Cold Caffeine Vs Hot Caffeine

[Craig Paxton]

Having been raised in a strict LDS household, caffeine in all of its evil forms was absolutely forbidden. Hot or cold, it didn’t matter. Evil was evil. This strict adherence of avoiding caffeinated beverages made perfect sense to me during my formative years. After all, wasn’t it the caffeine content in the drink that God forbid and not the temperature?

Well something changed in the 70’s and 80’s. Little by little the standard eroded… soon the avoidance of cold caffeinated beverages was no longer frowned upon within the church…consuming cold caffeine became a personal choice. Soon active church members everywhere were seen in public ordering and consuming cold caffeine laden cola drinks.

I consumed my first caffeine beverage, a Dr. Pepper, as an adult in my mid 20’s. This soon morphed into experimenting with other previously forbidden caffeine drinks such as the formerly evil Coke and Pepsi. I eventually settled on my cold caffeine beverage of choice…Diet Pepsi.

Jump ahead 20 years…

I’m on a vacation to visit a never-Mormon cousin back east. While out for dinner he takes note that I ordered a Diet Pepsi. Knowing that I was LDS, this seeming compromise of his perception of LDS standards came as a complete surprise to him. It took him a few days to even get the courage to broach the subject. But finally after watching me drink Diet Pepsi on several other occasions he finally asked me a simple question. “Craig, I’ve noticed that you drink Diet Pepsi…but you’ve refused my repeated offers for some coffee at breakfast… (then he dropped the bomb)…why is it ok for Mormons to consume cold caffeine but not hot caffeine?”

He caught me completely off guard, I didn’t have a good answer for him…and I kind of stumbled in trying to offer him a less than adequate answer…suggesting that I hadn’t really thought about it and that although it used to be outlawed…it is now ok. This answer was unsatisfying to both of us. Rather than being a missionary moment for me…his questions began a spiral into cognitive dissonance for me.

Prior to his question, I had never analyzed the inherent conflict of the LDS position regarding caffeine consumption. If caffeine is the problem…then way isn’t caffeine to be avoided in all of its forms…no matter the temperature? But…on the surface…it appeared that it wasn’t the caffeine but its temperature that presented the problem.

I had simply accepted that the church no longer found evil the consumption of cold caffeine and filled that exception in the Word of Wisdom by drinking Pepsi products when it was no longer prohibited, ignoring the obvious double standard.

My cousin’s question exposed the conflict in the Word of Wisdom that had prior to that very moment totally escaped my conscience.

So can anyone help me understand the inherent conflict apparently created by the cold vs hot caffeine dilemma?

Edited June 22, 2011 by Craig Paxton

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Having been raised in a strict LDS household, caffeine in all of its evil forms was absolutely forbidden.

Why that is not in the WOW. Drinking caffeine is not the issue it is Coffee and Tea, that is the issue.

The Lord has forbidden the LDS from drinking it. The question is "Are you going to follow the Lord's commands"?

BTW I remember drinking a Dr Pepper back in '84 and no one any were ever questioned me about it. The only time I was told to avoid caffeinated beverages was on my mission. I did not listen to that very well. I served an honorable mission. I have never once been asked in a temple recommend interview if I avoid caffeine.

I see people making an issue out of a non issue.

Let me put it this way. Let say that tea is shown to have no adverse effects and is completely healthy to consume. Do you know why I won't be drinking it? Because the Lord has commanded us not to. Getting into the debates of how unhealthy coffee and tea is is futile. I should have learned this lesson long ago.

[KevinG]

Read the word of wisdom then honestly and prayerfullyfind out how it applies to you.

It is a much broader law than avoiding certain substances (of which caffiene is not mentioned but could be implied).

My wife drinks coke. I avoided caffienated beverages for a long time. At one point at work I started drinking Dr. Pepper to keep from flagging after lunch. I rationalized it wasn't a big deal even though I hadn't felt it was right for me. (re-read that last statement). Soon after I went from rare use to regular use I started getting heart trouble. It turns out I have greater than average sensitivity to stimulants including caffiene.

The bottom line for me. If the Lord tells me it is not for me I will be blessed for my obedience.

I cannot however tell others how to interpret the word of wisdom for themselves. For some it may be avoiding large amounts of sugar, saturated fats or other potentially harmful substances. For others it may be avoiding stimulants.

The universal do's and don'ts have been pretty well discussed and defined over the years (coffee, tea, alcohol, tobacco, illegal drugs...) and the pattern I see there is avoiding addictive and harmful substances.

