Cold Caffeine Vs Hot Caffeine

[Rivers]

If the church were to make not drinking caffeinated sodas binding to church members, we would next have to outlaw chocolate. Then we have to outlaw Excedrin.

Edited June 27, 2011 by Rivers

[Craig Paxton]

Because there are LDS who would be highly offended at it being offered at BYU. Because there are many people like Craig Paxton who were raised as Mormon Pharisees, and who were convinced that anything less than every-jot-and-tittle obedience to every single point of the Law was going to land them promptly in the Telestial Kingdom. Madness.

Since I don't live there and have never so much as watched a BYU football game, is it really true that they don't serve Coke there?

LOL...Now I'm a Mormon Pharisee? LOL Excuse me but other than the cold vs hot caffeine conundrum...the Word of Wisdom is pretty black and white...just try getting a recommend by not crossing your "T" or dotting your "i". If I'm a Pharisee because I can't see the nauance (other than the hot vs cold caffeine conumdrum) then so be it. But honestly I try not to judge other people I don't know anything about...that would make me a Pharisee...

[ELF1024]

LOL...Now I'm a Mormon Pharisee? LOL Excuse me but other than the cold vs hot caffeine conundrum...the Word of Wisdom is pretty black and white...just try getting a recommend by not crossing your "T" or dotting your "i". If I'm a Pharisee because I can't see the nauance (other than the hot vs cold caffeine conumdrum) then so be it. But honestly I try not to judge other people I don't know anything about...that would make me a Pharisee...

Frankly, I don't much care what the denizens of the board think about cold, hot, or room temp caffeine. It is not up to them to decide how I interpret the Word of Wisdom. It is between me, my Bishop, and my Stake President. The same goes for you. It is a personal choice to partake of caffeine or not.

What anyone else has to say on the subject is irrelevant.

Edited June 27, 2011 by ELF1024

[thesometimesaint]

Rivers:

No, but the sugar content of hot chocolate should give anyone pause. Excedrin is a medication thus exempt from the WoW.

[Craig Paxton]

Frankly, I don't much care what the denizens of the board think about cold, hot, or room temp caffeine. It is not up to them to decide how I interpret the Word of Wisdom. It is between me, my Bishop, and my Stake President. The same goes for you. It is a personal choice to partake of caffeine or not.

What anyone else has to say on the subject is irrelevant.

While I completely agree that consumption of caffeine is a personal choice...try drinking it in coffee...if you try to get a temple recommend...it suddenly is going to be interperted by how the church interprets it...and the church says it can't be in the coffee you consume...but its perfectly ok if its in your cola.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

While I completely agree that consumption of caffeine is a personal choice...try drinking it in coffee...if you try to get a temple recommend...it suddenly is going to be interperted by how the church interprets it...and the church says it can't be in the coffee you consume...but its perfectly ok if its in your cola.

Um it is not the caffeine that is the issue it is the coffee. I thought this has been made abundantly clear. I guess not. The church no were says it is ok to drink decaf. Try and get a recommend getting decaf. You wont get one. Who is up for my challange?

Tell your bishop and SP that you drink decaf coffee or tea and tell me if you can get a recommend.

Of course "it suddenly is going to be interperted by how the church interprets it" because coffee is spelled out and caffeine is not.

Edited June 27, 2011 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Craig Paxton]

Um it is not the caffeine that is the issue it is the coffee. I thought this has been made abundantly clear. I guess not. The church no were says it is ok to drink decaf. Try and get a recommend getting decaf. You wont get one. Who is up for my challange?

Tell your bishop and SP that you drink decaf coffee or tea and tell me if you can get a recommend.

Of course "it suddenly is going to be interperted by how the church interprets it" because coffee is spelled out and caffeine is not.

With all due respect....you are completely misinformed on this particular issue...decaf coffee consumption has NEVER been a deterrent to acquiring a temple recommend.

[Nofear]

Um it is not the caffeine that is the issue it is the coffee. I thought this has been made abundantly clear. I guess not. The church no were says it is ok to drink decaf. Try and get a recommend getting decaf. You wont get one. Who is up for my challange?

Tell your bishop and SP that you drink decaf coffee or tea and tell me if you can get a recommend.

