Tithing

[jskains]

I do not have any experiences with Tithing like finding money in the right place, or having my car magically get to where it needs to go on an empty tank or find $100 in the couch when I desprately need it. But I do it because I support the organization I trust as God's organization and want to see it succeed.

The problem is the reality of mathmatics. We live in a very expensive world, and there are times that 10% seems to be the one thing that keeps the finances from staying in the black.

Lets say you make 100,000 a year (easy math). If you do the current promoted version of Tithing, that means you pay 10,000 per year in tithing. That is $833 a month. But the fact is, after taxes of say $40,000 a year ($3334 a month), your monthly take home (before tithing) is $5000. That means of your take home is reduced by more than 10% (closer to 15%). In some cases, this tithing amount is close to a person's rent payment. Hence if someone is hurting, one starts asking "do I pay rent or do I pay tithing?".

Another interpretation, one I believe used by the RLDS/CC and debated between Joseph Smith and other leaders, focuses on "increase". What is your "increase"? The alternative is that "increase" means your gain, not your income. In other words, after taxes and expenses to live, the gain is what you take 10% of.

So if you make 100,000 a year, and pay $40,000 in Federal/State/and Local, you are left with $60,000 or $5000/month. Then if you take away a car payment of $250, the rent of $2100, basic food of $400, and utilities of $300, you are left with $1950 of "disposable" income, or an "increase". Hence you would take 10% of $1950, or $195 a month. A massive difference from $833.

That also changes your disposable income (or savable income) from $1117 a month to $1755.

But if I understand correctly, the LDS Church currently promotes the first senario, calling all income even before government taxes as Tithing,

What happens though if in all reality your numbers are in the negative? If the only way to pay all your required expenses as well as tithing is to use credit cards (which the Church councils against), what would one really have to do? And is interpetation 1 really the absolute interpretation?

(I have never been a Bishop or in any financial position, so when an investigator asked this, other than talking about Faith, I could not give a direct answer).

So any feedback is appreciated.

JMS

[KevinG]

My Bishop never asked if my tithes were calculated pre or post tax.

The instructions given to priesthood leaders are to teach that we tithe on our increase and it is up to the member to decide what increase means. Tax regulations and burden differ so much from country to country it would be a nightmare to regulate this any closer than to allow the member to decide what is appropriate.

There is a folk saying in church "would you rather get net blessings or gross blessings" but I've never much cared for that saying. I think we obey the Lord as He instructs us and enlightens us individually.

(By the way - I don't always consider tax withdrawl part of my increase, but a car payment or medical expenses is buying me something of tangible use so I personally consider that increase for myself)

Edited June 23, 2011 by DaddyG

[bluebell]

We pay tithing on our net, not our gross. We've also been in the situation where our numbers were in the negative, we paid tithing anyway, and everything always turned out o.k.

I believe that with these kinds of things, it's completely between yourself and the Lord.

Edited June 23, 2011 by bluebell

[mfbukowski]

The question is: "Are you a full tithe payer?"

It is a yes or no question.

It's between you and the Lord.

But I can tell you this- if you have a temple recommend, and drive a fancy car and live in a fancy house, and your annual tithing statement shows your total tithing was $12.85, I think it would be reasonable to expect some kind of conversation with the bishop during tithing settlement.

Otherwise, he has more important things to worry about than what will happen to you in the eternities if you lie on a recommend interview. THAT should be something YOU would be worrying about.

Edited June 23, 2011 by mfbukowski

[LeSellers]

The issue of paying tithing based on net or gross (net less taxes) is that taxes, like any other expense, are just a purchase. Does any Saint honestly believe that we should pay tithing after we've made all of our purchases? If not, and I believe this to be the case, then why is the purtchase of government exempted fromthe equation?

I don't like everything on which government spends the taxes it confiscates from me, but like it or not, I must purchase government at whatever rate it determines I must. (In reality, I like almost nothing of what government does with the taxes it takes, but that is a different discussion.)

Tithing is, as far as I am concerned, a blessing to pay (quite unlike government) because I fully agree with the way the Lord spends His money: for the benefit of the world, and His Church. Besides, the source of my increase is Him, which is the direct opposite of government.

