Cold Caffeine Vs Hot Caffeine

[alter idem]

Although I don't consider myself a church critic...at one time I might have been so considered...but with time, I've mellowed...however, I do consider myself a critical thinker of all things Mormon. Yes I question each and every premise that Mormonism is built upon...AND that I do consider different than being a church critic.

So with that understanding:

I began this thread...not as an attack on the WoW...but to help me understand how active believers justify their adherence to it...when there is an inherent conflict built into the word of wisdom...as interpreted by the modern church.

I think you are ignoring the fact that we are a church that believes in modern revelation. We do not expect the church to remain static, but to change over time and we expect 'the brethren', as some like to call them, to counsel, teach and guide us. We don't have a 'conflict' with the fact that the word of wisdom is interepreted differently, because since we rely on a Prophet to lead us, we expect changes.

Coffee is disallowed…but caffeine free coffee is fine. That is the summation of my premise. While there have been some posters who question the veracity of this conundrum…I know for a fact that it exists. I must therefore conclude that it is the caffeine in the coffee that is the problem and not the coffee. Then to further the illogical nature of this WoW enigma, caffeine consumed in cold soda drinks is considered perfectly fine. Thus the original question posed by my never Mormon cousin.

I think your premise is incorrect. I don't think that this explains that caffeine is the reason, it only explains that some people believe it is. I also expect that it will depend on the church leader, if someone feels decaf is okay or not.

The word of wisdom is pretty simple if you ask me: No alcohol, no coffee, no tea and no tobacco. You are asked by your Bishop/Stake pres. if you follow it and they trust you to answer truthfully whether or not you do. If you have a question about a certain substance, it's probably best to abstain.

To me it seems to come down to where the caffeine is consumed and its temperature. While I allow that some posters disagree with me…and while I am open to a more nuanced view of the WoW, this problem still exists. And without some clarification from the COB...it will remain. I won’t hold my breath.

The problem with focusing on caffeine is that it is not even mentioned in the Word of Wisdom--hot or cold.

Frankly, I see no problem.

President Grant, who was the Prophet who made word of wisdom a requirement of temple worthiness and spelled out what that requirement was; no alcohol, no tea, no coffee, no tobacco, made it the responsibility of the person to determine and answer for themselves if they lived it. He was pressured to come out and make a statement against cola--BECAUSE of the caffeine content, and he decided not to. Since the 1930's Prophets have decided not to make changes to the temple question about the word of wisdom, only to offer counsel on avoiding addictive substances.

Some have pointed to Pres. Hinckley's remarks, but he was speaking for himself--clearly he was a member who did not drink caffeinated drinks like sodas--and he stated as such when asked. But, he was not changing the church's position on what the Word of Wisdom question means in a temple recommend interview.

[Jeff K.]

Having been raised in a strict LDS household, caffeine in all of its evil forms was absolutely forbidden. Hot or cold, it didn’t matter. Evil was evil. This strict adherence of avoiding caffeinated beverages made perfect sense to me during my formative years. After all, wasn’t it the caffeine content in the drink that God forbid and not the temperature?

Well something changed in the 70’s and 80’s. Little by little the standard eroded… soon the avoidance of cold caffeinated beverages was no longer frowned upon within the church…consuming cold caffeine became a personal choice. Soon active church members everywhere were seen in public ordering and consuming cold caffeine laden cola drinks.

I consumed my first caffeine beverage, a Dr. Pepper, as an adult in my mid 20’s. This soon morphed into experimenting with other previously forbidden caffeine drinks such as the formerly evil Coke and Pepsi. I eventually settled on my cold caffeine beverage of choice…Diet Pepsi.

Jump ahead 20 years…

I’m on a vacation to visit a never-Mormon cousin back east. While out for dinner he takes note that I ordered a Diet Pepsi. Knowing that I was LDS, this seeming compromise of his perception of LDS standards came as a complete surprise to him. It took him a few days to even get the courage to broach the subject. But finally after watching me drink Diet Pepsi on several other occasions he finally asked me a simple question. “Craig, I’ve noticed that you drink Diet Pepsi…but you’ve refused my repeated offers for some coffee at breakfast… (then he dropped the bomb)…why is it ok for Mormons to consume cold caffeine but not hot caffeine?”