[3DOP]

Having been raised in a strict LDS household, caffeine in all of its evil forms was absolutely forbidden. Hot or cold, it didn’t matter. Evil was evil. This strict adherence of avoiding caffeinated beverages made perfect sense to me during my formative years. After all, wasn’t it the caffeine content in the drink that God forbid and not the temperature?

Well something changed in the 70’s and 80’s. Little by little the standard eroded… soon the avoidance of cold caffeinated beverages was no longer frowned upon within the church…consuming cold caffeine became a personal choice. Soon active church members everywhere were seen in public ordering and consuming cold caffeine laden cola drinks.

I consumed my first caffeine beverage, a Dr. Pepper, as an adult in my mid 20’s. This soon morphed into experimenting with other previously forbidden caffeine drinks such as the formerly evil Coke and Pepsi. I eventually settled on my cold caffeine beverage of choice…Diet Pepsi.

Jump ahead 20 years…

I’m on a vacation to visit a never-Mormon cousin back east. While out for dinner he takes note that I ordered a Diet Pepsi. Knowing that I was LDS, this seeming compromise of his perception of LDS standards came as a complete surprise to him. It took him a few days to even get the courage to broach the subject. But finally after watching me drink Diet Pepsi on several other occasions he finally asked me a simple question. “Craig, I’ve noticed that you drink Diet Pepsi…but you’ve refused my repeated offers for some coffee at breakfast… (then he dropped the bomb)…why is it ok for Mormons to consume cold caffeine but not hot caffeine?”

He caught me completely off guard, I didn’t have a good answer for him…and I kind of stumbled in trying to offer him a less than adequate answer…suggesting that I hadn’t really thought about it and that although it used to be outlawed…it is now ok. This answer was unsatisfying to both of us. Rather than being a missionary moment for me…his questions began a spiral into cognitive dissonance for me.

Prior to his question, I had never analyzed the inherent conflict of the LDS position regarding caffeine consumption. If caffeine is the problem…then way isn’t caffeine to be avoided in all of its forms…no matter the temperature? But…on the surface…it appeared that it wasn’t the caffeine but its temperature that presented the problem.

I had simply accepted that the church no longer found evil the consumption of cold caffeine and filled that exception in the Word of Wisdom by drinking Pepsi products when it was no longer prohibited, ignoring the obvious double standard.

My cousin’s question exposed the conflict in the Word of Wisdom that had prior to that very moment totally escaped my conscience.

So can anyone help me understand the inherent conflict apparently created by the cold vs hot caffeine dilemma?

Are all the things from which Mormons are admonished to abstain only evil? Is it possible that hot coffee need not be considered to be evil, but a sacrifice of a good that you are willing to make for God?

[bluebell]

Caffeine isn't the reason that we don't drink coffee or tea. If i remember correctly, David O McKay loved Coke.

[bookofmormontruth]

I am sorry you struggle with the Word of Wisdom, but you definitely should write books or make movies for your exaggerations of your personal experiences are rampant.

Doctrine and Covenants 89: answers your question on the whys and those who are directed by the Spirit receive a personal witness and understand.

Why aren't you concerned about the following in coffee and tea?

tannins - slows absorption of minerals and increases risk of nasal and esophageal cancer

tannic acid - can cause cancer in animals

sodium phosphate – it is used to treat constipation and to clean the bowel before surgery, x-rays, endoscopy, or other intestinal procedures. Sodium biphosphate and sodium phosphate enemas are also used for general care after surgery and to help relieve impacted bowels.

sodium polyphosphate – adds texture and used as an emulsifier to prevent ingredients from clumping together.

sodium stearoyl lactylate – a solid powder irritating to eyes and skin, and hazardous in case of inhalation.

tetra sodium pyrophosphate – when ingested it can cause nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea.

sodium hexametaphosphate – the Material Safety Data Sheet warns “do not ingest.” Synonym of Sodium Polyphosphate (above).

sodium citrate – includes diarrhea as an adverse reaction. It should also be “used with caution in patients with cardiac failure, hypertension, impaired renal function, peripheral and pulmonary edema, and toxemia of pregnancy.

These are more harmful than caffeine and therefore makes your "inherent conflict" obsolete.

[krose]

Looking at some of the health theories floating around at the time Section 89 was conceived (temperance movement, etc.), I am convinced that the term "hot drinks" means exactly what it says it does. It's entirely about the temperature of the beverage.

