Cold Caffeine Vs Hot Caffeine

[Craig Paxton]

Why that is not in the WOW. Drinking caffeine is not the issue it is Coffee and Tea, that is the issue.

The Lord has forbidden the LDS from drinking it. The question is "Are you going to follow the Lord's commands"?

Interesting perspective...Yet if it is coffee and tea that are the issue and not the caffeine...why can an individual drink de-caffeinated coffee and still get a temple recommend...IF as you claim it is the coffee?

Seems to me that it is after all the caffeine...and it appear to be the temperature of that caffeine that is in question.

Interesting however how you have nuanced the WoW to fit your particular perspective...

[Nathair/|\]

I have always been taught that decaf coffee is forbidden as are things like frappuchinos and iced tea.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Interesting perspective...Yet if it is coffee and tea that are the issue and not the caffeine...why can an individual drink de-caffeinated coffee and still get a temple recommend...IF as you claim it is the coffee?

I am not aware that you can. You are going to see the SP right (Or is that Questing Beast that is)? Tell him you drink decaf and see what he says. I bet you don't get a recommend. When on my mission people had to stop drinking coffee and tea even if it was decaf. I am not aware of any changes to that.

Seems to me that it is after all the caffeine...and it appear to be the temperature of that caffeine that is in question.

We shall see.

Interesting however how you have nuanced the WoW to fit your particular perspective...

Actually in this particular instance I did a "letter of the law" following. The spirit of the law forbids any addicting substance and that includes caffeine, chocolate, and a whole host of other things.

Edited June 23, 2011 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I have always been taught that decaf coffee is forbidden as are things like frappuchinos and iced tea.

Me too, any one drinking this stuff, tell your bishop and SP that you drink them and see if your don't get your TR pulled.

[LeSellers]

I have always been taught that decaf coffee is forbidden as are things like frappuchinos and iced tea.

As have I, they along with iced tea/coffee. (So much for the "cold caffeine" position.)

I avoid caffeine for two reasons:

First, it's a powerful drug. I've seen caffeine addicts who have been forced for one reason or another, to forgo their fix, especially in the morning. The result is far from pretty, to the point of their being a danger to themselves and others around them. Addicted soliders, armed soldiers, are not fit for polite human company in such a condition.

Second, and more important, because, imagining we Saints have been forbidden to drink caffeine, someone might use me as an excuse to lose (or not gain) a testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ were he to see me drinking it, cold or hot.

Lehi

Edited June 23, 2011 by LeSellers

[Jigglysaint]

So, who here drinks mild drinks made from rye, barley, and other grains?

(Stepping back to see the raise of hands)

In my mission, the only safe thing to drink was Coke or Pepsi.

Bernard

I drink malt beverages on a regular basis. There are sweet malts, and there are ones that actually more closely resemble beer. I'll also confess that sometimes I will drink non-alcoholic beer that has like the 0.05 percent alcohol, though I will admit that sometimes even that small amount can somehow have an impact on my spirituality(something just doesn't seem right). However, there are 0,0% kinds out there and they are pretty good.

[Craig Paxton]

So, then Mr. Cr@ig P@xton, take your pick.

@@@hhhh...s@me @ne Kn@ws me...

Well here is what I think...if anyone cares...

When Joseph Smith wrote the Word of Wisdom he was responding to Emma's complaints and he saw in the temperance movements in Ohio an opportunity. He never lived the Word of Wisdom in his lifetime and took it as the suggestion that he meant it to be. From the time of his death and culminating with the Heber J. Grant administration...the WoW went through an evolution. Under Brigham Young's tenure the pioneers were instructed to bring a supply of coffee on their westward trek and he built a brewery to brew beer upon arrival in SLC.

With each subsequent church president...the WoW became more and more strict until by the time of Heber J. Grant and the advent of prohibition, all alcohol had become banned and the consumption of tea and coffee became codified to receive a temple recommend.

Coffee is an innocuous substance that is neither harmful to one’s health unless one has a low tolerance to caffeine…but it does offer many healthy antioxidants and has been shown to reduce some cancers.

I personally do believe that caffeine is not the issue any more (although through the evolution that the WoW has undergone it certainly was at one time) because coffee does not offer any health risks abstinence from it has morphed into a mark of faith and sacrifice….a measuring stick. The church could change abstinence from coffee with an abstinence of potato chips…and it wouldn’t matter. In other words it is NOT the food/drink one is abstaining from that is the issue …it is that you are abstaining from something. Coffee just happens to be the item that is abstained from and faithful Mormon’s use this as a yard stick to measure obedience.