He caught me completely off guard, I didn’t have a good answer for him…and I kind of stumbled in trying to offer him a less than adequate answer…suggesting that I hadn’t really thought about it and that although it used to be outlawed…it is now ok. This answer was unsatisfying to both of us. Rather than being a missionary moment for me…his questions began a spiral into cognitive dissonance for me.

Prior to his question, I had never analyzed the inherent conflict of the LDS position regarding caffeine consumption. If caffeine is the problem…then way isn’t caffeine to be avoided in all of its forms…no matter the temperature? But…on the surface…it appeared that it wasn’t the caffeine but its temperature that presented the problem.

I had simply accepted that the church no longer found evil the consumption of cold caffeine and filled that exception in the Word of Wisdom by drinking Pepsi products when it was no longer prohibited, ignoring the obvious double standard.

My cousin’s question exposed the conflict in the Word of Wisdom that had prior to that very moment totally escaped my conscience.

So can anyone help me understand the inherent conflict apparently created by the cold vs hot caffeine dilemma?

I joined the Church in 1977. Liked Coke then, like it now. Went to the temple then (as a youth) and I go now. It seems to be a household issue of your family's and friends family's making than it is with most Saints. And yes, many Saints choose to make the idea of Coke/Chocolate/whatever a part of their "tradition" (though tradition and doctrine are two different things), I respect their choice, though I disagree with their rationalization.

I would respond that it isn't about caffine. It is about coffee and tea. The why is something taken on faith.

My cousin’s question exposed the conflict in the Word of Wisdom that had prior to that very moment totally escaped my conscience.

There is no conflict or rather the conflict appears to be a false one.

Edited July 1, 2011 by Jeff K.

[Calm]

I grew up in a 'strict', devout LDS household. I well remember that we had generally were allowed to have two kinds of pop in the house, one was rootbeer for parties because that was the family favourite, the other we had would be coke when someone had the stomach flu. We had little pop in the house because of the high sugar content with little nutrition, my mother being a wise woman who made sure her kids got quality food and used the sweets and junk food on rare occasions strictly for fun. But if someone chose to drink coke there was no problem. OTOH, when Mom found out her uncle was drinking decaffeinated coffee, she expressed her surprise and opinion that he was likely making the wrong choice since decaf coffee still fell under the category of coffee. My grandparents were good LDS and had coke in their house as long as I can remember. I hated the taste and wished they'd choose something different.

IIRC my uncle who began to drink decaf coffee did not avoid colas, but I may be wrong in my memory. I have heard of some bishops not allowing decaf coffee and some others leaving it up to the people themselves to decide...much like tithing being net or gross. Since the CHI does not place a qualifier before "coffee" or "tea" and there is nothing about caffeine itself, it seems a rationalization to excuse decaf coffee---which is still coffee by every measure that counts----or tea on the grounds that it lacks something that isn't even identified as the 'culprit'.

It would be interesting to see how many LDS who indulge in decaf coffee completely avoid caffeine in other forms.

Edited July 2, 2011 by calmoriah

[Calm]

And yes, many Saints choose to make the idea of Coke/Chocolate/whatever a part of their "tradition" (though tradition and doctrine are two different things), I respect their choice, though I disagree with their rationalization.

I would respond that it isn't about caffine. It is about coffee and tea. The why is something taken on faith.

If someone expands their choices of food to avoid beyond coffee, tea and alcohol to include things that include caffeine or caffeine like substances, I don't have a problem with them appealing to the WoW but not by making the claim that the Church itself forbids these choices, rather that they are personally committed to living the spirit of the law by avoiding foods that cause addiction or have less benefit than harm on the body and they see caffeine as one of these substances. I would expect to see them also decrease things such as sugar, nitrates and other food additives that have been shown to have long and short term negative effects on the body and cut down on the amount of protein and fat they generally consume as they increased in knowledge.

