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Cold Caffeine Vs Hot Caffeine


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Posted

Caffeine has nothing to do with the Word of Wisdom. It is not in keeping with the Sprit of the Word of Wisdom or the letter of the same law. The Word of Wisdom is not an eternal principle; it is solely for the current mortal period and it will be done away with when the Savior returns to partake of the fruit of the vine with the saints.

Posted (edited)

Coffee Caffiene Content for various types/brands of coffee. There is a big difference here between a serving of coffee several times a day and a chocolate bar once in a while. Also remember that caffeine is not the only part of the law. Its obedience to the law and helping us understand the connection between it and the spirit of the law. Eating too much chocolate would also be a violation of the spirit of the Word of Wisdom. I suspect most people that have trouble with the Word of Wisdom also have trouble understanding the Spirit of any law.

IMO

Edited by Messenger
Posted (edited)
Also remember that caffeine is not the only part of the law.

Caffeine is not any part of the law save for a personal interpretation. Edited by calmoriah
Posted

The bishop in my ward has a bowl of chocolates on his desk..

And I have 50 lbs of semi sweet chocolate chips in my food storage (which actually get rotated) and yet I have no trouble answering 'yes' in my Temple Recommend interviews when asked if I live the Word of Wisdom. That's because I DO live the Word of Wisdom AND I eat chocolate.

There is nothing in the Word of Wisdom about chocolate. There is nothing in the Word of Wisdom about caffeine. Since I am aware that caffeine is a stimulant, I am careful about consuming it, but I know that I CAN consume it at times, without violating the letter or the spirit of the Word of Wisdom. I also don't worry about it because I am aware that I consume products which have small amounts of alcohol in them, and yet, I'm still in compliance. One obvious example is Vanilla extract, which I use for baking and cooking on a regular basis; other flavorings have alcohol in them also. Many OTC cold medicines have alcohol. I'm sure that others here on the message board would be happy to make a list of regular products that most LDS use that contain alcohol as well. In small amounts and depending on how it's used, it has it's purposes and is no more harmful than some other ingredients--which we were not warned against because people weren't in the habit of imbibing at the time that it was given.

What the saints were warned against was the habitual drinking of certain products--Alcohol, black/green tea, and coffee. We've been asked as a condition of worthiness to abstain from consuming these products. Some LDS may wish to go the extra mile and not use any product with these ingredients, even in small amounts--that's fine for them--but it is not a requirement to be in compliance with the 'word of wisdom' as outlined in the Temple recommend interview and they're going to have some difficulty doing this unless they are of the belief that 'the alcohol cooks out of it' when using extracts etc, but that's only when used in baking.

The Word of Wisdom was given to help us avoid products which are seriously addictive, unhealthy and can diminish a person's exercise of agency, impair their ability to feel and be guided by the spirit and even ruin family relationships. So far, I've never heard of caffeine having this kind of devastating effect--even if a person drinks tons of caffeinated soda, I've not heard of them becoming homeless and drinking themselves to death. While tea and coffee don't have the same danger as alcoholic beverages, they are very much stimulants, very addicting and they affect people's moods and health--much more so than soda, IMO and this can cause problems in how a person relates to others on a daily basis.

Posted

lest use Craig Paxtons logic, caffienated coffee bad decaf ok. He then states "it must be because of caffiene". So using his logic, if "hot drinks" was about caffeine then the LDS could not eat chocolate either. So using his logic, since LDS can eat chocolate and chocolate contains caffeine then caffeine must not be reason behind, and from what I can find decaf coffee has caffeine in it.

Also IIRC President Monson has made mention of eating chocolate. Secondly I knew a family, the dad is now a SP, but this family would not allow caffienated drinks in their house, but they did allow chocolate of all stripes.

edited for Alter Diem, I am not positive as to President Monson mentioning chocolate.

