zerinus Posted June 28, 2011 Posted June 28, 2011 (edited) Interesting perspective...Yet if it is coffee and tea that are the issue and not the caffeine...why can an individual drink de-caffeinated coffee and still get a temple recommend...IF as you claim it is the coffee?Seems to me that it is after all the caffeine...and it appear to be the temperature of that caffeine that is in question.Interesting however how you have nuanced the WoW to fit your particular perspective...In a temple recommend interview, the bishop doesn't ask the candidate if he/she is drinking caf or decaf. He asks, "Do you keep the word of wisdom?" It is up to the candidate to decide if he/she is or not; and the bishop will accept their word and act accordingly. It is like tithing. The bishop doesn't ask for your payslips and account details to determine if you are paying a full tithe or not. You decide whether you are or not, and answer accordingly. It would be possible to obtain a temple recommend by being dishonest; but why should anyone want to?I believe that the Word of Wisdom is genuine revelation from God, and everything that is said in there is true; but it doesn't go into details. It gives general guidelines, and it leaves room for interpretation. The Church also provides minimal guidelines. It interprets "hot drinks" to mean tea and coffee, and by extension other addictive or harmful drugs and substances. But it doesn't go into detail about caf or decaf etc. That is left to your discretion.I have never drank decaf because I hate the taste of it. I also think it breaches the Word of Wisdom. But if other people are okay with it then I suppose they have that option. I used to drink Coke and Pepsi quite a lot; but then I discovered that it wasn't doing me any good, so I stopped. I still drink it very occasionally, but not often any more. I think that strictly it is not in keeping with the Word of Wisdom. But then that is a personal choice. Others may have a different opinion, which is okay too. Edited June 28, 2011 by zerinus
Storm Rider Posted June 28, 2011 Posted June 28, 2011 And nowhere in the words "hot drinks" does it address something such as iced tea (or even better, green tea ice cream, which is neither hot nor a drink). It is perfectly reasonable and logical to look for something that two banned substances have in common, and then guess that the reason for their prohibition must be their common active ingredient. I'm going to go ahead and take a bit of offense on behalf of my faithful relatives, as well as my former faithful self, at being called "pharisaical" for taking the very reasonable approach of avoiding all caffeine based on this logical assumption. We applied the same logic in avoiding all alcohol, which is also not specified (it says "wine" and "strong drink" specifically, not "alcohol").The problem is that you made an "assumption" rather than just accept it for what it was. The prophet clarified that what hot or strong drink was after the revelation. In addition, it was simply a word of Wisdom and not a commandment; the requirement for entering the temple did not occur until the beginning of 1900s. Your being faithful is not questioned. Your creating a doctrine to which you seek to obey is neither being faithful or being righteous. This is how foolish traditions are started and perpetuated. Is the act of avoiding caffeine good...yes, probably, but it has nothing to do with LDS doctrine or beliefs. It is a cultural thing and nothing more.
Craig Paxton Posted June 28, 2011 Author Posted June 28, 2011 (edited) I guess my problem is that I'm just old enough to remember when living the word of wisdom actually had a consistent logical standard that made sense.With time...that consistent standard has eroded...I grew up in an era when coffee was bad for one’s health...now it prevents cancer and is actually good for you...I grew up in an era when wine was bad...now with moderation, it’s good for one’s health.I grew up in an era when caffeine was the evil ingredient and should be avoided like alcohol…now it’s perfectly acceptable at least when not consumed in coffee.I grew up in an era when Jesus drank grape juice not alcoholic wine (yeah they actually used to teach that to members)And I grew up in an era when the church taught that Joseph Smith actually lived the Word of Wisdom, he supposedly received from God and even edited out all references to his tobacco and alcohol use in official church history to support that premise.So now the WoW is more nuanced and perhaps even more personal in its interpretation. It’s not about caffeine…it’s about not drinking coffee but really not even about not drinking coffee because decaffeinated coffee is ok…so It’s really not even about coffee...it’s about not drinking caffeinated coffee…and it’s not even a question of health….since coffee and wine are healthy…and since we’ve already determined that it’s not about the caffeine…since cold caffeine is ok... It must come down to sacrifice and obedience for illogical demands that often conflict.In the end it really makes no sense other than to say that it’s become a standard to mark allegiance to Mormonism and separate members from the rest of the world…in the end, that is what the Word of Wisdom really is…it’s the only way it even makes any sense. Edited June 28, 2011 by Craig Paxton
Nofear Posted June 28, 2011 Posted June 28, 2011 In the end it really makes no sense other than to say that it’s become a standard to mark allegiance to Mormonism and separate members from the rest of the world…in the end, that is what the Word of Wisdom really is…it’s the only way it even makes any sense.I've seen members poke fun at the Jews under the Mosaic law because of certain distinctive behaviors that they practiced to help them remember God and set them apart from their neighbors. Apparently these individuals lacked the introspection to recognize the outward pious habits we Mormons regularly practice and the good they bring.
