there was a garden state of no death prior, one can truthfully say there was no death before the Fall.

Life and evolution proceeds apace. Compared to geologic or even evolutionary time, a garden state lasting up to several hundred years or so will likely not be evident in any fossil or DNA record.

-----------------------------------

Now you have a basic framework that does not conflict with LDS doctrine. Certainly no conflict with D&C 77 which we have doctrine on that also allows for this. All other details and questions become more minor and can be worked out or are just something we don't know because God or science hasn't revealed it.

One I will briefly address is the change in spirits. If true, this could explain the sudden rise of civilization. Why would big-brained modern homo sapiens go several hundred thousand years before civilization arises? Because their spirits weren't capable of utilizing the available resources. This pushes back the fall date closer to 8000-10,000 B.C. but I think it not unreasonable.

If one does not like a change in spirits, one could substitute the revealed knowledge of God.

I will be gone most of the day but will be happy to explain further when I get back. I'm sure cinepro, who actually would love to agree with me, will be happy to try and throw wrenches into the system.

In your hypothetical creation scenario, do only the children of Adam and Eve have spirits or do all the children of the other people outside the garden's children have spirits too? Your question about civilization is actually relatively easy. Human beings don't generally change their behavior unless their environment demands it. As long as there was enough food and resources to go around during the Paleolithic era, there was no need to start farming on any wide scale basis. As populations grew, and there was more competition for resources, people started farming and domesticating animals. Technology could travel fairly rapidly as people traded commodities and ideas. So, in a nutshell, people were perfectly happy hunting and gathering until it didn't work anymore because they had multiplied and replenished bountifully. That's why the paleolithic lasted so long.

[ldsfaqs]

No Death Before The Fall Really???? Does anyone still believe this???

Two things your not considering.

1. That the 6,000 years is not actually 6,000 years, but much longer. For example, it's symbolism, like with Genesis. Most don't necessarily believe that there were 7 days related to the creation, that it's symbolic of a longer period.

2. There is a "Adamic Race" i.e. Israel, separate from the children of men, i.e. others of the earth, thus everything happening with Adam and his posterity is referring to that race.

Either one of these is generally how LDS deal with the seeming contradictions with scripture and science.

Edited July 22, 2011 by ldsfaqs

[ldsfaqs]

The Garden of Eden was created on the fifth day, when Adam was organized. So, the entire earth was under the creation process, which included death, and I suggest that it was only until the fifth day that process ceased, and Adam appeared on the scene in the Garden where there was no death.

As an aside, I find it as an interesting question what boundary Adam crossed when he left the Garden and passed into the world.

Exactly.... Only in the Garden was their no "death", and they were immortal. Leaving the Garden, they went into the lone and dreary world, where they must survive by the sweat of their brow.

There is no LDS doctrine, contrary to the OP which states that the entire earth there was no death or life outside of Adam. In fact, LDS doctrine states the opposite. This leaves plenty room for other possibility's, such as the one I lean toward, which is my #2 above. Seems the OP doesn't know his scriptures and doctrine well enough? This is basic stuff.

Edited July 22, 2011 by ldsfaqs

[Franktalk]

While my opinion of Noah's flood is regional, not global, I was watching a show last night regarding the formation of a canyon that happened due to a great post glacial flood in which the canyon and erosion formed over a 48 hour to six week period. I can't find the reference off hand, but it indicates large rock or erosion formations can indeed happen over a short, very short period of time.

I know of two. One is a large canyon cut from a mud flow from Mount St. Helen. The other is the Columbia Gorge. The evidence from the Columbia Gorge is overwhelming that it happened quickly and in a massive way. But I must add that there were several massive floods that carved out the Columbia Gorge. As for Noah's flood, I believe it happened on a global scale. Peter said that the earth before the flood perished.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Yes. There are still people who believe it.

I am one

[LeSellers]

Read it a little more carefully and note the emphasis I gave. They would have remained forever in the state they were in AFTER they were created. So this is the garden state, not the state they were in when they were first created (and then placed into the garden state).