Ok so the WoW isn't about Caffeine use, I'm more than willing to concede that point...So in other words, Caffeine is perfectly ok to consume, irrespective of the means used to consume it. But then I wonder...Ummmm....why all the admonitions against the use of caffeine in various Ensign articles...if it's not about the caffeine. I guess the church just had some extra ink they wanted to use up and thought that maybe a random article on Caffeine would be the perfect subject to use that ink on. Yup makes perfect sense. Good to know that caffeine use isn't a concern though.

http://lds.org/search?lang=eng&query=Caffeine

Posted

Craig Paxton:

I wouldn't say that caffeine is perfectly ok to use. In the small amounts in things like chocolate there is no evidence that it is harmful. The sugar content of most chocolates is of greater concern.

Posted

The Chocolate Ritual

Based on the original © 1993 by John Shepard

as performed at Dragonfest in August, 1993

Materials required: On the altar are brown candles, a Tootsie Roll (the great big one, as the athame), a large glass with milk in it (the chalice), a small dish of Nestle's Quick and a spoon, a small dish of chocolate sprinkles, a plate of cupcakes, and some Yoo-Hoo along with a goblet.

CLEANSE THE SACRED SPACE

HPS:

(take the small bowl of chocolate sprinkles)

Chocolate sprinkles where thou art cast No calories in thy presence last. Let no fat adhere to me And as I will so mote it be!

Nestle's Quick where thou art cast Turn this milk to chocolate, fast. Let all good things come to me, and make my milk all chocolatey!

CAST THE CIRCLE

HP:

(using a tootsie roll)

CALL THE QUARTERS

HP:

Mousse of the East
, Fluffy one! Great prince of the palace of dessert! Be present we pray thee, and guard this circle from all moochers approaching from the East.

Fondue of the South
, Molten one! Great prince of the palace decadence! Be present we pray thee, and guard this circle from all diets approaching from the South.

Cocoa of the West
, Satisfying one! Great prince of the palace of thirst! Be present we pray thee, and guard this circle from all carob approaching from the West.

Rocky Road of the North
, Cold one! Great prince of the palace of crunchy! Be present we pray thee, and guard this circle from all cheap imitations approaching from the North.

MAIN RITUAL

HANDMAIDEN (Henceforth known as the Swiss Miss):

Listen to the words of the Mother of Chocolate; who was of old called: Godiva, Ethel M., Sara Lee, Nestle, Mrs. See, and by many other names:

HPS:

Whenever you have one of those cravings, once in a while and better it be when your checkbook is full, then shall you assemble in a great public place and bring offerings of money to the spirit of Me, who is Queen of all Goodies. In the mall shall you assemble, you who have eaten all your chocolate and are hungry for more. To you I shall bring Good Things for your tongue. And you shall be free from depression. And as a sign that you are truly free, you shall have chocolate smears on your cheeks, and you shall munch, nosh, snack, feast, and make yummy noises all in my presence. For mine is the ecstacy of phenylalanine, and mine is also the joy on earth, yea, even into high orbit for my law is "melts in your mouth, not in your hand". Keep clean your fingers, carry Wet Ones always, let none stop you aside. For mine is the secret that opens your mouth, and mine is the taste that puts a smile on your lips and comfy padding pounds on your hips. I am the gracious Goddess who gives the gift of joy onto the tummies of men and women. Upon earth, I give knowledge of all things delicious, and beyond death well, I can't do much there. Sorry about that. I demand only your money in sacrifice, for behold, chocolate is a business, and you have to pay for those truffles before you eat them.

SWISS MISS:

Hear now the words of the Goodie Goddess, she in the dust of whose feet are the cheap imitations, whose body graces candy racks and finer stores everywhere:

I, who am the beauty of chocolate chips, and the satisfying softness of big bars, the mystery of how they get the filling inside truffles, and fill the hearts of all but Philistines with desire, call unto thy soul to arise and come unto me. For I am the soul of candy, from me do all confections spring, and unto me all of you shall return, again.... and again... and again.... and again. Before my smeared face, beloved of women and men, thine innermost divine self shall be enfolded in the rapture of overdose. Let my taste be within thy mouth that rejoices. For behold, all acts of yumminess and pleasure are my rituals. Therefore let there be gooeyness and mess, crispness and crackling, big slabs and bite size pieces, peanut butter and chocolate covered cherries all within you. And you who think to seek me, know that your seeking and yearning shall avail you not unless you know the Mystery: "We shall sell no chocolate until you pay for it" For behold: I have been with you since you were just a baby, and I am that which is attained at nearly any shop in the land. Messed be.