Craig Paxton Posted June 28, 2011 Author Posted June 28, 2011 (edited) I've seen members poke fun at the Jews under the Mosaic law because of certain distinctive behaviors that they practiced to help them remember God and set them apart from their neighbors. Apparently these individuals lacked the introspection to recognize the outward pious habits we Mormons regularly practice and the good they bring.That's an excellent comparison...many Jewish food laws make no sense except to the Jews...who once viewed them as a health standard but now must see them as a means to separate themselves from the world (although many are still about healthy food preparation standards)....and in this way the Word of Wisdom makes perfect sense...it isn't about health...it’s about separation, distinctiveness obedience for the sake of obedience and sacrifice for the sake of sacrifice. Edited June 28, 2011 by Craig Paxton
Nofear Posted June 28, 2011 Posted June 28, 2011 That's an excellent comparison...many Jewish food laws make no sense except to the Jews...who once viewed them as a health standard but now must see them as a means to separate themselves from the world (although many are still about healthy food preparation standards)....and in this way the Word of Wisdom makes perfect sense...it isn't about health...it’s about separation, distinctiveness obedience for the sake of obedience and sacrifice for the sake of sacrifice.Well, the "spirit of the law" is certainly, in part, about health.
Rivers Posted June 28, 2011 Posted June 28, 2011 I was taught in church that tannic acid, not caffeine, is what makes coffee and tea harmful.
Rivers Posted June 28, 2011 Posted June 28, 2011 I guess my problem is that I'm just old enough to remember when living the word of wisdom actually had a consistent logical standard that made sense.With time...that consistent standard has eroded...I grew up in an era when coffee was bad for one’s health...now it prevents cancer and is actually good for you...I grew up in an era when wine was bad...now with moderation, it’s good for one’s health.The word of wisdom is for the weakest of the saints. The weakest of the saints probably includes people with addictive personalities. Sure wine and coffee can be healthy in moderation, but many people have problems becoming hooked on these things.
thesometimesaint Posted June 28, 2011 Posted June 28, 2011 Rivers:I can not address what you were taught by anyone else. But Tannins including Tannic Acid are present in apple juice along with most other fruit juices. Chock it up to Gospel Rumor.
Rivers Posted June 28, 2011 Posted June 28, 2011 Rivers:I can not address what you were taught by anyone else. But Tannins including Tannic Acid are present in apple juice along with most other fruit juices. Chock it up to Gospel Rumor. It makes me angry to think about all the ridiculous things people told me growing up.
Deborah Posted June 28, 2011 Posted June 28, 2011 It makes me angry to think about all the ridiculous things people told me growing up.Yeah, I should have left the church long ago based on some of things I heard.
thesometimesaint Posted June 28, 2011 Posted June 28, 2011 Rivers:We all hear more than enough Gospel Rumors to become Atheists if we let it. My favorite one was that the earth is hollow and the lost Ten Tribes live under the North Pole. Just forgive them and become the Saint you know how to be.
Rivers Posted June 28, 2011 Posted June 28, 2011 Rivers:We all hear more than enough Gospel Rumors to become Atheists if we let it. My favorite one was that the earth is hollow and the lost Ten Tribes live under the North Pole. Just forgive them and become the Saint you know how to be.Ok. I'll seek out a place in my heart for forgiveness.