Many people at the time believed that ingesting high-temperature drinks upset the balance of the body's 'humors.' Coffee and tea were mentioned as the hot drinks that people consumed. The fact that they both contain caffeine is purely coincidental, but it was a logical conclusion for members to make. I know everyone I grew up around assumed it, and we meticulously avoided caffeinated drinks of any temperature.

[krose]

Why aren't you concerned about the following in coffee and tea?

These are more harmful than caffeine and therefore makes your "inherent conflict" obsolete.

Are you saying all of these are in both coffee and tea? How about the ingredients in soft drinks?

FWIW, green tea has so many more positive effects than negative, it isn't even a contest.

[bookofmormontruth]

Are you saying all of these are in both coffee and tea? How about the ingredients in soft drinks?

FWIW, green tea has so many more positive effects than negative, it isn't even a contest.

Soft drinks are just as horrible.

There is no such thing as a "green tea deficiency". Green/black tea comes from the same plant Camellia sinensis and you forget that the Word of Wisdom is a spiritual commandment. Despite the positive polyphenol content it is quite possible that this plant "dampens/suppresses" the spirit. IMO of course, but look at the countries who consume this plant in abundance - G-d is far from their minds.

Here is a brilliant idea. How about we listen and follow what G-d has commanded? After-all He created the stuff.

[bookofmormontruth]

Looking at some of the health theories floating around at the time Section 89 was conceived (temperance movement, etc.), I am convinced that the term "hot drinks" means exactly what it says it does. It's entirely about the temperature of the beverage.

Many people at the time believed that ingesting high-temperature drinks upset the balance of the body's 'humors.' Coffee and tea were mentioned as the hot drinks that people consumed. The fact that they both contain caffeine is purely coincidental, but it was a logical conclusion for members to make. I know everyone I grew up around assumed it, and we meticulously avoided caffeinated drinks of any temperature.

And how do you explain the "anti-tobacco movement" at that time? Or the "moderation of meat" at that time? Or the "refraining of cancer causing agents" in teas? Or the "eat a well balanced diet of fruits, vegetables and grains" recommendations from the government?

Oh wait, there were none. So much for the "health theory" of yours to explain away how Divine the Word of Wisdom truly was at that time and how science had to catch up a hundred + years later.

[jcake]

A cousin of mine passed away from cancer of the esouphagus (sp) a few years ago. One thing we learned as he went through this terrible ordeal, was that studies have shown that those who have this type of cancer have a history of consuming hot drinks, (not necessarily coffee or tea) at a rate that is higher than the average consumption of hot drinks by people who do not have the cancer. Maybe the WOW means just what it says, coffee and tea aren't mentioned, but hot drinks are.

[Traela]

When my DH served in Argentina, he was allowed to drink mate and guarana, both of which caffiene.

[zelder]

Your parents were maybe just a wee bit like the pharisees who created rules to surround the rules and then made up more rules. That being said, I think sodas are really bad for the body but I don't need God to tell me, I'm glad I have the freedom to do what I know is right. Avoiding hot drinks was a good starting point and probably protected countless saints from some really bad cultural habits at a time when people honestly didn't know better.

[TAO]

Ok, here's the thing. Caffeine is not specifically advised against in the WoW.

I remember a thread a while back about President Monson having a Coke. Ultimately - no, caffiene is not necessarily required.

But I think, that perhaps, abstaining from caffeine, the Lord will bless you. There have been prophets which have told us to avoid caffeine. I'm pretty sure the Lord has some sort of blessing in store for those who do.

Btw.... Actually... as a runner... I avoid soda altogether... but that's another story.... so far though... the only caffeinated thing I have is chocolate. But yah.

So ask the Lord what he wants you to do, as DaddyG said, cuz it's very awesomely epic advice =).

Eh, I could be wrong though.

Best Wishes,

TAO

[Jigglysaint]

Just want to mention that partaking in any substance that has been formally outlawed will automatically result in dampening the Spirit. That's just the way forbidden objects work.

Now I am a drinker of energy drinks. I am very careful about how much I drink and at what point in they day I drink it. Now maybe I don't really need them, and I am just trying to justify a caffeine addiction, but those drinks also contain other stuff like ginseng which helps the immune system. I don't get sick very often, and I rarely suffer from sleep disorders(if I do it's because of other reasons...or the odd time I drink an extra potent beverage).

[Bernard Gui]

So, who here drinks mild drinks made from rye, barley, and other grains?

(Stepping back to see the raise of hands)

In my mission, the only safe thing to drink was Coke or Pepsi.

