LDSToronto Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 Because 'return and report' to those above us is a doctrine of the gospel-one Christ followed Himself.Why do we return and report on tithing with more frequency than other worthiness standards? For instance, why don't I return and report on WoW compliance each year?H.
bluebell Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 There is a difference. In my model, I only have one element of uncertainty: the number of tithe payers.Isn't the amount they pay in tithing also another big uncertainty?I mean, 10 tithe payers who make 1 million a year and 10 that make 100,000 and ten that make 1000 are going to create drastically different amounts of tithing total. However, if you have more than one element of uncertainty, the degree of uncertainty multiplies with each instance. That's why, under the present circumstances, it would be useless to say anything with any degree of certainty about the church's expenses.Wouldn't the uncertainity i mentioned also make it useless to say anything about the amount of tithing the church receives though since it means that there is more than one uncertainity in your model?Maybe i don't understand the process correctly though.
LDSToronto Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 Because 'return and report' to those above us is a doctrine of the gospel-one Christ followed Himself.So, tithing is not just between "you and the Lord", is it?H.
Nathair/|\ Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 Why do we return and report on tithing with more frequency than other worthiness standards? For instance, why don't I return and report on WoW compliance each year?H.Can you report your World of Warcraft Word of Wisdom compliance on your taxes?
bluebell Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 Why do we return and report on tithing with more frequency than other worthiness standards? For instance, why don't I return and report on WoW compliance each year?H.We don't. Not really.Temple recommend interviews and PPI's (which are supposed to happen every six months) are examples of other times we 'return and report'.
bluebell Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 So, tithing is not just between "you and the Lord", is it?H.Yes, it is.You, with the Lord and no one else, decide what being a full tithe payer means and you decide whether or not you are one, knowing that only the Lord knows the truth. That's the very definition of something being 'only between you and the Lord'.Someone else knowing the outcome of your dealins with the Lord, is not the same thing as that person being a part of the process.
LDSToronto Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 We don't. Not really.Temple recommend interviews and PPI's (which are supposed to happen every six months) are examples of other times we 'return and report'.Temple recommend interviews happen every two years. In the temple recommend I'm asked if I am a full tithe payer. PPI's are about my duties as a priesthood holder, and an EQ president or a HPGL does not have authority to ask me about the law of chastity, the word of wisdom, or tithing.No matter how you slice it, a separate interview asking if I am a full tithe payer, and nothing else, means that tithing is not just between me and the Lord. H.
LDSToronto Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 Yes, it is.You, with the Lord and no one else, decide what being a full tithe payer means and you decide whether or not you are one, knowing that only the Lord knows the truth. That's the very definition of something being 'only between you and the Lord'.Someone else knowing the outcome of your dealins with the Lord, is not the same thing as that person being a part of the process.This makes little sense. If tithing is between me and the Lord, I should just get down on my knees and in prayer, tell the Lord my tithing status. Declaring that status to anyone else but the Lord means that tithing is between me, the Lord, and whoever else I decide to tell.It's incorrect to say that anything more than a private declaration to the Lord is "between me and the Lord".Let me put it this way - if, during tithing settlement, I tell the bishop, "Bishop, I have already declared my tithing status to the Lord in a private conversation", is that sufficient?H.
bluebell Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 This makes little sense. If tithing is between me and the Lord, I should just get down on my knees and in prayer, tell the Lord my tithing status. Declaring that status to anyone else but the Lord means that tithing is between me, the Lord, and whoever else I decide to tell.No, it doesn't, not anymore than telling someone you had intimate relations with yoru spouse makes the intimate relations between your spouse, yourself, and the other person.It's incorrect to say that anything more than a private declaration to the Lord is "between me and the Lord".No, it's not. It's valid.Let me put it this way - if, during tithing settlement, I tell the bishop, "Bishop, I have already declared my tithing status to the Lord in a private conversation", is that sufficient?H.Think of it this way-if you don't go to tithing settlement, will anything be done? Will you be denied a temple recommend? Any church discipline at all?If the bishop won't keep you from church blessings because you didn't attend tithing settlement and if no one can make you go, then that's a good way to answer your question.
bluebell Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 (edited) No matter how you slice it, a separate interview asking if I am a full tithe payer, and nothing else, means that tithing is not just between me and the Lord. H.I can tell that you honestly believe that. THAT'S between you and the Lord and, frankly, not something is important enough to argue about. I don't have a horse in this fight since what you believe about it doesn't impact me or mine in any shape or form.I've explained my thoughts on the matter. You've done the same-not much else to be said.EDIT TO ADD-Just wanted to point out that one reason we have a yearly tithing settlement is so the church can make sure no one is embezzeling tithing funds. At tithing settlement, i see a report of what the ward says i've tithed and can match it to what i know i've tithed. Othewise, once the money went into the ward, there wouldn't be many ways to make sure all of it made it to church headquarters and that everything was sorted out and accurate in the reporting of it.I would imagine that if that wasn't necessary, we wouldn't have a yearly tithing settlement at all. Edited June 26, 2011 by bluebell
LDSToronto Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 No, it doesn't, not anymore than telling someone you had intimate relations with yoru spouse makes the intimate relations between your spouse, yourself, and the other person.No, it's not. It's valid.Think of it this way-if you don't go to tithing settlement, will anything be done? Will you be denied a temple recommend? Any church discipline at all?If the bishop won't keep you from church blessings because you didn't attend tithing settlement and if no one can make you go, then that's a good way to answer your question.So, if I am reading correctly, tithing settlement has no purpose. I'm not trying to be offensive here, but that pretty much seems to be the summary.H.
Calm Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 but scripture sales generate revenuePossibly for the more expensive varieties, I doubt for the economy editions.