SWISS MISS:

Hear now the words of the Chocolate God, who was called Ghirardelli, Milton Snavely Hershey, Bosco, Fudgesicle, and by many other names:

HP:

I am the strength of the candy rack, and the piece that fell on the floor but looks like it may not have gotten too dirty, and the deepest bitterness of dark chocolate. No matter how you try to resist the call of chocolate, I will hunt you out, and I will become your sacred prey. I am warmth of hot cocoa in the dead of winter, and the call of the road that leads you to that really expensive Godiva store downtown. I give you my creatures, the fire of love of chocolate, the power of jaw strength to bite off a piece of that frozen Milky Way bar and the shelter of Haagen Dazs when that big date didn't work out. You are dear to me, and I instill in you my power of a piece of chocolate that you had forgotten you had hidden, and the power of vision and magickal sight with which you can spot a candy counter a mile away. By the powers of the half melted bar in the glorious sun, I charge you, by the darkest depths of the bottom of the cocoa pot and lingering smell of bittersweet chocolate, I charge you, and by the beauty of a perfectly swirled vanilla butter cream, I charge you. Follow your heart and your instinct, wherever they lead you. The wealth in your pocket can buy you treats that a Mayan king would envy. Take joy in that first bite of lecithin emulsified cocoa, and in the last satisfying slurp of Yoo-Hoo. Yet you must be wary of deceit. Eat not of that which is called "baking chocolate", for it is vile and bitter. Lastly, always remember to leave some chocolate behind you. Be not greedy, but let yourself be known as a conoisseur. Leave a little for someone else. I am with you always, just over your shoulder, or around the next corner. I am the Lord of Chocolate, and when you have reached the end of you hoard, I will never be further away from you than that 7-Eleven on the corner. I am the spirit of the wild child, the inner child who can never get quite enough. If you are a true chocolate lover, then your soul and mine are intertwined.

May the great wings of Inanna enfold you, may the wisdom of Hecate guide you and above all, may the curiosity of Persephone always keep you fresh, young at heart and mentally alive.

SWISS MISS:

Xocolatl, Dark Lord, Sweet Lord, Lord of the truffle and of the snickered bar. He to whom we call in the hour of our greatest need. He who makes us happy when we are down. He who fills our souls with all that is delicious. He to whom we chant ...

ALL:

We all come from the cocoa bean, and to him we shall return, Like a drip of hot fudge, running down our shirtfront...

CUPCAKES AND YOO-HOO

Blessing of the Yoo-Hoo

HP:

Be it known that milk chocolate is not better than dark chocolate

HPS:

Nor is dark chocolate better than milk chocolate

HP:

For both are better than the falsely named "white chocolate"

HPS:

And neither one is carob

HP:

As the frosting is to the cupcake

HPS:

So the creamy nougat is to the Milky Way bar

HPS & HP:

And when they are eaten, they are yummy in truth, for there is no greater snack in all the world than one made of chocolate.

Blessing of the Cupcakes

HP:

Frosting is keen

HPS:

And frosting is neat

HPS & HP:

Great Goddess! Let's eat!

Feasting and Drinking

SUGAR CONE OF POWER

ALL:

Power of Hershey! Power of Nestle'!

Goddess of Godiva! Mother of Cadbury!

Father of all Belgian confections!

Dancing Swiss Pagan Chocolate Cows!

Protect us with thy phenylalanine!

Wash over us with rivers of syrup!

Cast thy chips beneath our feet of pilgrimage!

Surround us with a moat of hot fudge!

Cast out our health-fiend betrayers!