Bernard

[scooby]

The plain truth is that the Word of Wisdom, as outlined by Church leaders, doesn't make sense: decaffeinated coffee is not forbidden, and yet caffeinated sodas are not forbidden either. So the combination of caffeine and coffee is forbidden, but neither by itself. What if I sat down at my meal with two drinks: a decaf coffee and a coke?

When Church leaders decided to turn the Word of Wisdom into a series of hard and set rules, I think they probably just flubbed on the details a bit. I don't hold it against them. I'm content with the borders of my property shifting every so often or being murky if I don't live too close to them. It's when I smell the coffee that I'd most like to take the line-makers to task. (*pointing at the ground* "now wait a second, the line curves there, and zig-zags there. if you kept with that zag there and lost this zig here then i could have that damn coffee" *grabs him by the lapels* "what were you thinking?")

Edited June 23, 2011 by scooby

[bluebell]

The plain truth is that the Word of Wisdom, as outlined by Church leaders, doesn't make sense: decaffeinated coffee is not forbidden,

Where does this idea come from? I've never heard it before, except from those confused people who honestly think that caffeine is the reason we aren't supposed to drink coffee.

I'm not aware of the church leaders outlining anything where decaffeinated coffee is allowed though.

[Jaybear]

Where does this idea come from? I've never heard it before, except from those confused people who honestly think that caffeine is the reason we aren't supposed to drink coffee.

I'm not aware of the church leaders outlining anything where decaffeinated coffee is allowed though.

If the ban is not about caffeine, why can't I get a Coke at BYU football game?

[bluebell]

If the ban is not about caffeine, why can't I get a Coke at BYU football game?

I have no idea, why don't you ask them?

BYU isn't really a good way to determine church doctrine though. The honor code is much more strict than church standards, for example.

Edited June 23, 2011 by bluebell

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

If the ban is not about caffeine, why can't I get a Coke at BYU football game?

This one is simple, because they choose to not offer it. Oh!!!

[scooby]

Where does this idea come from? I've never heard it before, except from those confused people who honestly think that caffeine is the reason we aren't supposed to drink coffee.

I'm not aware of the church leaders outlining anything where decaffeinated coffee is allowed though.

As far as I know David O McKay (in a letter) and John Widtsoe (who did, though, think that refined flour was against the WoW).

[bluebell]

As far as I know David O McKay (in a letter) and John Widtsoe (who did, though, think that refined flour was against the WoW).

Do you have a source for that? It would be interesting to see it.

[scooby]

Do you have a source for that? It would be interesting to see it.

Here's a relevant footnote in an article by Michael Ash:

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2000_Up_in_Smoke.html#en135 (footnote 135)

Edited June 23, 2011 by scooby

[Doug the Hutt]

Having been raised in a strict LDS household, caffeine in all of its evil forms was absolutely forbidden. Hot or cold, it didn’t matter. Evil was evil. This strict adherence of avoiding caffeinated beverages made perfect sense to me during my formative years. After all, wasn’t it the caffeine content in the drink that God forbid and not the temperature?

Well something changed in the 70’s and 80’s. Little by little the standard eroded… soon the avoidance of cold caffeinated beverages was no longer frowned upon within the church…consuming cold caffeine became a personal choice. Soon active church members everywhere were seen in public ordering and consuming cold caffeine laden cola drinks.

I consumed my first caffeine beverage, a Dr. Pepper, as an adult in my mid 20’s. This soon morphed into experimenting with other previously forbidden caffeine drinks such as the formerly evil Coke and Pepsi. I eventually settled on my cold caffeine beverage of choice…Diet Pepsi.

Jump ahead 20 years…

I’m on a vacation to visit a never-Mormon cousin back east. While out for dinner he takes note that I ordered a Diet Pepsi. Knowing that I was LDS, this seeming compromise of his perception of LDS standards came as a complete surprise to him. It took him a few days to even get the courage to broach the subject. But finally after watching me drink Diet Pepsi on several other occasions he finally asked me a simple question. “Craig, I’ve noticed that you drink Diet Pepsi…but you’ve refused my repeated offers for some coffee at breakfast… (then he dropped the bomb)…why is it ok for Mormons to consume cold caffeine but not hot caffeine?”

He caught me completely off guard, I didn’t have a good answer for him…and I kind of stumbled in trying to offer him a less than adequate answer…suggesting that I hadn’t really thought about it and that although it used to be outlawed…it is now ok. This answer was unsatisfying to both of us. Rather than being a missionary moment for me…his questions began a spiral into cognitive dissonance for me.