LDSToronto Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 I can tell that you honestly believe that. THAT'S between you and the Lord and, frankly, not something is important enough to argue about. I don't have a horse in this fight since what you believe about it doesn't impact me or mine in any shape or form.I've explained my thoughts on the matter. You've done the same-not much else to be said.Fair enough. I've been on the 'inside', so to speak, and can tell you that declaration of tithing status is used in the church. For example, when a visiting authority is attending a stake conference, they ask for a list of all priesthood holders in stake callings, along with that priesthood holders declaration of tithing status. H.
Ariarates Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 Isn't the amount they pay in tithing also another big uncertainty? I mean, 10 tithe payers who make 1 million a year and 10 that make 100,000 and ten that make 1000 are going to create drastically different amounts of tithing total. No, it isn't. I used income data per country as reported in the IMF world economic outlook. I also used membership data per country from the Church Alamanac and regional activity rates from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism. That gives you the following formula (calculated on a per country basis):# members * activity rate * income * 10% = maximum tithing revenueThe only uncertainty is how many people donate how many % tithing. That's what the model simulates. Based on conversations with bishops, clerks and stake presidents, I estimate this to be anywhere between 10 and 40%. This range is then randomly applied 20,000 times to all countries which yields about 2.5 billion in tithing revenue.
Ariarates Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 Possibly for the more expensive varieties, I doubt for the economy editions.Indeed. Retail 101.
bluebell Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 So, if I am reading correctly, tithing settlement has no purpose. I'm not trying to be offensive here, but that pretty much seems to be the summary.H.No, i believe it has two vital purposes (one i've already discussed in the 'EDIT TO ADD' part of my last post).The other is that it is our opportunity to declare ourselves before the Lord and His witnesses. We are given the chance to purjur ourselves, or speak honestly, so that, in the end, God's judgements of us will be just.It's like ananais and saphira in the NT. God knew they had lied and didn't give all they said they gave. God didn't need them to declare it to know the truth. If they were going to be dishonest though, and steal from Him, He wanted them to do so outloud, in front of witnesses, so that there would never be any question that His judgements of them were not fair.A man isn't honest, just because he's never had the chance to steal. It is in the moments when are must declare ourselves that our true colors shine forth and where we lose our ability to deny, even to ourselves, our faults and weakness. God has, historically, always commanded His people to announce their allegence to Him and His kingdom aloud and in front of witnesses. I see tithing settlement as one more time that He askes us to do so.
bluebell Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 Possibly for the more expensive varieties, I doubt for the economy editions.Especially when you consider how many scriptures and DVD's the missionaries give out for free each year.
bluebell Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 No, it isn't. I used income data per country as reported in the IMF world economic outlook. I also used membership data per country from the Church Alamanac and regional activity rates from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism. That gives you the following formula (calculated on a per country basis):# members * activity rate * income * 10% = maximum tithing revenueThe only uncertainty is how many people donate how many % tithing. That's what the model simulates. Based on conversations with bishops, clerks and stake presidents, I estimate this to be anywhere between 10 and 40%. This range is then randomly applied 20,000 times to all countries which yields about 2.5 billion in tithing revenue.That still seems to leave a lot of uncertainty.For example, my ward spans some of the wealthiest parts of my county and some of the poorest, yet most of the active people in the ward are from the poorer parts. Using your model though, wouldn't the mere presence of the affluent skew the results to equal more tithing was being paid than it actually was?How does your model account for such discrepencies.
thesometimesaint Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 (edited) Duplicate Edited June 26, 2011 by thesometimesaint
thesometimesaint Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 When Bill Gates walks into a room full of people the average income goes up exponentially.
Ariarates Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 That still seems to leave a lot of uncertainty.Correct, but only about one aspect - how many people pay tithing. This is what the model simulates using a single assumption about how many people pay tithing, Barring transparency on the part of the church, this is as close as you're going to get.For example, my ward spans some of the wealthiest parts of my county and some of the poorest, yet most of the active people in the ward are from the poorer parts. Using your model though, wouldn't the mere presence of the affluent skew the results to equal more tithing was being paid than it actually was?How does your model account for such discrepencies.It doesn't. The model looks at statistical data per country. I did enter Utah separately from the rest of the US, though.By defining a range of tithe payers, the model simply calculates how much tithing a country would generate if 10, 11, 12, 13, ... 40% of the active members donate a full tithe over their per capita household income. Using a range also means that partial tithing payments are taken into account (10% full tithe payers = 20% half0tithe payers, etc.).It's a run of the mill Monte Carlo simulation, nothing spectacular. You can Google how that works. All I'm saying is that a similar model cannot be made about the church's expenses because there are too many unknown variables. It's not that I don't want to because I'm biased, there's just too little information.
mfbukowski Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 What happens if the bishops says gross and the tither says net or some such difference of opinion?Not sure what you mean.The question is "Are you a full tithe payer?"It is a yes or no question. It is up to the tithe payer to define.
mfbukowski Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 The bishop isn't allowed to say 'gross'.Sorry, I am just not getting thisWhat's wrong with the word "gross"?Perhaps if we spoke in full sentences they would have a better chance of making sense.
bluebell Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 (edited) Sorry, I am just not getting thisWhat's wrong with the word "gross"?Perhaps if we spoke in full sentences they would have a better chance of making sense.It was in answer to Yirgacheffe's question of what would happen if the person believed that paying on his net was a true tithe but the bishop wanted him to pay on his gross.I was saying that the bishop would (should) never tell a member such a thing because the bishop only asks someone if they are a full tithe payer, he doesn't add to the definition of what the church has declared a 'full tithe' to be.Hope that makes more sense.(and by the way, my sentence IS a complete sentence. ) Edited June 26, 2011 by bluebell
mfbukowski Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 (edited) augh bad gateway Edited June 26, 2011 by mfbukowski
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