zerinus Posted June 28, 2011 Posted June 28, 2011 I guess my problem is that I'm just old enough to remember when living the word of wisdom actually had a consistent logical standard that made sense.With time...that consistent standard has eroded...I grew up in an era when coffee was bad for one’s health...now it prevents cancer and is actually good for you...I grew up in an era when wine was bad...now with moderation, it’s good for one’s health.I grew up in an era when caffeine was the evil ingredient and should be avoided like alcohol…now it’s perfectly acceptable at least when not consumed in coffee.I grew up in an era when Jesus drank grape juice not alcoholic wine (yeah they actually used to teach that to members)And I grew up in an era when the church taught that Joseph Smith actually lived the Word of Wisdom, he supposedly received from God and even edited out all references to his tobacco and alcohol use in official church history to support that premise.So now the WoW is more nuanced and perhaps even more personal in its interpretation. It’s not about caffeine…it’s about not drinking coffee but really not even about not drinking coffee because decaffeinated coffee is ok…so It’s really not even about coffee...it’s about not drinking caffeinated coffee…and it’s not even a question of health….since coffee and wine are healthy…and since we’ve already determined that it’s not about the caffeine…since cold caffeine is ok... It must come down to sacrifice and obedience for illogical demands that often conflict.In the end it really makes no sense other than to say that it’s become a standard to mark allegiance to Mormonism and separate members from the rest of the world…in the end, that is what the Word of Wisdom really is…it’s the only way it even makes any sense.I live in an era when the Lord has said, "But ye are commanded in all things to ask of God, who giveth liberally; and that which the Spirit testifies unto you even so I would that ye should do in all holiness of heart, . . ." (D&C 46:7); and as far as I know that has always been on the statute book.
Deborah Posted June 28, 2011 Posted June 28, 2011 My favorite one was that the earth is hollow and the lost Ten Tribes live under the North Pole. I was told when I was at BYU that the rare books section had a journal of an explorer who actually found a green oasis in the North Pole.
HeatherAnn Posted June 28, 2011 Posted June 28, 2011 (edited) I drink my cola at room temperature, does that count? Ha! Then, & I can drink iced tea! The word of wisdom is for the weakest of the saints. The weakest of the saints probably includes people with addictive personalities. The weakest of the saints?? Aren't we ALL weak in one area or another? Doesn't everyone struggle with some type of addiction - even religious idealism?Some addictions or weaknesses are more obvious than others - but we all struggle. Edited June 28, 2011 by HeatherAnn
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted June 28, 2011 Posted June 28, 2011 The word of wisdom is for the weakest of the saints. The weakest of the saints probably includes people with addictive personalities. Sure wine and coffee can be healthy in moderation, but many people have problems becoming hooked on these things.You are correct. I am glad some one else brought this up. I think this is the point behind making parts of it a commandment later. We are to bear one another's burdens.
Craig Paxton Posted June 28, 2011 Author Posted June 28, 2011 I was told when I was at BYU that the rare books section had a journal of an explorer who actually found a green oasis in the North Pole.And I have a lovely bridge in Brooklyn,NY I'd like to sell you too...hey I'll give you a real bargin if paid in cash...
Craig Paxton Posted June 28, 2011 Author Posted June 28, 2011 The word of wisdom is for the weakest of the saints. The weakest of the saints probably includes people with addictive personalities.Wow what does that say about Joseph Smith who never lived the Word of Wisdom? I guess we've found a point of agreemnet.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted June 28, 2011 Posted June 28, 2011 Wow what does that say about Joseph Smith who never lived the Word of Wisdom? I guess we've found a point of agreemnet.CFR that JS never lived the WoW. 1
Deborah Posted June 28, 2011 Posted June 28, 2011 Wow what does that say about Joseph Smith who never lived the Word of Wisdom? I guess we've found a point of agreemnet.And you speak definitively on this because.... As far as I know Joseph did not smoke nor drink "strong" drink. Wine is not considered strong drink in some circles and even older children are allowed to partake. This was a new revelation and the people were encouraged to follow it but it was not a commandment at the time. How many times does this have to be said. 1 A Word of Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion— 2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days— 1
