Tithing

[bluebell]

"Otherwise, he has more important things to worry about than what will happen to you in the eternities if you lie on a recommend interview. THAT should be something YOU would be worrying about."

At a Sunday School session last Sunday the woman giving the talk said "I think only 25% of our ward pays full tithe and the other 75% are just partial."

I found this out of line to speak about it in an open meeting if tithe is truly a personal issue. I believe her intent was to shame and warn fellow members to start paying. I go to church hoping I'll hear something positive and joyful and what I hear is 'be fearful. You may not be good enough'.

I'm wondering how she would even know that?

[LeSellers]

I'm wondering how she would even know that?

I did, too.

Short of her being the Bishop's wife (and he talks in his sleep), there's no way.

And, even if those conditions were met, she had no business saying it anyway. Shame on her.

Lehi

[IloveaMormon]

The woman who was giving the talk asked one of the Bishops counselors who was present if her statistics were accurate and he said 'yes' so I took this to mean her statement about tithing was endorsed by him.

I think what she said was interesting because it actually is a big part of being 'worthy' in the church. I think in her mind she was 'warning' the rest of the group that there are dire consequences to not following the tithing rule. So for me the judgmental and innappropriatness of her remark is overshadowed by her fear based concern. I think she was being 'true to the spirit of the church doctrine' and forwarning those who were falling behind. Sweet and considerate in a way but troubling to me as I see fear being used as a tool to oppress people being anti- Chrisitan.

[ELF1024]

The woman who was giving the talk asked one of the Bishops counselors who was present if her statistics were accurate and he said 'yes' so I took this to mean her statement about tithing was endorsed by him.

Totally disturbing! I would consider speaking to my Stake President if it was me.

I think what she said was interesting because it actually is a big part of being 'worthy' in the church. I think in her mind she was 'warning' the rest of the group that there are dire consequences to not following the tithing rule. So for me the judgmental and inappropriateness of her remark is overshadowed by her fear based concern. I think she was being 'true to the spirit of the church doctrine' and forewarning those who were falling behind. Sweet and considerate in a way but troubling to me as I see fear being used as a tool to oppress people being anti-Christian.

There are much better ways to "prefect the saints" than to go about it that way.

Edited June 24, 2011 by ELF1024

[bluebell]

The woman who was giving the talk asked one of the Bishops counselors who was present if her statistics were accurate and he said 'yes' so I took this to mean her statement about tithing was endorsed by him.

I think what she said was interesting because it actually is a big part of being 'worthy' in the church. I think in her mind she was 'warning' the rest of the group that there are dire consequences to not following the tithing rule. So for me the judgmental and innappropriatness of her remark is overshadowed by her fear based concern. I think she was being 'true to the spirit of the church doctrine' and forwarning those who were falling behind. Sweet and considerate in a way but troubling to me as I see fear being used as a tool to oppress people being anti- Chrisitan.

I would guess though, that the numbers match the numbers for active verses inactive in a ward and that most (probably not all, but i would guess most) of the people who aren't full tithe payers also aren't at church on most sundays.

I agree her concern was probably sincere but i'm wondering if it missed the point entirely, which to me would probably be-not that so many people aren't full tithe payers, but that so many people don't go to church.

I would say that for most people, not paying a full tithing is more a symptom of a bigger disease, than the disease itself.

AS far as using fear to help people live the gospel-i'm with you in part but then i know that in the NT Jude 1:23 seems to say that using fear can be a legitimate way to get people to change, so it's a tough call on exactly how fear should fit into the gospel message.

[mfbukowski]

"Otherwise, he has more important things to worry about than what will happen to you in the eternities if you lie on a recommend interview. THAT should be something YOU would be worrying about."

At a Sunday School session last Sunday the woman giving the talk said "I think only 25% of our ward pays full tithe and the other 75% are just partial."

I found this out of line to speak about it in an open meeting if tithe is truly a personal issue. I believe her intent was to shame and warn fellow members to start paying. I go to church hoping I'll hear something positive and joyful and what I hear is 'be fearful. You may not be good enough'.

You are right- it was none of her business.

The reality of course is that maybe only about half of baptized members are active, and of those who are active, not everyone pays a full tithe. Temple recommend holders are a relatively small percentage of the total of those who have been baptized, and though we can do better, it has always been this way.

We need to work on our own problems and leave others to do the same with our service and encouragement to help them- it is certainly not appropriate to make remarks like this one.

But guess what? We all mess up!

She was doing her best I guess to encourage others to be full tithe payers, but her choice of words probably did the exact opposite! Oh well, no one is perfect!

[Questing Beast]

...

So any feedback is appreciated.

