Bin Laden's Dead

[Mudcat]

I thought the scenes of cheering crowds in Washington and New York were very distasteful. No different to the cheering Palestinians after the 9/11 atrocity. This did not show America in a good light.

I get what you are saying here Alan. I have been on the fence a bit about this.

It's hard to separate the taking of human life from the things that particular life stood for, supported and represented.

I don't think we should cheer because a man has died.

But I do think a blow against all the things that he held to, such as murder, religous oppression, indoctrinating people to a regime that would encourage them to take the lives of those they were intolerant to at the expense of their own, has been struck by a free people who did not sit idly by. In that, I think there is nothing wrong with cheer for that.

[Nathair/|\]

And thus BCSpace falls into his mantra of what is official doctrine . . .

The people of Ammon in the Book of Mormon are my heroes, the ones who buried their weapons of war and suffered themselves to be slain rather than take them up again when threatened.

Also, Hezekiah in the Old Testament, who trusted the Lord, and Lord blessed him by sending His angel to destroy the army of Sennecherib.

And I am left to conclude that a state of war is that state of perfection to which BCSpace aspires.

My hero has always been Captain Moroni

Alma 48:17

17 Yea, verily, verily I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like unto Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever; yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men.

Here is his policy, and I think it reflects what BCSpace is getting at (If I misread him/her I apologize.)

Alma 43:46

46 And they were doing that which they felt was the duty which they owed to their God; for the Lord had said unto them, and also unto their fathers, that: Inasmuch as ye are not guilty of the first offense, neither the second, ye shall not suffer yourselves to be slain by the hands of your enemies.

[cinepro]

I thought the scenes of cheering crowds in Washington and New York were very distasteful. No different to the cheering Palestinians after the 9/11 atrocity. This did not show America in a good light.

Are you saying that the killing of Osama was the moral equivalent of killing almost 3,000 civilians? Neither is more or less worthy of celebration than the other?

If the US had accidentally (or intentionally) dropped a bomb that killed 3,000 Pakistani citizens and Americans took to the streets cheering, you might have a point. But in this case, I think you're stretching it.

[cinepro]

How do you feel about the cheering crowds after the Battle of Endor?

Well, we need to keep this in mind... (starts at 1:30)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRGhXHM1448&feature=related

"Any contractor working on that Death Star knew the risk involved."

[Avatar4321]

The nice thing about the LDS Church is we don't stop at the Sermon on the Mount or even the NT. We accept all of Jesus' teachings in all the scriptures including those of his modern day prophets including GBH who in Conference put his stamp of approval on recent events.

His stamp of approval? I find it hard to believe that President Hinckley did any such thing, especially since President Monson has been the Prophet for several years.

[Sleeper Cell]

I thought the scenes of cheering crowds in Washington and New York were very distasteful. No different to the cheering Palestinians after the 9/11 atrocity. This did not show America in a good light.

No different? The Palestinians were cheering the murder of innocent people. The Washington and New York crowds were cheering the killing of a mass murderer.

I did not join the cheering crowds, nor did I spend much time watching them on TV. However, I am glad that justice was finally done. I would have preferred that he be captured and brought to trial, but apparently that was not possible.

Killing him was not “merely” an act of justice (or revenge, if you prefer). By all accounts, he had dedicated the rest of his life to murdering more innocent people. Killing him prevented him from committing additional murders.

[Jeff K.]

I am glad he is dead. Not because I wish the man dead, but his influence, in my view will be curtailed. For years he was seen as being almost immortal by some of these extremist groups. He inspired them to do more evil and greater evil. His death limits his ability to increase the evil in the world through his actions. Some may take the martyrdom and run with it, but in the back of their mind they will realize that they too can be found and that the US will not stop looking.

It does not mean the war is over, but I see it as the equivalent of Hirohito being shot down in WWII (instead of Yamamoto). The war of attrition (which all wars are) will become more difficult for all those enemy forces involved.

[Libs]

I thought the scenes of cheering crowds in Washington and New York were very distasteful. No different to the cheering Palestinians after the 9/11 atrocity. This did not show America in a good light.

I disagree with this. Palestinians were cheering the death of thousands of innocent people. I think that's very different from cheering the death of one man, who caused those innocent deaths...and, who was very likely plotting to kill even more innocent people. I think we do an injustice, with that kind of comparison, to those who are, simply, very happy to see justice finally done.

Ye that love the Lord, hate evil, Ps. 97:10

[Mark Beesley]

The persistent disagreement with Alan about comparing Palestinians and Americans cheering is rather myopic. It assumes that we can get into the heads of the Palestians and discern what they were cheering for, as well as the Americans who were cheering. If one looks at in a broader sense, both instances are very similar in that they demonstrate poor taste.

The groups seemingly were cheering what they saw as a successful strike at an enemy. The number of dead was not determinative of the elation. I suspect the Palestian celebrations would have been the same if the 9/11 attacks had taken place at a time when the buildings were empty and no one had died. Indeed, as a good friend (and an Arab) pointed out to me, it did not appear that the attacks on 9/11 were calculated to cause maximum deaths. But the Palestinians should have recognized that celebrating the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians was in poor taste.

As for the mindset of the Americans who elected to cheer the killing of Bin Laden, I find it more difficult to justify simply because it was more personal. The killing of Bin Laden is likely an insignificant event insofar as the war on terror is concerned. There were terrorists before Bin Laden, and there will be terrorists following his death. The only real cause I can see for someone to celebrate is the feeling that somehow justice has been served, and we have had our revenge. Whether one feels that justice has been served, or revenge justifiably exacted, the celebration was in poor taste.