Simply restricting our WoW behaviour to coffee, tea and alcohol and smoking is about faith and obedience. Expanding it beyond those four can be based on a very rational, science oriented strategy and I think can be a measure of someone's faithfulness in doing all they can to follow not only the law, but the principle behind that law to the best of their ability, but in doing so it should be equated to a personal commitment and not a commandment and it would be wrong to judge others' faithfulness by an identical self-imposed standard.

[Jeff K.]

I was speaking specifically to the caffine issue, so I agree with you in regards to other substantive positions regarding drugs.

[Rivers]

I began this thread...not as an attack on the WoW...but to help me understand how active believers justify their adherence to it...when there is an inherent conflict built into the word of wisdom...as interpreted by the modern church.

IMO, it is a matter of the spirit of the law vs letter of the law. Tea and coffee are against the letter of the law while other forms of caffeine are against the the spirit of the law.

Lazy and unwise servants are the ones that only know how to obey the letter of the law. They are too lazy to use their brains and figure out other ways to keep their body's healthy.

[blackstrap]

My DW cannot follow a positive aspect of the WoW .The WoW states that "wheat is for man " As a woman,this statement does not apply to her(right!).Also ,she is ALLEGIC to wheat.Try that as a sacrifice instead of giving up coffee! I wait with baited breath the commandment to follow the rest of the word of wisdom and begin to deny a recommend to those who eat too much meat,or are too fat or...

I'm reasonably sure that won't happen in my lifetime.I personally think that the world is ahead of us on some health aspects.

On another topic,I consider it less than useful to say someone is LAZY because they only follow the letter of the law.We all have problems to fight and should be given to chance to develope line by line on any gospel doctrine.

[KevinG]

My DW cannot follow a positive aspect of the WoW .The WoW states that "wheat is for man " As a woman,this statement does not apply to her(right!).Also ,she is ALLEGIC to wheat.Try that as a sacrifice instead of giving up coffee! I wait with baited breath the commandment to follow the rest of the word of wisdom and begin to deny a recommend to those who eat too much meat,or are too fat or...

I'm reasonably sure that won't happen in my lifetime.I personally think that the world is ahead of us on some health aspects.

On another topic,I consider it less than useful to say someone is LAZY because they only follow the letter of the law.We all have problems to fight and should be given to chance to develope line by line on any gospel doctrine.

You nailed it with your last statement. It is an unprofitable servant that needs commanded in all things. This includes the WoW, entry into the temple and our own blessings of health. Not all sins keep us from the Temple, the recommend interview just hits the highlights.

[HeatherAnn]

My DW cannot follow a positive aspect of the WoW .The WoW states that "wheat is for man " As a woman,this statement does not apply to her(right!).Also ,she is ALLEGIC to wheat.Try that as a sacrifice instead of giving up coffee! I wait with baited breath the commandment to follow the rest of the word of wisdom and begin to deny a recommend to those who eat too much meat,or are too fat or...

I'm reasonably sure that won't happen in my lifetime.I personally think that the world is ahead of us on some health aspects.

On another topic,I consider it less than useful to say someone is LAZY because they only follow the letter of the law.We all have problems to fight and should be given to chance to develope line by line on any gospel doctrine.

Good points.

The word of wisdom is not the ultimate & exclusive medical advise. It was more of a general guide & Joseph instructed to seek learning & to seek spiritual guidance after studying things out in our minds. This would also apply to health.

Joseph Smith never explained that we shouldn't take lots of prescription pain killers or anti-depressents - so let's have a party!! lol j/k

When some are too strict or judgmental in calling someone "lazy" in following the letter of the law, it may contribute to the search for other means of coping with pressures.

"Antidepressant drugs are prescribed in Utah more often than in any other state, at a rate nearly twice the national average...