So, Eden was in the state of New Jersey, not in the state of Missouri?

Lehi

Edited July 22, 2011 by LeSellers

[firepatch36]

I view it as no spiritual death before the fall, but plenty of physical death.

[Senator]

Read it a little more carefully and note the emphasis I gave.

I did...probably 20 times. And each time I had to force myself to inject your spin into the reading.

They would have remained forever in the state they were in AFTER they were created. So this is the garden state, not the state they were in when they were first created (and then placed into the garden state).

For this to work, it would mean that all created things, marching happily along in a mortal state, all of a sudden transform to an immortal state during Adam's hiatus in the garden, then transform back to a mortal state after the fall?

Not working for me. Sorry

What I don't undersstand is why the need to twist scripture to get it to jive with contemporary thought. It is what it is. If it conflicts, it conflicts.

[thesometimesaint]

Lehi:

That was BAD. :rofl:

[LeSellers]

That was BAD. :rofl:

I try my best worst.

Lehi

[Marcelo]

Bruce R. Mckonkie:

"In Eden we will see all things created in a paradisiacal state—without death, without procreation, without probationary experiences."

Bible Dictionary:FALL

Before the fall, ... There were no sin, no death, and no children among any of the earthly creations.

No death also implies in no procreation (all things in the same state). But LDS scriptures says exactly the opposite, there was procreation before the FALL:

Abraham 4:

11 And the Gods said: Let us prepare the earth to bring forth grass; the herb yielding seed; the fruit tree yielding fruit, after his kind, whose seed in itself yieldeth its own likeness upon the earth; and it was so, even as they ordered.

12 And the Gods organized the earth to bring forth grass from its own seed, and the herb to bring forth herb from its own seed, yielding seed after his kind; and the earth to bring forth the tree from its own seed, yielding fruit, whose seed could only bring forth the same in itself, after his kind; and the Gods saw that they were obeyed.

The plants were procreating since the 3rd period of Creation

22 And the Gods said: We will bless them, and cause them to be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas or great waters; and cause the fowl to multiply in the earth.

25 ...and the Gods saw they would obey.[/]

The animal kingdom obeyed the order of to be fruitful and multiply since the 5th period of creation.

If there was procreation in the vegetal and animal kingdom before the FALL, according to to Book of Abraham, how Bruce R. Mckonkie and the Bible Dictionary can say that there was no procreation nor death???

[cinepro]

There is no LDS doctrine, contrary to the OP which states that the entire earth there was no death or life outside of Adam. In fact, LDS doctrine states the opposite. This leaves plenty room for other possibility's, such as the one I lean toward, which is my #2 above. Seems the OP doesn't know his scriptures and doctrine well enough? This is basic stuff.

CFR that LDS doctrine "states the opposite".

The Church is pretty consistent in teaching that the entire planet was without physical death and "paradisaical" until the Fall of Adam. The "limited paradise" theories are interesting and scientifically necessary. But they're not "doctrinal".

The plan required the Creation, and that in turn required both the Fall and the Atonement. These are the three fundamental components of the plan. The creation of a paradisiacal planet came from God. Mortality and death came into the world through the Fall of Adam. Immortality and the possibility of eternal life were provided by the Atonement of Jesus Christ. The Creation, the Fall, and the Atonement were planned long before the actual work of the Creation began.

Elder Russell M. Nelson

President Joseph Fielding Smith stated that in this verse the Lord “revealed to Abraham that Adam was subject to Kolob’s time before his transgression.” 19 According to President Brigham Young, Abraham 5:13 [Abr. 5:13] also means that before the Fall of Adam, the earth was near the very throne of God. But when the Fall occurred, the earth literally fell or moved from the physical presence of God to its present position in our solar system. When all the effects of the Fall of Adam are finally overcome, the earth will literally move back into the presence of God. Here are President Young’s words:

“When the earth was framed and brought into existence and man was placed upon it, it was near the throne of our Father in heaven. … But when man fell, the earth fell into space, and took up its abode in this planetary system. … This is the glory the earth came from, and when it is glorified it will return again unto the presence of the Father, and it will dwell there, and these intelligent beings that I am looking at, if they live worthy of it, will dwell upon this earth.” 20

The power by which the effects of Adam’s Fall are overcome for all created things, including the earth, is the Atonement of Jesus Christ (see D&C 76:40–43; Moses 7:48–62).