Lehi

[cinepro]

Lets say you make 100,000 a year (easy math). If you do the current promoted version of Tithing, that means you pay 10,000 per year in tithing. That is $833 a month. But the fact is, after taxes of say $40,000 a year ($3334 a month), your monthly take home (before tithing) is $5000. That means of your take home is reduced by more than 10% (closer to 15%). In some cases, this tithing amount is close to a person's rent payment. Hence if someone is hurting, one starts asking "do I pay rent or do I pay tithing?".

So if you make 100,000 a year, and pay $40,000 in Federal/State/and Local, you are left with $60,000 or $5000/month. Then if you take away a car payment of $250, the rent of $2100, basic food of $400, and utilities of $300, you are left with $1950 of "disposable" income, or an "increase". Hence you would take 10% of $1950, or $195 a month. A massive difference from $833.

JMS

Don't forget that tithing is tax-deductable, so the $10,000 you pay would lower your taxable income to $90,000 and thus changes your gross and net calculations.

It's also important to keep in mind that rent, car payments, food and the like are not fixed costs. We have a huge amount of control over each one. Personally, I abhor car payments, so I drive an older car that is paid for. But if my car payment became "tithing deductable", that would increase the benefit for me to borrow money for a new car. Likewise for rent and house payments, and food. With your system, it would be entirely possible for someone to maneuver their "increase" to zero or negative, thus eliminating their tithing altogether.

But your overall point is a good one. I suspect the Church would face a financial disaster of epic proportions if people started shifting from gross to net tithing en masse, so if it started happening we would see a huge shift to a written-in-stone, "thus saith the Lord" edict for gross tithing.

Edited June 23, 2011 by cinepro

[bluebell]

The issue of paying tithing based on net or gross (net less taxes) is that taxes, like any other expense, are just a purchase. Does any Saint honestly believe that we should pay tithing after we've made all of our purchases? If not, and I believe this to be the case, then why is the purtchase of government exempted fromthe equation?

Speaking personally, i don't see taxes as a purchase, which is why i feel completely fine defining 'increase' as my net. I know others disagree, and i'm fine with that as well.

It's great how we each get to make these decisions ourselves, with the Lord, and that we are accountable only to Him and not to each other. I think it's one of the most inspired parts of the tithing process.

[KevinG]

Tithing on my tax burden is academic for me anyway. With 7 children at home I get about 99% of my taxes refunded and tithe on the refund.

Given the relatively low tax rates in the US compared to other countries it is easier to tithe on our gross income. I suspect the discussion would be different in those kingdoms and countries where a much large percentage of income is taxed and withheld.

[bluebell]

Tithing on my tax burden is academic for me anyway. With 7 children at home I get about 99% of my taxes refunded and tithe on the refund.

We get 100% of our taxes back (less social security of course, which i'm not planning on ever seeing again) and we tithe on our refund as well.

[cinepro]

The issue of paying tithing based on net or gross (net less taxes) is that taxes, like any other expense, are just a purchase. Does any Saint honestly believe that we should pay tithing after we've made all of our purchases? If not, and I believe this to be the case, then why is the purtchase of government exempted fromthe equation?

Lehi

That's an interesting way to look at it. If "taxes" are nothing more than the Government sending us the bill for "services rendered", then it shouldn't be viewed any differently than a bill from the dry cleaners when it comes to tithing.

[LeSellers]

Tithing on my tax burden is academic for me anyway. With 7 children at home I get about 99% of my taxes refunded and tithe on the refund.

You are not using your money wisely if you get a refund. Please reduce your withholding so you get a tiny refund, if any at all. There is no logical reason to lend Sam (or any of the sates) money at 0% interest.

Given the relatively low tax rates in the US compared to other countries it is easier to tithe on our gross income. I suspect the discussion would be different in those kingdoms and countries where a much large percentage of income is taxed and withheld.

USmerica does not have low taxes. We pay high taxes, on the whole. Most places have but one taxing authority. In USmerica, we have many. People tend to ignore most of the taxes we pay because they are hidden.