"Utah also leads the nation in the use of narcotic painkillers such as > codeine and morphine-based drugs, the study found, and is ranked > seventh in total prescriptions overall."

http://depressedmedication.org/antidepressants/mormons.html

Blackstrap, what you mentioned about other health measures we'd benefit from adopting, reminded me of yoga.

As my brother did at first, you may think I'm silly for mentioning it. Yet, yoga is so good for body, mind & spirit!

[alter idem]

IMO, it is a matter of the spirit of the law vs letter of the law. Tea and coffee are against the letter of the law while other forms of caffeine are against the the spirit of the law.

Lazy and unwise servants are the ones that only know how to obey the letter of the law. They are too lazy to use their brains and figure out other ways to keep their body's healthy.

I'm not sure I'd characterize it this way. I think that we should recognize that the Lord, through his Prophet, has specifically warned us not to use Tobacco, Alcohol, coffee and tea. I would not call a person 'lazy' or 'unwise' if they are judicious about avoiding these substances--I'd call them smart and blessed for their commitment to live in a way that makes them unusual/peculiar in our society.

I think that if a person makes the conscious decision to avoid these substances, they're more likely avoid to other addictive substances like illegal drugs. Caffeine consumption can be addictive, and it takes it's toll on the individual--but not so much on their loved ones--if they have unwittingly become addicted to drinking Pepsi or Coke, they are not in danger of losing their jobs or families--as they are with developing an addiction to Alcohol.

I think that living the word of wisdom--enough to be temple worthy--is likely to help a member take notice of the rest of the counsel found in D&C 89 and try to live it. And if they will do this, I think they will find they are even more receptive to the spirit in their daily lives. The Lord gives blessings as we grow and learn and as we strive to grow in spirituality.

General comments, not directed to Rivers, in response to some of the posts I've read on this thread and IRL:

The word of wisdom is designed to help us live longer, healthier, happier, more spiritually in tune lives on earth. It was not given so that we could use it to pass judgment against others and make ourselves feel superior to those who have more difficulty living it. I'm especially concerned with the attitude toward overweight people. I think we need to be supportive and empathetic towards others and remember that we are nothing without Charity--the pure love of Christ, towards our fellowmen.

Part of the Word of Wisdom is black and white--that's the easy part. There is more to it and if we are wise, we'll not ignore the other counsel. If a person has concerns about whether they are living the word of wisdom, I think it best to read, pray and ponder on Section 89 so that they can find out what the Lord would have them do. So much of it is 'counsel'-not command and so it really is more of an individual thing because each of us is different in our bodies, our lives and families.

[Messenger]

So can anyone help me understand the inherent conflict apparently created by the cold vs hot caffeine dilemma?

I haven’t read all the other posts so somebody may have already answered, or have a better answer than I have. But it was President Heber J. Grant that got specific about not having cola. Later, when the soda manufacturers got a little upset, they visited the church HQ (if my memory is correct from my research) and showed them the statistical data of the amount of caffeine in cola drinks as opposed to coffee. After that, the church did not get specific about not having Cola. So, in my opinion, that’s probably when the whole cold drinks vs hot drinks issue took different paths in some people's minds.

It's important to note that "caffeine is found in many plant species, where it acts as a natural pesticide, with high caffeine levels being observed in seedlings that are still developing foliage, but are lacking mechanical protection; Caffeine paralyzes and kills certain insects feeding upon the plant. High caffeine levels have also been found in the surrounding soil of coffee bean seedlings. Therefore, it is understood that caffeine has a natural function as both a natural pesticide and an inhibitor of seed germination of other nearby coffee seedlings, thus giving it a better chance of survival." Source: Wikipedia

However, today’s so called energy drinks are LOADED with caffeine and cause higher blood pressure. In those that already have high blood pressure, it can cause medical issues including heart attack.

Caffeine is also a stimulant, with all of the other side effects that go along with it. Although, with my ADHD, caffeine is considered an alternative if my regular ADHD medication runs out. However, I must also take high blood pressure medication to keep that in check.