Craig Paxton Posted June 28, 2011 Author Posted June 28, 2011 (edited) CFR that JS never lived the WoW.It's pretty common knowledge that JS didn't live the word of wisdom...but like Deborah ssays...it wasn't like it is today...it was more of a suggestion than a commandment so I'll cut him some slack. But it was still given for the weakest of saints...and since Joseph didn't live it...I'm only drawing a line between two dots on the map.Do a simple Google search and I'm sure that you'll find many satisfactory references that confirm the fact that Joseph didn't live the WoW...good grief...you do know that he owned a saloon in his home right?...ummm connect the dots ok...As Deborah also states he did drink wine and beer...on a regular basis...but Sorry Deborah...his favorite drink was Whiskey, which is considered a hard liquor...you haven’t read the Joseph Smith papers yet? I'm surprised.Oh and he did smoke cigars...that pretty common knowledge as well... I know CFR CFRhere yeah go..."Joseph tested the Saints to make sure their testimonies were of his religion and not of him as a personable leader. Amasa Lyman, of the First presidency, related: 'Joseph Smith tried the faith of the Saints many times by his peculiarities. At one time, he had preached a powerful sermon on the Word of Wisdom, and immediately thereafter, he rode through the streets of Nauvoo smoking a cigar. Some of the brethren were tried as was Abraham of old'" (Gary Dean Guthrie, "Joseph Smith As An Administrator", Master's Thesis, Brigham Young University, May 1969, p.161)“Before the jailor came in, his boy brought in some water, and said the guard wanted some WINE. JOSEPH gave Dr. Richards two dollars to give the guard; but the guard said one was enough, and would take no more. “The guard immediately sent FOR A BOTTLE OF WINE, pipes, and two small papers of tobacco; and one of the guards brought them into the jail soon after the jailor went out. Dr. Richards uncorked the bottle, AND PRESENTED A GLASS TO JOSEPH, WHO TASTED, AS BROTHER TAYLOR AND THE DOCTOR, and the bottle was then given to the guard, who turned to go out.” (History of the Church, Vol. 6, page 616) "Sometime after dinner we sent for some WINE. It hasbeen reported by some that this was taken as a sacrament. It was NO SUCH THING; our spirits were generally dull and heavy, and it was sent for to revive us.... I believe we all drank of the WINE, and gave some to one or two of the prison guards."(John Taylor, in History of the Church, Vol. 7, page 101)But I should add...these were different times...the word of wisdom wasn't lived like it is today...so in my opinion, he gets a pass...Oh and you'll have to go to an odler copy of church history since the church edits out all references to his drinking...really don't know what they were trying to hide...its no big deal Edited June 28, 2011 by Craig Paxton
Jigglysaint Posted June 28, 2011 Posted June 28, 2011 You are correct. I am glad some one else brought this up. I think this is the point behind making parts of it a commandment later. We are to bear one another's burdens.Actually I think the moderates are the ones who get hurt the most with this. You know, the people who can only have a little drink now and then, or have 1 coffee a year and not worry, or somebody who enjoys a nice hookah every once in a while. It's one thing to know that the substance will hurt you(in terms of addictiveness), but it's another to know it won't matter because you just don't get addicted to that stuff that kills all the joy you did get from it.The worst part is that even the moderates can become addicted when somebody tries to steal their freedom. "Oh I drank 2 beers instead of 1 to prove to others that I don't get addicted to alcohol".
Deborah Posted June 28, 2011 Posted June 28, 2011 his favorite drink was Whiskey, which is considered a hard liquor...you haven’t read the Joseph Smith papers yet? I'm surprised.Snide, snide, snide. I am still reading them. The CFR still applies. Joseph in fact banned whiskey in Nauvoo for awhile but because of all the visitors to the city he allowed it to be sold. That doesn't mean he drank it. Emma would in fact have had a problem with it. When he opened the bar in the mansion house until Porter could open his bar, Emma refused to remain under the roof until he removed it which he promptly did. WOW
Craig Paxton Posted June 28, 2011 Author Posted June 28, 2011 (edited) Snide, snide, snide. I am still reading them. The CFR still applies. Joseph in fact banned whiskey in Nauvoo for awhile but because of all the visitors to the city he allowed it to be sold. That doesn't mean he drank it. Emma would in fact have had a problem with it. When he opened the bar in the mansion house until Porter could open his bar, Emma refused to remain under the roof until he removed it which he promptly did. WOWKeep reading...but to be honest with you...a close personal associate of mine is on the publishing committee...he's my source...should be in one of the upcoming volumes...he claims that it may surprise some members...but I doubt it will any of the regular posters here...you'all seem pretty informed and knowledgable...well most of yeahI applaud the church for this "papers" project...I believe that they're really putting it all out there, good and bad, for all to see... Edited June 28, 2011 by Craig Paxton
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