(repeat 3 times)

DISMISS QUARTERS

(at each quarter say the following)

HP:

Oh, ye mighty goodies of the __________, we thank you for attending our rites and guarding our circle, and ere you depart for your sweet and sticky realms, we say unto you, "N-E-S-T-L-E-S, Nestles makes the very best ..."

ALL:

Choooooooc-laaaaate

(After all quarters have been dismissed, all give a final satisfying belch at the east)

CLOSE CIRCLE

Posted (edited)

Ok so the WoW isn't about Caffeine use, I'm more than willing to concede that point...So in other words, Caffeine is perfectly ok to consume, irrespective of the means used to consume it. But then I wonder...Ummmm....why all the admonitions against the use of caffeine in various Ensign articles...if it's not about the caffeine. I guess the church just had some extra ink they wanted to use up and thought that maybe a random article on Caffeine would be the perfect subject to use that ink on. Yup makes perfect sense. Good to know that caffeine use isn't a concern though.

http://lds.org/searc...&query=Caffeine

Craig which of those do you consider "admonitions". I just check two selection randomly one is a non-answer which I will post

Is there anything wrong with drinking sodas with caffeine in them? Is caffeine bad? The Word of Wisdom doesn’t mention it.

02244_000_023 Doctrine and Covenants 89:9 says we shouldn’t drink “hot drinks.” The only official interpretation of this term is the statement made by early Church leaders that it means tea and coffee. Caffeine is not specifically mentioned as the reason not to drink these drinks.

However, we should keep in mind this counsel given by President Boyd K. Packer: “The Word of Wisdom was ‘given for a principle with promise’ (D&C 89:3). … A principle is an enduring truth, a law, a rule you can adopt to guide you in making decisions. Generally principles are not spelled out in detail. Members write in asking if this thing or that is against the Word of Wisdom. … We teach the principle together with the promised blessings. There are many habit-forming, addictive things that one can drink or chew or inhale or inject which injure both body and spirit which are not mentioned in the revelation. … Obedience to counsel will keep you on the safe side of life” (“The Word of Wisdom: The Principle and the Promises,” Ensign, May 1996, 17–18).

The other link I checked states this:

“At no time has cocoa or chocolate been included in the prohibitions of the Word of Wisdom, and at no time has the Church said that cocoa is as harmful as coffee.

“Those who make these claims do so on their own responsibility, and obviously without knowing the facts of the matter.

“When interviewing for temple recommends, for instance, or for advancement in the priesthood, or for baptism, or for any other purpose, bishops never inquire as to whether a person drinks cocoa or eats chocolate candy. If the use of cocoa and chocolate were against the doctrine of the Church such inquiry would be made, but it is not.

I will continue checking the articles, but I would like you input on which ones you see as admonitions against caffiene. I would also note that several of the articles reference "high doses" of caffeine.

Two references to caffeine come from General Conference, and neither is a statement against it.

Edited by frankenstein
Posted

I admit that it doesn't make perfect logical sense why members of the church can't drink hot caffeine, but are allowed to drink cold caffeine.

It also doesn't make any sense why many members of the church shun any movie with an R rating while at the same time reading books with R rated material.

Posted (edited)
I admit that it doesn't make perfect logical sense why members of the church can't drink hot caffeine, but are allowed to drink cold caffeine.

Repeatedly in this topic, we have seen that this assertion is simply untrue.

The Word of Wisdom does not prohibit caffeine, cold or hot. It prohibits hot drinks, which are, by revealed definition, tea and coffee. Even in their cold form (iced tea/coffee), they are still prohibited.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
Posted

I admit that it doesn't make perfect logical sense why members of the church can't drink hot caffeine, but are allowed to drink cold caffeine.

It also doesn't make any sense why many members of the church shun any movie with an R rating while at the same time reading books with R rated material.

Are you saying the LDS can drink cold coffee?

You have not been reading what's been posted and it seems useless to put valuable time and effort into putting together a response when it will just be ignored.

I also have no clue where you get the idea that LDS are fine with reading R rated material.

This is clearly a waste of my time.