Lehi

Edited June 23, 2011 by LeSellers

[KevinG]

That's an interesting way to look at it. If "taxes" are nothing more than the Government sending us the bill for "services rendered", then it shouldn't be viewed any differently than a bill from the dry cleaners when it comes to tithing.

I plan to tithe on Social Security when I get SS payments. The other taxes which I receive benefit from (increase) now I tithe on currently. That is a personal definition of increase for me (your mileage may vary).

[LeSellers]

That's an interesting way to look at it. If "taxes" are nothing more than the Government sending us the bill for "services rendered", then it shouldn't be viewed any differently than a bill from the dry cleaners when it comes to tithing.

Exactly!!

(Except, of course, that we choose to have our clothing cleaned. We do not choose what we get as government.)

Lehi

Edited June 23, 2011 by LeSellers

[jskains]

So is it better to pay the Tith and ask the Church for assistance or rethink tithing to make it work for your financial situation?

I know I pay more a month for a car, but I have not been able to escape it as my vehicle is violently upside down and I am unable to escape the debt. And previously, I had a car go out that I still owed a lot on that was also out of warrantee that we had to roll into the debt of another car. And that rolling debt had to go to a more valuable car with discounts that could cover the previous cost.

So some of us would love to get out of paying car payments, but have been trapped for 10 years trying to make it all work... Course I could just stink at finances.

JMS

[KevinG]

So is it better to pay the Tith and ask the Church for assistance or rethink tithing to make it work for your financial situation?

Talk to your Bishop. I was buried in medical espenses for my daughter and mine told me he'd rather pay three times in assistance what I gave in tithing if that could keep me temple worthy. Fortunately it never came to that but he was honestly willing to do that for me.

Hopefully the current job search will also help me avoid that situation.

[LeSellers]

So is it better to pay the Tith and ask the Church for assistance or rethink tithing to make it work for your financial situation?

Pay your tithing.

The rest will work out. It may not be as pleasant as you'd wish, but it will work out.

Suze Orman says that if your hands are so tightly gripping your money that you cannot give some back, willingly, then they are not open to receiving the blessings that will come your way. David Bache echos her. So does every credible financial counselor out there. Most agree that 10% is the right amount. It's not just prophets who recognize the truth of "the Lord's Tenth".

Your bishop can help you figure out how to do it, but pay your tithing.

Course I could just stink at finances.

It's not just you. Most people "stink at finances", as you put it. No one teaches it—not your parents, not the schools. I have an MBA. While I did not focus on "Finance", I do understand the subject, and did take courses in it. They do not teach it in college, either.

Debt is a killer, literally. It destroys families (one of the reasons I see it as a tool of Satan), it wrecks your life, and it has been known to press people into suicide (sometimes by drugs, sometimes by active death-seeking).

I do this for a living, folks; I know: If you are serious about getting out of debt, there are tools available to do it, but they can be very dangerous if used poorly. Do your research, make sure you know your credit score. Make a list of all of your assets, and all your debt. Put it on paper, along with your income and expenses.

Then use the banks' tools and the banks' rules against them. Debt will kill you, spiritually, and possibly physically, as well. But there is a way out.

Lehi

[jskains]

Talk to your Bishop. I was buried in medical espenses for my daughter and mine told me he'd rather pay three times in assistance what I gave in tithing if that could keep me temple worthy. Fortunately it never came to that but he was honestly willing to do that for me.

Hopefully the current job search will also help me avoid that situation.

Personally I am doing alright, but this question intriged me when an investigator asked. The entire issue is a hangup for them. Which is hard because they really like the Church.

JMS

[CARPE DIEM]

Personally I am doing alright, but this question intriged me when an investigator asked. The entire issue is a hangup for them. Which is hard because they really like the Church.

JMS

My wife and I don't find it a problem at all. At our church they pass around a basket and people put checks and cash in them. Several of them At least the LDS church has a careful accurate way of keeping track and using the Tithes. I can't count the number of times we have had people steal or mis appropriate the money we give. It's about the Lord and his commandments anyway!