The Book of Abraham: A Most Remarkable Book

Here's what Harold B. Lee taught, as published in the Priesthood/RS curriculum in 2000:

… Besides the Fall having had to do with Adam and Eve, causing a change to come over them, that change affected all human nature, all of the natural creations, all of the creation of animals, plants—all kinds of life were changed. The earth itself became subject to death. … How it took place no one can explain, and anyone who would attempt to make an explanation would be going far beyond anything the Lord has told us. But a change was wrought over the whole face of the creation, which up to that time had not been subject to death. From that time henceforth all in nature was in a state of gradual dissolution until mortal death was to come, after which there would be required a restoration in a resurrected state. …

Here's what the young men are taught in their priesthood classes:

Explain that physical death, known also as temporal death, was introduced into the world as a consequence of the Fall. As a result of the Fall, all people and all forms of life upon the earth must suffer a physical death, a separation of spirit and body.

Aaronic Priesthood Manual: The Fall of Adam

And Wilford Woodruff...

We acknowledge that through Adam all have died, that death through the fall must pass upon the whole human family, also upon the beasts of the field, the fishes of the sea and the fowls of the air and all the works of God, as far as this earth is concerned. It is a law that is unchangeable and irrevocable. … The Savior himself tasted of death; He died to redeem the world; His body was laid in the tomb, but it did not see corruption; and after three days it arose from the grave and put on immortality. He was the first fruit of the resurrection. 14

And this...

Genesis 1 evidently teaches us about the preparation of the earth for humankind to inhabit and about the creation in heaven of the original plants, animals, and humans—Adam and Eve. Their bodies were physical but not yet subject to death. Genesis 2 evidently teaches us about the placing of these original plants, animals, and humans on the earth in their immortal state.

In The Beginning: A Latter-day Perspective

Here's how it is taught to the college kids in Institute:

(3-11) Genesis 3:19 . The Fall of Adam Introduced Two Kinds of death into the World

“Because of Adam’s transgression, a spiritual death—banishment from the presence of the Lord—as well as the temporal death, were pronounced upon him. The spiritual death came at the time of the fall and banishment; and the seeds of the temporal death were also sown at that same time; that is, a physical change came over Adam and Eve, who became mortal, and were thus subject to the ills of the flesh which resulted in their gradual decline to old age and finally the separation of the spirit from the body.” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:111; for further information on the principle that spiritual death also resulted from the Fall, see D&C 29:40–41 ; Alma 42:7 .)

Many people of the world teach that physical death has always been here and therefore could not have begun with Adam and Eve. President Joseph Fielding Smith commented regarding this idea:

“Modern education declares that there never was such a thing as the fall of man, but that conditions have always gone on in the same way as now in this mortal world. Here, say they, death and mutation have always held sway as natural conditions on this earth and everywhere throughout the universe the same laws obtain. It is declared that man has made his ascent to the exalted place he now occupies through countless ages of development which has gradually distinguished him from lower forms of life.

“Such a doctrine of necessity discards the story of Adam and the Garden of Eden, which it looks upon as a myth coming down to us from an early age of foolish ignorance and superstition. Moreover, it is taught that since death was always here, and a natural condition prevailing throughout all space, there could not possibly come a redemption from Adam’s transgression, hence there was no need for a Savior for a fallen world.” ( Doctrines of Salvation, 1:315.)

Teachers and students may disbelieve and ignore what the manual teaches, but when talking about what is "taught" by the Church (or CES), it's the manual that is the reference.