JMS

I'm in a bit of a rush so I haven't read through the responses yet. Somebody covered this I bet. But the fact is, bishops are not allowed to question the tither if his/her definition is net or gross income. The TR question does not ask that distinction.

I look at it this way: in socialist countries the tax rate is far in excess of 50%. Should a tither be expected to pay on the pre-tax dollars? If the tax rate was say 90%, you'd take nothing home at all. Ridiculous.

So pay on the net after taxes. And then pay tithing on any tax refund. And on your SS. And on any annuity drawn out from a retirement saving nest egg....

[cinepro]

I wish the Church would publish tithing stats like the Seventh Day Adventists do:

Contributions In US Dollars

Tithe

$1,891,325,291

Tithe Per Capita

$120.07

Sabbath School Mission Offerings

$61,198,264

Total Tithe and Offerings

$2,710,018,856

Total Tithe and Offerings Per Capita

$172.05

That would be interesting.

[mnn727]

Tithing is 10% of your 'increase'. How you choose to define 'increase' is between you and God.

That is the only answer allowable.

[rpn]

I'm surprised that people are personalyzing the woman's statements. Those are the common statistics cited based on national surveys, and even over all church statistics. I doubt she was commenting on her own ward.

[TAO]

I wish the Church would publish tithing stats like the Seventh Day Adventists do:

That would be interesting.

Actually, I am rather glad the church doesn't do this. It allows for outside groups not to pressure them about anything - after all, they cannot see the actual numbers.

But yah, that's my opinion =)

Best Wishes,

TAO

[cinepro]

Actually, I am rather glad the church doesn't do this. It allows for outside groups not to pressure them about anything - after all, they cannot see the actual numbers.

But yah, that's my opinion =)

Best Wishes,

TAO

Have you ever heard of the Seventh-day Adventists getting any sort of pressure from their publishing of their numbers? Or any non-profit?

[LeSellers]

Have you ever heard of the Seventh-day Adventists getting any sort of pressure from their publishing of their numbers? Or any non-profit?

Why would they?

Satan doesn't care about any of them nearly as much as he cares about frustrating The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Lehi

[Ariarates]

USmerica does not have low taxes. We pay high taxes, on the whole.

If the example in the OP is even a little bit realistic, I'm with you on this one, Lehi. I live in a European welfare state and I'm in my country's top tax bracket and I don't pay anything near 40% income tax.

On another note, I too sometimes wonder what happens to all the tithing money. We're talking billions here. Every year. Ostling & Ostling, in their book "Mormon America", put the number between 3 and 5 billion. My own computer model says 2.5 billion (I'm assuming as little as 10% of the active membership pays titing). Now that's just "revenue" - there's many more billions tied up in real estate. These are mind boggling numbers. What happens to those billions every year? Why does the church continue to need these billions every year?

[bluebell]

If the example in the OP is even a little bit realistic, I'm with you on this one, Lehi. I live in a European welfare state and I'm in my country's top tax bracket and I don't pay anything near 40% income tax.

On another note, I too sometimes wonder what happens to all the tithing money. We're talking billions here. Every year. Ostling & Ostling, in their book "Mormon America", put the number between 3 and 5 billion. My own computer model says 2.5 billion (I'm assuming as little as 10% of the active membership pays titing). Now that's just "revenue" - there's many more billions tied up in real estate. These are mind boggling numbers. What happens to those billions every year? Why does the church continue to need these billions every year?

Have you tried calculating how much it cost, on average, to build one chapel (and one temple) and then used the numbers to figure out how much the church spends just on building costs each year?

It would be interesting.

It would be interesting also to know how much money the church spends each year on missionary activies (like printing books of mormon, doing the dvds, and whatever else) since tithing goes towards that as well.

[cinepro]

If the example in the OP is even a little bit realistic, I'm with you on this one, Lehi. I live in a European welfare state and I'm in my country's top tax bracket and I don't pay anything near 40% income tax.

On another note, I too sometimes wonder what happens to all the tithing money. We're talking billions here. Every year. Ostling & Ostling, in their book "Mormon America", put the number between 3 and 5 billion. My own computer model says 2.5 billion (I'm assuming as little as 10% of the active membership pays titing). Now that's just "revenue" - there's many more billions tied up in real estate. These are mind boggling numbers. What happens to those billions every year? Why does the church continue to need these billions every year?

I did like President Hinckley's comments on the matter in 1997:

A recent magazine article praised us as a well-run financial institution of great wealth. It grossly exaggerated the figures.

The money the Church receives from faithful members is consecrated. It is the Lord’s purse. Our Church facilities are money consuming and not money producing. We are not a financial institution. We are The Church of Jesus Christ. The funds for which we are responsible involve a sacred trust to be handled with absolute honesty and integrity, and with great prudence as the dedicated consecrations of the people.