Posted

I also have no clue where you get the idea that LDS are fine with reading R rated material.

My wife was in a relief society book club and they were reading a book that was very R rated. I'm simply saying that members of the church often have no problem following specific rules, but obeying principles is something else. I hope I'm some sense.

Posted

Are you saying the LDS can drink cold coffee?

Of course not, I'm just using the terminology given in the title of the thread.

Posted

Cal,

There is plenty of evidence that caffeine can be addictive. Most stimulants are. While it is true that caffeine is not specifically mentioned in any "law', like most 'laws' they simply don’t work without the spirit, or what some might call personal interpretation.

“Leaders of the Church have advised, and we do now specifically advise, against the use of any drink containing harmful habit-forming drugs under circumstances that would result in acquiring the habit. Any beverage that contains ingredients harmful to the body should be avoided”

But much has been published by the church in recent years. This articles below pretty much spell it out. I suppose it could be the authors own personal opinion, but remember, the author of the first article is a doctor publishing for the church, and is on the church website located here (http://lds.org/ensign/2008/12/the-energy-drink-epidemic?lang=eng&query=Caffeine+Sports+Drinks )

The Energy Drink Epidemic

By Thomas J. Boud, MD

What are the consequences of high caffeine consumption? First and foremost, caffeine is a central nervous system stimulant that can lead to addiction. Both as a doctor and as a member of the Church, I recognize the physical, mental, and spiritual dangers of any addictive substance. Any addictive behavior, whatever the source, can lead to a loss of spiritual health and freedom.

President James E. Faust (1920–2007) said, “Some addictions can control us to the point where they take away our God-given agency. One of Satan’s great tools is to find ways to control us. Consequently, we should abstain from anything that would keep us from fulfilling the Lord’s purposes for us, whereby the blessings of eternity may hang in jeopardy. … Any kind of addiction inflicts a terrible price in pain and suffering, and it can even affect us spiritually.”

Not all caffeinated drinks are created equal; the quantity of caffeine varies greatly from product to product. To put this into perspective, consider that most cola soft drinks have from 22 to 55 milligrams (mg) of caffeine, compared to a common cup of tea that varies from 26 to 47 mg. Coffee may have from 57 mg for a cup of instant to 180 mg for a cup of brewed. By comparison, energy drinks may have from 80 to 500 mg of caffeine in one can. 2 Companies compete to market the product that provides the biggest jolt. To do this, manufacturers combine caffeine with other substances such as alcohol in order to intensify its effects. These beverages often come in large containers and are frequently loaded with calorie-heavy sugars.

-----------------

I have a question

Church Source Link: http://lds.org/ensign/1981/01/staying-healthy-welfare-services-suggests-how?lang=eng&query=Caffeine+Sports+Drinks

Q. What are the health consequences of drinking caffeine drinks other than coffee? What is the position of the Church regarding their use?

A. The full answer to this question lies in the area of medical opinion and reliance on personal discernment. Cola beverages do contain caffeine and thus may be avoided in accordance with the spirit of the Word of Wisdom. The most current Church literature relating to the question is found in a Priesthood Bulletin statement dated February 1972:

“With reference to cola drinks, the Church has never officially taken a position on this matter, but the leaders of the Church have advised, and we do now specifically advise, against the use of any drink containing harmful habit-forming drugs under circumstances that would result in acquiring the habit. Any beverage that contains ingredients harmful to the body should be avoided.”

-----------------

So in my opinion, like most drugs, if a doctor has prescribed it, which some actually do, then it’s fine. But I have to say that if it is habit forming, which caffeine is, then it’s pretty clear that it does indeed go against the word of wisdom, both written and spirit according to the articles above.

Is there really any true dispute?