[mfbukowski]

So, Eden was in the state of New Jersey, not in the state of Missouri?

Lehi

Ain't nobody gonna tell me that heaven is in Joisey

[thesometimesaint]

cinepro:

Adam and Eve were created THEN introduced to the GoE. I don't know how much more doctrinal you can get.

[Franktalk]

Let us just look at what is said.

Genesis 2:17

17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

First of all Adam must have known death (at least be able to observe it) so he would even know what this promise meant. I have to believe that Adam understood this command. Yet what kind of death are we talking about? If Adam did not know he was mortal and eating the fruit he obtained that knowledge does that satisfy the verse? Is it more spiritual like what Paul experienced on a daily basis.

1 Corinthians 15:31

31I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily

Because Adam was innocent without knowledge he did not have to die daily to the world. Yet when Adam took on the knowledge of how the world and good fight each other then Adam took on death of the world in order to keep with God. The death is internal so it can be called death to Adam just as Paul described death to him self. Since God said "in the day" and we know that Adam did not die that day then I have to go with what Paul experienced. God is telling us that it is not physical death, at least in part.

It is very possible that the garden offered protection from the world. This makes sense to me because the garden is where we find the tree of life. So when Adam took the knowledge he had to be cast out from the protection so he could exercise that knowledge and make choices.

I think that Genesis gives us what happened but we must use the rest of scripture to fill in the gaps. And I think if God wanted us to know all of the details He would have had Moses write them down. Now I do believe the entire universe fell into decay and death.

Romans 8:22

22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

And what good things are in store for the creation when we get a new earth?

and

Romans 11:12

12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Does this not speak of the attitude of God? Can this not apply to Adam and Eve? I think it does.

Edited July 22, 2011 by Franktalk

[BCSpace]

Read it a little more carefully and note the emphasis I gave.

I did...probably 20 times. And each time I had to force myself to inject your spin into the reading.

What part of "state in which they were after they were created" did you not understand?

The state they were in after they were created is the state of no death. The state before they were created is an undefined creative process state.

They would have remained forever in the state they were in AFTER they were created. So this is the garden state, not the state they were in when they were first created (and then placed into the garden state).

For this to work, it would mean that all created things, marching happily along in a mortal state, all of a sudden transform to an immortal state during Adam's hiatus in the garden, then transform back to a mortal state after the fall?

Depending on whether or not you believe the whole world was in the garden state or just the garden, sure. The question being what were Adam and Eve cast out into? But that is a question that has no bearing on this issue.

Not working for me. Sorry

The reason why it could and should work for you is because you have the same process (in reverse) for the Fall. It's not any kind of stretch at all for God to backwards in the process. Afterall, He can raise the dead. So while you're obvious free to accept of reject the overall hypothesis, where you're wrong is in that this hypothesis is something radical or stretchy. It is a very easy fit.

What I don't undersstand is why the need to twist scripture to get it to jive with contemporary thought. It is what it is. If it conflicts, it conflicts.

I agree. That is why this hypothesis is so attractive. No twisting, no conflict.

[Nathair/|\]

Must the Garden be in the same physical dimension as this earth?

[Rivers]

I agree. That is why this hypothesis is so attractive. No twisting, no conflict.

I like your hypothesis. But there there is one question I have about it,

In your hypothesis, are Adam and Eve the sole ancestors of all humans living today?

[Rivers]

Must the Garden be in the same physical dimension as this earth?

I don't think so. I like to think of the Garden as being some kind of spiritual or metaphysical realm.

[Senator]

The state they were in after they were created is the state of no death. The state before they were created is an undefined creative process state.

When, exactly were they created?

Frankly, you're making no sense to me. So I'll let it go and agree to disagree.

[Rivers]

The Church is pretty consistent in teaching that the entire planet was without physical death and "paradisaical" until the Fall of Adam. The "limited paradise" theories are interesting and scientifically necessary. But they're not "doctrinal".

True. But LDS doctrine is capable of changing.