Of course "it suddenly is going to be interperted by how the church interprets it" because coffee is spelled out and caffeine is not.

You are right that the Church nowhere says it is ok to drink decaffeinated coffee -- indeed, it is frowned upon. Nonetheless, Craig Paxton is correct to say that use of decaffeinated coffee should not be used by a bishop or stake president to deny a temple recommend. A quick search of fairlds or other internet places will reveal some informal clarifications that have come by way of the office of the First Presidency.

[ELF1024]

You are right that the Church nowhere says it is ok to drink decaffeinated coffee -- indeed, it is frowned upon. Nonetheless, Craig Paxton is correct to say that use of decaffeinated coffee should not be used by a bishop or stake president to deny a temple recommend. A quick search of fairlds or other internet places will reveal some informal clarifications that have come by way of the office of the First Presidency.

Now, mind you since I just got back from being excommunicated, it's been years since I had a temple recommend interview; however to my memory they don't ask specifics about the Word of Wisdom, they just ask if you follow it.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You are right that the Church nowhere says it is ok to drink decaffeinated coffee -- indeed, it is frowned upon. Nonetheless, Craig Paxton is correct to say that use of decaffeinated coffee should not be used by a bishop or stake president to deny a temple recommend. A quick search of fairlds or other internet places will reveal some informal clarifications that have come by way of the office of the First Presidency.

I have only my experience to go off of. We could not issue a recommendation for baptism if an investigator is drinking decaf. Who here has gotten a temple recommend, after full disclosure, to the SP and Bishop that they drink Decaf coffee or tea? So far everyone is dodging my challenge/question and just telling me I am uninformed.

If asked if "You follow the Wow" and you just say yes, and then claim "Well I don't feel guilty". That is not what I am asking. If they ask you "do you follow the WoW" and you say I drink Decaf coffee am I good to go, see if you get a recommend.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

With all due respect....you are completely misinformed on this particular issue...decaf coffee consumption has NEVER been a deterrent to acquiring a temple recommend.

CFR Mr Informed. I issued you a challenge and you skirted the issue. I want something official not something written only one time in a non official capacity.

Edited June 27, 2011 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Nathair/|\]

If anyone takes up MRSR's challenge and brings me a note from their SP, I will personally make them a haggis.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Here's a relevant footnote in an article by Michael Ash:

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2000_Up_in_Smoke.html#en135 (footnote 135)

Since this seems to be the point of my "uninformed opinion" As far as I can tell this was President Mckay's opinion. As this was the only utterance of this "doctrine".

I reissue my challenge. Tell your bishop and SP that your drink decaf. You won't get a recommend. I had several members in WV saying the hardest thing was to give up their coffee, they could not even drink decaf.

In fact, I need to get my recommend renewed soon. I will ask both my bishop and SP if I drank decaf could I still get a recommend.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

If anyone takes up MRSR's challenge and brings me a note from their SP, I will personally make them a haggis.

I would love to be wrong on this issue, I really would. I just want to be proved wrong.

[LeSellers]

If anyone takes up MRSR's challenge and brings me a note from their SP, I will personally make them a haggis.

That's supposed to be a motivation?

Lehi

[Deborah]

This whole discussion is rather moot as so much of the WOW is left up to our own discretion and needs. No one should be judging what someone else is doing or not doing. It is between that person, the bishop and God.

If the argument is about caffeine not everyone is on the same page:

benefits of caffeine

web md

benefits

I'm one who believes the term "hot drinks" applies to that. People have brought up other hot drinks, ie cocoa, and hot food. However, these are things are usually not partaken of at the same hot temp of coffee and tea.

hot drinks

or is this why we are warned against hot drinks hot drinks

[ERayR]

If the ban is not about caffeine, why can't I get a Coke at BYU football game?

Because the University has a contract with Pepsi?

[ERayR]

Swallowing camels and straining at gnats.

[KevinG]

I'd like to find a completely alcohol free Guinness equivalent. The closest I can find is Sharps and similar.

Guiness makes a non-alcoholic amber but no stout. Stout is the only thing I still crave from my pre-covenant days (24 years ago). Perhaps they will get to it eventually.