Prior to his question, I had never analyzed the inherent conflict of the LDS position regarding caffeine consumption. If caffeine is the problem…then way isn’t caffeine to be avoided in all of its forms…no matter the temperature? But…on the surface…it appeared that it wasn’t the caffeine but its temperature that presented the problem.

I had simply accepted that the church no longer found evil the consumption of cold caffeine and filled that exception in the Word of Wisdom by drinking Pepsi products when it was no longer prohibited, ignoring the obvious double standard.

My cousin’s question exposed the conflict in the Word of Wisdom that had prior to that very moment totally escaped my conscience.

So can anyone help me understand the inherent conflict apparently created by the cold vs hot caffeine dilemma?

I'm a gemni, so I'll let my minds have their say:

True-Believer:

There's all kinds of research done by the Church that proves that an LDS person who obeys the Word of Wisdom lives longer. God doesn't tell you everything -- he makes us figure it out for ourselves. And our leaders have helped us with that by telling us to not drink alcohol, coffee, tea or use illicit drugs. The latter is just common sense. And there isn't necessarily a health benefit for the coffee or tea, but rather for us to prove that we will be obedient in everything, regardless of the commandment. A person who shows obedience to the Lord's commandments certainly grows closer to God and will be blessed. "Hot" doesn't really just mean hot -- it means coffee and tea. And hot chocolate isn't considered hot -- it's just yummy and ok. And that part about eating meat sparingly was before refrigeration and before the enormous modern cattle, turkey, chicken and other-meat industries. And if you pay your tithing you'll be blessed.

Totally Faithless Skeptic:

The simplest way to address the WoW is to accept that it's not really revelation from God, just the wisdom of 19th century men masquerading as a commandment and massaged by LDS authorities into people believing it's from God. The Prophet and his inner circle borrowed ideas from their environment (I understand there were 6,000 temperance movements in Ohio proscribing similar things when Section 89 was revealed) and wrapped it up as scripture. If it were from God it would state clearly the things which could and could not be consumed, its precedent set in the Old Testament. You'd think God would have better communication skills and not leave people wondering if it's temperature, spice or alkaloid content. If it were from God it wouldn't begin with it not being a commandment but then turned into one of the most basic commandments of Mormonism today. It's presently an outward sign of being obedient LDS, where you cannot get a Temple Recommend without complying, cannot hold leadership positions like Prophet, Stake President, Bishop, Elders Quorum President, etc. without obeying, and sometimes even a focal point for gossip about family and neighbors. If it were from God we wouldn't be left wondering what the barley-based-mild-beverage was on the Post'em-less frontier if it wasn't beer, and then wonder why we can't drink beer now. If it were from God you'd think he would put more into it.

If I were to write a WoW today I'd include things like:

"Wash your hands after going to the bathroom, before eating anything and before operating on someone else's body".

"Don't get intoxicated and operate automobiles, heavy machinery, aircraft, large oil tankers named 'the Exxon Valdez', etc."

"Brush your teeth every day with your own toothbrush and bathe regularly."

"Don't sleep around or you'll get an STD".

"Exercise and don't overeat to stay fit."

"Eat a well-balanced diet.(moderation in all things)".

"Don't smoke or use tobacco even for the bellyaches of cattle."

"Boil your water before drinking it"

"Cook your food properly before consuming it." Etc.

I'm sure I can think up a whole bunch of other words of wisdom but that should suffice. The WoW as revealed in the D&C betrays the pre-germ-theory-of-disease-wisdom-of-19th-century-men-trying-to-live-pious-lives-in-temperance-movement-land-origin and is not from God himself. Unless it is and he's just like us -- learning this stuff as he goes along, always progressing in knowledge of mundane things.

Apologist Who Allows Way Too Much But Will Not Be Disproved:

It's possible that Section 89 was the catalyst that got more modern prophets to receive real revelation from God on such matters. The Prophet really thought he was getting revelation from God. Hey, even prophets make mistakes. Who are you to judge? God, in his infinite wisdom, allowed The Prophet to place the seed of being health-conscious in the scriptures. When more modern prophets started looking at Section 89 they had the true will of God revealed to them, and made the Word of Wisdom that we have today which makes those unclear things clear -- the method was similar to how Joseph looked at the scrolls of Hor and had the totally-unrelated Book of Abraham revealed to his mind. We should be grateful for having living oracles and will be blessed by following them.

So, then Mr. Cr@ig P@xton, take your pick.