We feel a tremendous responsibility to you who make these contributions. We feel an even greater responsibility to the Lord whose money this is.

[mfbukowski]

But the fact is, bishops are not allowed to question the tither if his/her definition is net or gross income.

Just for the record I want to set this straight.

Of course bishops would be "allowed" to ask such a question. I don't know of a single question bishops are prohibited from asking under the proper circumstances.

On the other hand, typically such a distinction would be irrelevant. It is, however, up to the bishop in certain circumstances to judge who is and who is not a "full" tithe payer and so it might be appropriate under certain circumstances to clarify the terms of an individuals understanding of what tithing really is.

[Yirgacheffe]

Just for the record I want to set this straight.

Of course bishops would be "allowed" to ask such a question. I don't know of a single question bishops are prohibited from asking under the proper circumstances.

On the other hand, typically such a distinction would be irrelevant. It is, however, up to the bishop in certain circumstances to judge who is and who is not a "full" tithe payer and so it might be appropriate under certain circumstances to clarify the terms of an individuals understanding of what tithing really is.

What happens if the bishops says gross and the tither says net or some such difference of opinion?

[Ariarates]

Have you tried calculating how much it cost, on average, to build one chapel (and one temple) and then used the numbers to figure out how much the church spends just on building costs each year?

It would be interesting.

It would be interesting also to know how much money the church spends each year on missionary activies (like printing books of mormon, doing the dvds, and whatever else) since tithing goes towards that as well.

Interesting but speculative, given the absense of data.

I personally think BYU and CES cost the most. The rest: who knows? Lesson materials cost money, but scripture sales generate revenue, as do a host of other ways you can financially support the church and buy church materials in the distribution centers. As long as you don't know the underlying data, it's all conjecture and each uncertainty amplifies the next.

[bluebell]

Interesting but speculative, given the absense of data.

I personally think BYU and CES cost the most. The rest: who knows? Lesson materials cost money, but scripture sales generate revenue, as do a host of other ways you can financially support the church and buy church materials in the distribution centers. As long as you don't know the underlying data, it's all conjecture and each uncertainty amplifies the next.

I agree.

You didn't mind conjecturing in the previous post though, so i didn't see a reason that you would mind conjecturing now. It only seems right, if you ARE going to conjecture, to follow it all the way through-otherwise it looks like bias.

[bluebell]

What happens if the bishops says gross and the tither says net or some such difference of opinion?

The bishop isn't allowed to say 'gross'.

The last thing i read on it declared that the churc has defined 'increase' as 'income' and that it's between the person and the Lord how they are going to work with that definition. Anyone who attempts to define it any further than that for anyone other than themselves is out of line.

I'm guessing that MB is talking about an example where someone declared themselves as a full tithe payer, obviously had a well paying job and all that, yet paid very little as tithing that year.

Edited June 26, 2011 by bluebell

[Ariarates]

You didn't mind conjecturing in the previous post though, so i didn't see a reason that you would mind conjecturing now. It only seems right, if you ARE going to conjecture, to follow it all the way through-otherwise it looks like bias.

There is a difference. In my model, I only have one element of uncertainty: the number of tithe payers. That single uncertainty is what the model is designed to simulate. It's a Monte Carlo simulation where I have kept the number of tithe payers in a range of 10 to 40% of all active members. The only assumption I make, therefore, is that there are areas in the world where only 10% of all active members pay tithing, as well as areas where up to 40% do.

However, if you have more than one element of uncertainty, the degree of uncertainty multiplies with each instance. That's why, under the present circumstances, it would be useless to say anything with any degree of certainty about the church's expenses.

[Thinking]

If you are serious about getting out of debt, there are tools available to do it, but they can be very dangerous if used poorly. Do your research, make sure you know your credit score. Make a list of all of your assets, and all your debt. Put it on paper, along with your income and expenses.

We agree on something.

[LDSToronto]

The question is: "Are you a full tithe payer?"

It is a yes or no question.

It's between you and the Lord.

But I can tell you this- if you have a temple recommend, and drive a fancy car and live in a fancy house, and your annual tithing statement shows your total tithing was $12.85, I think it would be reasonable to expect some kind of conversation with the bishop during tithing settlement.

If it's really between "you and the Lord", why must members declare tithing status to the bishop each year? And, why is it a question on the temple recommend interview? Seems like it's more than just "between you and the Lord".

H.

[bluebell]

If it's really between "you and the Lord", why must members declare tithing status to the bishop each year? And, why is it a question on the temple recommend interview? Seems like it's more than just "between you and the Lord".

H.

Because 'return and report' to those above us is a doctrine of the gospel-one Christ followed Himself.