The less than .05% alcohol content label is there in case some doesn't get separated out in processing. That amount is roughly the same amount of alcohol in orange juice that is a week old. I tend not to order non-alcoholic beer around the kids so they don't get too comfortable with the idea that dad drinks anything "like unto" beer, but I occasionally order an O'Douls when out on a date. I figure its healthier than soda pop.

[KevinG]

The rhetorical tool "Straw Man" is thrown around a lot on this forum...it would be nice if those that used it actually knew what a ‘straw man fallacy argument’ actually was before they used the term. For those that would like to actually learn so that they use the term correctly in the future...in layman’s terms, it is a rhetorical tool used to muddy an argument by introducing a supposedly easier argument NOT used in an original premise in the hope that by supposedly winning some rhetorical gain through the use of their straw man they can claim victory over the original premise. An off shoot of this rhetorical trick and off times easier approach than to actually debate the original premise straight on is to call the original premise itself, the Straw man, in the hope that through this maneuver rather than arguing the actual premise head on, one can win the argument. But in reality it is really just a diversionary rhetorical trick…called a straw dog or in rhetorical lingo an Argumentum ad stipulae canis. This is what DaddyG has attempted to do. Rather than argue the original premise found in my original post he has perhaps cleverly or maybe unwittingly used a straw dog rhetorical argument by calling my original premise itself the Straw Man. I don’t know if he actually knew he was doing this or if he knows that I would be aware of this rhetorical tool or if he merely believes that I wouldn’t call him out on it. In any case…the original premise stands.

There still remains within the LDS church a conundrum between Hot and Cold Caffeine drinks and their impact on qualifying for a temple recommend. Where caffeine found in hot coffee is prohibited, caffeine found in cold cola’s is perfectly acceptable. To those who doubt this reality…all one needs to do is simply ask anyone who has sat on both sides of the temple recommend interview process … Umm … such as I have done. Decaffeinated coffee consumption is perfectly fine and will not disqualify an applicant from a recommend while someone who indulges in hot caffeinated coffee will not qualify for a recommend. It isn’t the use of coffee…but rather the caffeine in the coffee that is the disqualifier…YET…the use of cold caffeine in a cola is perfectly acceptable. Although I will allow that if that same caffeinated coffee was served and consumed as iced coffee…that form of cold caffeine would also disqualify the recommend seeker as well… Umm another conundrum…

I should note that I have no beef with DaddyG...if he chooses to argue my original premise...I am more than happy to defend it...but I won't roll over and concede through the use of a rhetorical ploy.

I disagree with your original premise - in the form of a false choice (I stand corrected on mislabeling the fallacy). The word of wisdom is not about caffiene (although caffiene could be covered by the WoW). No one is asking you to roll over (that statement might be a straw man?). We are pointing out that the OP is a very narrow view of the WoW and this type of dialogue in Sunday school or the dialogue board approaches the types of faults the pharisees fell into.

[Nofear]

I have only my experience to go off of. We could not issue a recommendation for baptism if an investigator is drinking decaf. Who here has gotten a temple recommend, after full disclosure, to the SP and Bishop that they drink Decaf coffee or tea? So far everyone is dodging my challenge/question and just telling me I am uninformed.

I don't know anybody personally who uses, but I suspect in most cases the temple recommend interviewer would (strongly) encourage the member to abstain and sign the recommend anyway. Nevertheless, because there is no formal policy in place I fully expect that there will be variances of opinion by mission presidents, bishops, and stake presidents. And because there is no formal written policy readily available, you are asking for proof that simply isn't available short of getting a written letter from our current Office of the First Presidency.

[KevinG]

The first and last Bishop I asked about de-caf counseled against it byu saying "I personally don't feel it is appropriate". His answer was given in a way I didn't feel like he would dictate my own interpretation but also in a way that showed he didn't feel it was consistent with the spirit and letter of the WoW. I didn't feel the need to ask the question again or a need to test his counsel.

[Storm Rider]

Having been raised in a strict LDS household, caffeine in all of its evil forms was absolutely forbidden. Hot or cold, it didn’t matter. Evil was evil. This strict adherence of avoiding caffeinated beverages made perfect sense to me during my formative years. After all, wasn’t it the caffeine content in the drink that God forbid and not the temperature?