There is also a lot of great talks about it.

Personal Revelation: The Gift, the Test, and the Promise. Boyd K. Packer - October 1994 Sessions. "Your body is the instrument of your mind. In your emotions, the spirit and the body come closest to being one. What you learn spiritually depends, to a degree, on how you treat your body. That is why the Word of Wisdom is so important. The habit-forming substances prohibited by that revelation—tea, coffee, liquor, tobacco—interfere with the delicate feelings of spiritual communication, just as other addictive drugs will do. Do not ignore the Word of Wisdom, for that may cost you the “great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures” promised to those who keep it. And good health is an added blessing."

President Heber J. Grant said, “If you and I desire the blessings of life, of health, of vigor of body and mind; if we desire the destroying angel to pass us by, as he did in the days of the children of Israel, we must obey the Word of Wisdom; then God is bound, and the blessing shall come to us”

[frankenstein]

If "hot drinks" was about caffiene the LDS could not eat chocolate. So its not about caffeine.

[Messenger]

If "hot drinks" was about caffiene the LDS could not eat chocolate. So its not about caffeine.

Frankenstein,

So, you know its not about caffeine? How do you know that? Logic or revelation? Perhaps people dont eat enough chocolate like they drink coffee to be a problem. Or perhaps its more than just about caffeine.

Tell me Frankenstein, do you eat rasins or grapes?

Numbers 6:3

"He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried."

I suppose it might have more than simply caffeine to do with it. But, eating a chocolate bar every morning, day and afternoon to stay awake is probably going to go against the spirit of the word of wisdom as well. It wouldn’t be the first time that the leadership has told us by example what we need to be careful of and then maybe we can figure the rest out on our own. And then there are other times when being obedient simply can bring blessings as well.

I believe the Nazarite people that vowed to obstain from eating grapes were an example of obedience, and example to others.

Edited July 4, 2011 by Messenger

[frankenstein]

Frankenstein,

So, you know its not about caffeine? How do you know that? Logic or revelation? Perhaps people dont eat enough chocolate like they drink coffee to be a problem. Or perhaps its more than just about caffeine.

lest use Craig Paxtons logic, caffienated coffee bad decaf ok. He then states "it must be because of caffiene". So using his logic, if "hot drinks" was about caffeine then the LDS could not eat chocolate either. So using his logic, since LDS can eat chocolate and chocolate contains caffeine then caffeine must not be reason behind, and from what I can find decaf coffee has caffeine in it.

Also IIRC President Monson has made mention of eating chocolate. Secondly I knew a family, the dad is now a SP, but this family would not allow caffienated drinks in their house, but they did allow chocolate of all stripes.

edited for Alter Diem, I am not positive as to President Monson mentioning chocolate.

Edited July 4, 2011 by frankenstein

[scooby]

lest use Craig Paxtons logic, caffienated coffee bad decaf ok. He then states "it must be because of caffiene". So using his logic, if "hot drinks" was about caffeine then the LDS could not eat chocolate either. So using his logic, since LDS can eat chocolate and chocolate contains caffeine then caffeine must not be reason behind

Which is precisely his point: It doesn't make sense.

[alter idem]

Also I believe President Monson has made mention of eating chocolate. Secondly I knew a family, the dad is now a SP, but this family would not allow caffienated drinks in their house, but they did allow chocolate of all stripes.

If Pres. Monson has mentioned eating chocolate, I'd like to know about it. In fact, if ANY General Authority has mentioned chocolate, I'd like to know. Do you have a reference for this, please?

[Messenger]

Circle talk reigns supreme in here!

[Nathair/|\]

If Pres. Monson has mentioned eating chocolate, I'd like to know about it. In fact, if ANY General Authority has mentioned chocolate, I'd like to know. Do you have a reference for this, please?

On the first page of search results for chocolate on LDS.org I found the following from Elder Mark E. Peterson (along with many recipes).