Edited June 23, 2011 by CARPE DIEM

[mfbukowski]

That's an interesting way to look at it. If "taxes" are nothing more than the Government sending us the bill for "services rendered", then it shouldn't be viewed any differently than a bill from the dry cleaners when it comes to tithing.

But suppose you are an entertainer and all those sequined robes cost a fortune to clean- then it becomes a business expense.

Should farmers pay tithing on the money they used to buy seed- realtors for money they spent to advertise, or gangsters for the money they spent on bullets?

There is a reason these decisions need to be left up to the individual.

What was that scripture about "being commanded in all things"?

[mfbukowski]

So is it better to pay the Tith and ask the Church for assistance ...?

I would wager that 99% of bishops would answer in the affirmative

[bluebell]

But suppose you are an entertainer and all those sequined robes cost a fortune to clean- then it becomes a business expense.

Should farmers pay tithing on the money they used to buy seed- realtors for money they spent to advertise, or gangsters for the money they spent on bullets?

There is a reason these decisions need to be left up to the individual.

What was that scripture about "being commanded in all things"?

Having owned a small business in the past, it's only the net profit that matters, since it's quite possible to make a gross profit, while losing money and having no 'increase' at all.

Whether or not something is an 'expense' doesn't always matter when determining what our increase truly is.

[rpn]

First, the promise of tithing is not financial at all --- it is that the windows of heaven will be open. That means that you will receive the knowledge you need to manage the amount you have left, and to make the most of your personal opportunities and maybe to distinguish between needs and wants.

Second, the prophets (I think 1970 might have been their latest statement) have said "increase" means "income". Now we can argue I suppose, about what you get from your taxes (though it hardly seems an argument when on average you'll contribute less than 100K to SS and you will receive something over 500K in SS and Medicare at the current rates if you are an average person, for instance). But that doesn't change the fact that your taxes pay for services you benefit from either directly or in living in a world that is more pleasant because of it).

If you decide to pay after taxes, you can do that. I It is God who will determine whether your offering is tithing. I prefer to err on the side of more rather than less.

[cinepro]

Personally I am doing alright, but this question intriged me when an investigator asked. The entire issue is a hangup for them. Which is hard because they really like the Church.

JMS

Well, tithing as practiced in the 19th century required new converts to "tithe" once they joined by valuing their entire net worth and giving 10% of that. So your investigators are getting off easy.

In August 1844 the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles issued an epistle which required all Mormons to immediately pay “a tenth of all their property and money . . . and then let them continue to pay in a tenth of their income from that time forth.” There was no exemption for Mormons who had already paid one-tenth of their property upon conversion.11 In January 1845 a Quorum of Twelve’s epistle reemphasized “the duty of all saints to tithe themselves one-tenth of all they possess when they enter into the new and everlasting covenant: and then one-tenth of their interest, or income, yearly afterwards.”

[IloveaMormon]

"Otherwise, he has more important things to worry about than what will happen to you in the eternities if you lie on a recommend interview. THAT should be something YOU would be worrying about."

At a Sunday School session last Sunday the woman giving the talk said "I think only 25% of our ward pays full tithe and the other 75% are just partial."

I found this out of line to speak about it in an open meeting if tithe is truly a personal issue. I believe her intent was to shame and warn fellow members to start paying. I go to church hoping I'll hear something positive and joyful and what I hear is 'be fearful. You may not be good enough'.

[ELF1024]

"Otherwise, he has more important things to worry about than what will happen to you in the eternities if you lie on a recommend interview. THAT should be something YOU would be worrying about."

At a Sunday School session last Sunday the woman giving the talk said "I think only 25% of our ward pays full tithe and the other 75% are just partial."

I found this out of line to speak about it in an open meeting if tithe is truly a personal issue. I believe her intent was to shame and warn fellow members to start paying. I go to church hoping I'll hear something positive and joyful and what I hear is 'be fearful. You may not be good enough'.

I would agree that this was tactless and completely out of line.

(comically) I could see my self jumping up in the meeting and yelling "CFR"!!!