Well something changed in the 70’s and 80’s. Little by little the standard eroded… soon the avoidance of cold caffeinated beverages was no longer frowned upon within the church…consuming cold caffeine became a personal choice. Soon active church members everywhere were seen in public ordering and consuming cold caffeine laden cola drinks.

I consumed my first caffeine beverage, a Dr. Pepper, as an adult in my mid 20’s. This soon morphed into experimenting with other previously forbidden caffeine drinks such as the formerly evil Coke and Pepsi. I eventually settled on my cold caffeine beverage of choice…Diet Pepsi.

Jump ahead 20 years…

I’m on a vacation to visit a never-Mormon cousin back east. While out for dinner he takes note that I ordered a Diet Pepsi. Knowing that I was LDS, this seeming compromise of his perception of LDS standards came as a complete surprise to him. It took him a few days to even get the courage to broach the subject. But finally after watching me drink Diet Pepsi on several other occasions he finally asked me a simple question. “Craig, I’ve noticed that you drink Diet Pepsi…but you’ve refused my repeated offers for some coffee at breakfast… (then he dropped the bomb)…why is it ok for Mormons to consume cold caffeine but not hot caffeine?”

He caught me completely off guard, I didn’t have a good answer for him…and I kind of stumbled in trying to offer him a less than adequate answer…suggesting that I hadn’t really thought about it and that although it used to be outlawed…it is now ok. This answer was unsatisfying to both of us. Rather than being a missionary moment for me…his questions began a spiral into cognitive dissonance for me.

Prior to his question, I had never analyzed the inherent conflict of the LDS position regarding caffeine consumption. If caffeine is the problem…then way isn’t caffeine to be avoided in all of its forms…no matter the temperature? But…on the surface…it appeared that it wasn’t the caffeine but its temperature that presented the problem.

I had simply accepted that the church no longer found evil the consumption of cold caffeine and filled that exception in the Word of Wisdom by drinking Pepsi products when it was no longer prohibited, ignoring the obvious double standard.

My cousin’s question exposed the conflict in the Word of Wisdom that had prior to that very moment totally escaped my conscience.

So can anyone help me understand the inherent conflict apparently created by the cold vs hot caffeine dilemma?

The disonance you are feeling comes from a misunderstanding of the Word of Wisdom. No where in it does it address caffeine; caffeine consumption has nothing to do with the WofW! Yes, I know that some leaders of the Church have spoken about this, but it does not change the fact that avoiding stimulants is outside the boundaries of our obligation to obey the WofW.

We avoid coffee, tea, alcohol, and tobacco. We do this because the Church currently demands it of the members. It is not a celestial law; it belongs strictly to this mortal existence and will pass as soon as the Savior returns to partake of the fruit of the vine with the saints.

I find this rather pharisitical position most common among the saints in Utah and those Utah saints transplanted elsewhere. It is a sad and foolish tradition that was started by leaders that followed the dictates of their own human mind rather than the dictates of the Holy Spirit. I realize that this is a rather strong position that some will find offensive; however, given the fact that leaders/prophets have speculated erroneously I must assume that they are just men and at times act as men rather than the mouthpiece of God.

[Storm Rider]

With all due respect....you are completely misinformed on this particular issue...decaf coffee consumption has NEVER been a deterrent to acquiring a temple recommend.

No, (s)he is not misinformed. Coffee is the issue not caffeine. IF a bishop is passing on someone who is drinking decaf coffee he is incorrectly implementing the doctrines of the Church. Caffeine has nothing to do with the WofW.

[krose]

No where in it does it address caffeine; caffeine consumption has nothing to do with the WofW!

And nowhere in the words "hot drinks" does it address something such as iced tea (or even better, green tea ice cream, which is neither hot nor a drink).

It is a sad and foolish tradition that was started by leaders that followed the dictates of their own human mind rather than the dictates of the Holy Spirit.

It is perfectly reasonable and logical to look for something that two banned substances have in common, and then guess that the reason for their prohibition must be their common active ingredient.

I'm going to go ahead and take a bit of offense on behalf of my faithful relatives, as well as my former faithful self, at being called "pharisaical" for taking the very reasonable approach of avoiding all caffeine based on this logical assumption. We applied the same logic in avoiding all alcohol, which is also not specified (it says "wine" and "strong drink" specifically, not "alcohol").