Posted

Ok so the WoW isn't about Caffeine use, I'm more than willing to concede that point...So in other words, Caffeine is perfectly ok to consume, irrespective of the means used to consume it. But then I wonder...Ummmm....why all the admonitions against the use of caffeine in various Ensign articles...if it's not about the caffeine. I guess the church just had some extra ink they wanted to use up and thought that maybe a random article on Caffeine would be the perfect subject to use that ink on. Yup makes perfect sense. Good to know that caffeine use isn't a concern though.

http://lds.org/searc...&query=Caffeine

Your concession does not necessarily mean your understanding of the word of wisdom. Caffeine by implication may be avoided in larger doses as a stimulant and an addictive substance. That is not something expressly stated in the WoW but for many Saints it may be best for them to avoid it.

It is an unprofitable servant that needs commanded in all things.

Posted (edited)

“Leaders of the Church have advised, and we do now specifically advise, against the use of any drink containing harmful habit-forming drugs under circumstances that would result in acquiring the habit. Any beverage that contains ingredients harmful to the body should be avoided”

Is there really any true dispute?

yes, there is.

A quote from a 1972 Priesthood bulletine that is not repeated nor referenced in numerous response to caffeine in Church publications isn't really of much force.

Q. What are the health consequences of drinking caffeine drinks other than coffee? What is the position of the Church regarding their use?

There is no current Church policy that would preclude a bishop issuing a temple recommend to a person who consumes cola beverages.

---

why did you leave this part out of your post?

Edited by frankenstein
Posted (edited)

It is an unprofitable servant that needs commanded in all things.

Exactly! The ten commandments are simply a more descriptive version of the original two. Once you understand the concept, the need for the 10 specific commandments is moot and all the other ones that follow. This is exactly the same as the word of wisdom. In fact, one might say the 10 commandments in fact does have the main concept of the original two. Those are the ones (I believe) Moses came down from the mountain with the first time. His followers didnt understand, so he had to haul his butt all the way back up there and ended up with the 10 commandments.

The truth is also found here:

Mathew 22

36. Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37. Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt alove the Lord thy God with all thy bheart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy cmind.

38. This is the first and great acommandment.

39. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt alove thy neighbour as thyself.

40. On these two commandments hang all the alaw and the prophets.

If you love yourself, you would never put addictive things into your body, unless there was a medical reason. Further, if you love God, why would you cut yourself off from his communication by doing so? Love God, Love yourself... Everything else falls into place.

Edited by Messenger
Posted

yes, there is.

A quote from a 1972 Priesthood bulletine that is not repeated nor referenced in numerous response to caffeine in Church publications isn't really of much force.

Q. What are the health consequences of drinking caffeine drinks other than coffee? What is the position of the Church regarding their use?

There is no current Church policy that would preclude a bishop issuing a temple recommend to a person who consumes cola beverages.

---

why did you leave this part out of your post?

Suffice to say that I have... already answered. The spirit of the law my friend. Temple recommends interviews are more about the letter of the law than the spirit of the law. I never said anybody couldnt get a temple recommend if they drank cola. But, as I have pointed out, there are health issues regarding it. Some quite serious. In some of those cases, its pretty clear that one might not be able to perform ones duty - in the temple or gaining inspiration for a calling. Whats the difference? I've answered your question, now will you answer mine?

Posted

What’s the difference? What is the difference between being cut off from the spirit, not being able to gain inspiration for your responsibilities (family, calling, etc etc etc) and the letter of the law which states no hot drinks? If they both have the same outcome, then there isn’t a difference except that one allows you to interview positively for a temple recommend and the other does not. But, what good is a temple recommend if you cannot gain inspiration when you actually go to the temple? So, I ask you again ... What is the difference?

Frankie, do you think it’s possible that you don’t want to understand? Or, do you think there is something in the way of you understanding? To me it’s simple. That’s why I gave the scripture about what concept hangs all the laws of the prophets. There aren’t a million commandments, but there are enough for us to figure out a pattern to them, and some very inspired people that are pretty clear about how the church feels about addictions.

If a person doesn’t know if they are addicted to caffeine or not, to find out, simply put it down and get it out of your house. If you feel the actual need to have it, and have withdrawal symptoms such as headaches and irritability, then you are in fact addicted. If you are, then you are more than likely missing out on those delicate inspirations that speak truth. Get it?

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