It also helps define and separate Mormon’s from the rest of the world. But let’s get a few things straight; tea and coffee are NOT harmful in any way shape or form. Wine, and some alcoholic drinks in moderation have many health benefits. Meat eaten out of season is not harmful, barley drinks (beer is the only one I’m aware of) in moderation is not harmful.

So the bottom line, the Word of Wisdom is not really about health…its about creating a uniform group, control, sacrifice and conformity in the Mormon community.

Hey you asked me to pick…

Edited June 23, 2011 by Craig Paxton

[bluebell]

Here's a relevant footnote in an article by Michael Ash:

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2000_Up_in_Smoke.html#en135 (footnote 135)

I'm wondering what 'deleterious drugs' are? Anyone know?

[LeSellers]

I'm wondering what 'deleterious drugs' are? Anyone know?

I don't recall which ones, but, in decaffenating coffee (and tea, too, I presume), there are any number of solvents used to carry off the caffeine. Some of them are nasty. One that is not is water, but it is not very effective, so there remains some caffeine. In the other cases (i.e., with the other solvents), the solvent remains. So, "deleterious drugs" would include the caffeine residue in water-treated decaf and the solvents in the others.

Or so I'd think.

Lehi

[cinepro]

Looking at some of the health theories floating around at the time Section 89 was conceived (temperance movement, etc.), I am convinced that the term "hot drinks" means exactly what it says it does. It's entirely about the temperature of the beverage.

Many people at the time believed that ingesting high-temperature drinks upset the balance of the body's 'humors.' Coffee and tea were mentioned as the hot drinks that people consumed. The fact that they both contain caffeine is purely coincidental, but it was a logical conclusion for members to make. I know everyone I grew up around assumed it, and we meticulously avoided caffeinated drinks of any temperature.

Before this discussion goes any further, everyone should go and read this article (PDF):

The Word of Wisdom in Early Nineteenth-Century Perspective

The article points out that not only were "hot drinks" thought to be bad for people based solely on their temperature (so that included soup and hot chocolate), but cold drinks were as well. So we really dodged a bullet on that one.

It was commonly held that the appropriate temperature of food and drink was very little above or below the heat of the blood, possibly adjusted up a little in winter and down in summer. Under some circumstances excessively low temperatures were held by many authorities to be as dangerous as high ones; Combe thought they were potentially more so. It was well known to him - and reported as well by many others - "that a copious draught of cold water, taken in a state of perspiration and fatigue, is often instantly fatal."

Where some authorities might condemn the Mormon standard, therefore, was not in its denunciation of hot drinks, but rather in its failure to include a warning against very cold ones as well.

p.55

It will really help you understand Section 89 in its original context.

But since I look at Section 89 as Word of Wisdom 1.0, and our current version as 5.6, I don't necessarily get my knickers in a twist over how our modern interpretations jibe with a version that was given to people with an early 19th century understanding of health and diet.

Edited June 23, 2011 by cinepro

[Bond...James Bond]

If the ban is not about caffeine, why can't I get a Coke at BYU football game?

They have pictures of you Jaybear. You should wear a mask next time. You might get one "under the counter".

[Craig Paxton]

It will really help you understand Section 89 in its original context.

But since I look at Section 89 as Word of Wisdom 1.0, and our current version as 5.6, I don't necessarily get my knickers in a twist over how our modern interpretations jibe with a version that was given to people with an early 19th century understanding of health and diet.

The Word of Wisdom as described in Section 89 is NOT practiced by the modern church... In fact the church is quite selective on which parts it actually follows. Many parts are emphasized while many more are completely ignored. Too bad God didn’t just tell Joseph to boil water before drinking it and to wash his hands before eating meals…now that would have been words of wisdom.

[cinepro]

The Word of Wisdom as described in Section 89 is NOT practiced by the modern church... In fact the church is quite selective on which parts it actually follows.

I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Nofear]

The Word of Wisdom as described in Section 89 is NOT practiced by the modern church... In fact the church is quite selective on which parts it actually follows. Many parts are emphasized while many more are completely ignored. Too bad God didn’t just tell Joseph to boil water before drinking it and to wash his hands before eating meals…now that would have been words of wisdom.