“When interviewing for temple recommends, for instance, or for advancement in the priesthood, or for baptism, or for any other purpose, bishops never inquire as to whether a person drinks cocoa or eats chocolate candy. If the use of cocoa and chocolate were against the doctrine of the Church such inquiry would be made, but it is not.[/quote]

http://lds.org/ensign/1973/04/our-readers-write?lang=eng&query=chocolate

Given the results of the search, I think one can safely say that chocolate is not against Church teachings.

Edited July 4, 2011 by Nathair

[Deborah]

Chocolate is the "Nectar of the Gods". Chocolate is also called "black gold."

[Calm]

Chocolate has at best a very small amount of caffeine (some studies say it doesn't contain any at all), it does contains a caffeine like substance, theobromine, in larger, significant amounts that might have an effect on someone sensitive to caffeine. I do know that many sufferers of rls have problems with chocolate aggravating their symptoms (and alas I recently became one of those), though what the specific chemical or combination of chemicals is the cause is unknown. I think it is more likely the sugar in chocolate that is going to cause problems for most people than than the caffeine or even the theobromine.

If someone is concerned about chocolate because of the potential amount of caffeine in it (perhaps equivalent to the amount of caffeine in decaf coffee) because they are assuming that it is the caffeine in coffee that the WoW is telling us to avoid, then to be consistent they should avoid vanilla and other flavourings that contain alcohol. At some point with naturally occurring substances that are contained in many items, one has to accept that a small percentage is okay, otherwise one would have to avoid anything that ferments and therefore has traces of alcohol. Nicotine is used as a natural or organic pesticide, if one focused on nicotine specifically instead of tobacco and insisted on avoiding all possible sources of it, then they might see it as necessary to avoid organic foods.

The Word of Wisdom is about teaching wisdom or prudence, not about encouraging obsessions.

Edited July 4, 2011 by calmoriah

[alter idem]

Thanks, Nathair for the Mark E. Peterson post. Frankenstein had me worried there for a minute because I love Chocolate, the darker the better. I bet I'm more of a dark chocolate fiend than Deborah, even!

Frankenstein, if you do find the reference you were thinking of...on second thought, keep it to yourself!

[shalamabobbi]

Thanks, Nathair for the Mark E. Peterson post. Frankenstein had me worried there for a minute because I love Chocolate, the darker the better. I bet I'm more of a dark chocolate fiend than Deborah, even!

Frankenstein, if you do find the reference you were thinking of...on second thought, keep it to yourself!

Chocolate or rather raw cacao is one of the best health foods out there. It contains the highest concentration of antioxidants of any food in the world.

Processing chocolate turns the healthful omega-6 fatty acids into harmful trans fats however.

[Nathair/|\]

Chocolate is the "Nectar of the Gods". Chocolate is also called "black gold."

Beautiful article. It seems I've heard the name Michael Coe before.

[Stargazer]

LOL...Now I'm a Mormon Pharisee? LOL Excuse me but other than the cold vs hot caffeine conundrum...the Word of Wisdom is pretty black and white...just try getting a recommend by not crossing your "T" or dotting your "i". If I'm a Pharisee because I can't see the nauance (other than the hot vs cold caffeine conumdrum) then so be it. But honestly I try not to judge other people I don't know anything about...that would make me a Pharisee...

NO NO! I didn't say you are a Mormon Pharisee, I said you were raised as one! Big difference! If I were to tell you that I was raised as Vaguely Agnostic, this doesn't mean that I AM one. I have gone beyond it.

I've run into many others raised as Mormon Pharisees, and some still behave like it, while others have gone beyond it. I understand that you have gone beyond your Mormon Phariseeism, and that's just fine. Fine the other way around, too, because diversity makes the world go round, or something like that (someone else has said that the longer it goes round, diverse it gets!)

I should have come back to the topic earlier, sorry about that. I hope you haven't been suffering from the pain and discomfort of thinking I was calling you something you weren't.

[frankenstein]

chocolate caffiene content according to Hersey's