A more accurate statement would be that the Word of Wisdom as described in Section 89 is not institutionally enforced in toto. Rather there are some baseline litmus tests, as it were. Nevertheless the Church encourages its membership to live a contemporary understanding of the advice found in Section 89. For example, from For the Strength of Youth:

The Lord has commanded you to take good care of your body. To do this, observe the Word of Wisdom, found in Doctrine and Covenants 89. Eat nutritious food, exercise regularly, and get enough sleep. When you do all these things, you remain free from harmful addictions and have control over your life. You gain the blessings of a healthy body, an alert mind, and the guidance of the Holy Ghost.

Let us not get all pharisaical about the Word of Wisdom.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The Word of Wisdom as described in Section 89 is NOT practiced by the modern church... In fact the church is quite selective on which parts it actually follows. Many parts are emphasized while many more are completely ignored. Too bad God didn’t just tell Joseph to boil water before drinking it and to wash his hands before eating meals…now that would have been words of wisdom.

It is important to realize that the WoW was originally not given as a command. Latter, certain parts were commanded to be followed. I would say that section 89 is indeed a word of wisdom when one considers the first few verses given.

[KevinG]

Craig - instead of picking nits at those who comment here why don't you ask God how the Word of Wisdom applies to you? As I said before - the general guidelines put forth in the Doctrine and Covenants are good for us (there is not debate about that) and the non-doctrinal specifics of interpretation through the years or what your parents or ward members thought are not a good basis for accepting or rejecting the revelations.

The WofW is a starting point (it says so in the revelation itself) for those who want to be Saints. It is not an ending point or all comprehensive health regulation.

Put the straw man down and ask God how it applies to you. There is where you will find revelation and safety in keeping the commandments.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Let us not get all pharisaical about the Word of Wisdom.

<--------- (Guilty)

[Doug the Hutt]

...

So the bottom line, the Word of Wisdom is not really about health…its about creating a uniform group, control, sacrifice and conformity in the Mormon community.

Hey you asked me to pick…

You have chosen.....@ccur@tely. H@ve @ nice d@y!

[Deborah]

If the ban is not about caffeine, why can't I get a Coke at BYU football game?

You can in the Joseph Smith building cafe and the Lion House.

[frankenstein]

You can in the Joseph Smith building cafe and the Lion House.

but you can't at the MTC or BYU campus vending machines.

[KevinG]

but you can't at the MTC or BYU campus vending machines.

You can't serve red punch either. But that has to do with the carpet cleaning bill.

[Deborah]

I think the church leaders, certainly at the local level, have gone through various interpretations as new information has come out. For example there was at one time a great hooplah about the danger of caffeine (and make no mistake for some people it can be very harmful, ie if you have high blood pressure or heart problems) and so it was assumed because coffee and tea had caffeine that was the reason for the ban (and oh my, wasn't that great that the Prophet had such foreknowledge); and if they are bad then let's carry that over to soft drinks. I don't think Joseph ever thought there would be such a debate about this.

However, I find it quite significant that now the question is only asked as a general question of whether you keep the WOW. I think everyone can agree that tobacco and alcohol are harmful and no one questions that and I know many non-LDS who refrain from these nowadays. However, keep in mind that the WOW also says "wheat for man" yet we know there are people who are highly allergic to wheat and can't have it in any form. This is where the "wisdom" comes in. It's not as cut and dried as some like to make it out to be. However, I think we need to stop rationalizing and just examine whether what we are taking into our bodies is going to contribute to our health, have zero impact either way or definitely harm us, depending on how our bodies react.

[Deborah]

but you can't at the MTC or BYU campus vending machines.

I can kind of understand that given the harm of sodas to teens who probably don't eat right anyway.

[Craig Paxton]

A more accurate statement would be that the Word of Wisdom as described in Section 89 is not institutionally enforced in toto. Rather there are some baseline litmus tests, as it were. Nevertheless the Church encourages its membership to live a contemporary understanding of the advice found in Section 89. For example, from For the Strength of Youth:

Let us not get all pharisaical about the Word of Wisdom.

On my bended knee's...bowing up and down...arms and hands extended towards you....very well stated

[bookofmormontruth]

but you can't at the MTC or BYU campus vending machines.

Oh, you didn't read from your bookmarked websites that the LDS Church owns 80% of the company Coke?

Therefore, it is a conflict of interest to sell it at the MTC or BYU.