So, while I understand the hesitancy of some to compare Palestinian revelers to American revelers, I think a broader view supports the conclusion that both celebrations were in poor taste.

[Ceeboo]

I suspect the Palestian celebrations would have been the same if the 9/11 attacks had taken place at a time when the buildings were empty and no one had died.

I suspect you are dead wrong.

Indeed, as a good friend (and an Arab) pointed out to me, it did not appear that the attacks on 9/11 were calculated to cause maximum deaths.

It appears you are, again, dead wrong.

But the Palestinians should have recognized that celebrating the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians was in poor taste.

Ya think?

As for the mindset of the Americans who elected to cheer the killing of Bin Laden, I find it more difficult to justify simply because it was more personal.

Whaaaaaat?

You have got to be kidding me!

So, while I understand the hesitancy of some to compare Palestinian revelers to American revelers

I have no hesitancy at all. They are CLEARLY not comparable.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[Avatar4321]

Of course celebrating the death of others is in poor tastes.

We have way too much violence in our hearts as a society.

[WalkerW]

How do you feel about the cheering crowds after the Battle of Endor?

Damn good.

[WalkerW]

Well, we need to keep this in mind... (starts at 1:30)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRGhXHM1448&feature=related

"Any contractor working on that Death Star knew the risk involved."

You are absolutely awesome.

I'm glad someone else on this thread has seen Clerks.

[Sleeper Cell]

Indeed, as a good friend (and an Arab) pointed out to me, it did not appear that the attacks on 9/11 were calculated to cause maximum deaths.

CFR

But the Palestinians should have recognized that celebrating the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians was in poor taste.

“Poor taste?” Cheering mass murder is morally despicable. It is not merely a breach of etiquette.

As for the mindset of the Americans who elected to cheer the killing of Bin Laden, I find it more difficult to justify simply because it was more personal.

You find it more difficult to justify the Americans cheering than the Palestinians cheering? I hope that I am misunderstanding you!

Suppose one of these Americans was the widow of one the 9-11 victims? That would make it even more personal. Would you then find it even more difficult to justify the elation of this widow than you would the elation of the Palestinians who cheered the murder of her husband?

[Messenger]

Of course celebrating the death of others is in poor tastes.

Really? Even when they put up thier own firefight in a fight to the death? Poor Taste? Nah, grab some nachos, pull up that recliner to the TV and you'll feel right as rain!

Now doesnt that look good????

[Jeff K.]

The persistent disagreement with Alan about comparing Palestinians and Americans cheering is rather myopic. It assumes that we can get into the heads of the Palestians and discern what they were cheering for, as well as the Americans who were cheering. If one looks at in a broader sense, both instances are very similar in that they demonstrate poor taste.

..........

As for the mindset of the Americans who elected to cheer the killing of Bin Laden, I find it more difficult to justify simply because it was more personal. The killing of Bin Laden is likely an insignificant event insofar as the war on terror is concerned. There were terrorists before Bin Laden, and there will be terrorists following his death. The only real cause I can see for someone to celebrate is the feeling that somehow justice has been served, and we have had our revenge. Whether one feels that justice has been served, or revenge justifiably exacted, the celebration was in poor taste.

So, while I understand the hesitancy of some to compare Palestinian revelers to American revelers, I think a broader view supports the conclusion that both celebrations were in poor taste.

I disagree. The celebrations are one in which they celebrate the specific deaths of people. However the cultures in the area tend to dehumanize their enemies, so it becomes easier to celebrate the hit against non military targets, the most vulnerable of targets.

Should they be celebrating now?

It is unfortunate that someone who targets civiiian populations and has killed more Muslims than any other group would be celebrated by the selfsame group. It reflects the amount of growth the culture needs to develop in order to be truly humanitarian.

The groups seemingly were cheering what they saw as a successful strike at an enemy. The number of dead was not determinative of the elation. I suspect the Palestian celebrations would have been the same if the 9/11 attacks had taken place at a time when the buildings were empty and no one had died. Indeed, as a good friend (and an Arab) pointed out to me, it did not appear that the attacks on 9/11 were calculated to cause maximum deaths. But the Palestinians should have recognized that celebrating the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians was in poor taste.

What they are celebrating is the amount of pain be it civilian or military that was caused. Your suspicion that somehow an empty building would be equally celebrated is more than a bit silly and without foundation. The attacks on 9-11 were specifically a return to a failed terrorist act and the number of deaths was less determinative than the amount of terror they sought to incite. Your Arab friend is foolish if he believes that a small number of insignificant deaths would have produced the same level of terror as a large number of deaths. He seems willfully blind to the idea that the attacks were done to elicit the maximum amount of terror. If he is comfortable with that, or somehow seeks to show a humanitarian point of view for such groups, he fails in both logic and common sense.

We as a nation do our best not to kill, we as a nation have gone to great strides and measures to move away from carpet bombing, and massive civilian loss of life. The killers out there know this and use the civilians as shields. All the while sending the young to die for them. bin Ladin hid behind civilian populations, even as he attacked those selfsame populations of those he hated. It seems appropriate that he would grab a woman upon his death to act as a shield. It reflects that utter contempt those people have for the life of others. Apparently your Arab friend is blithley unaware of that contempt, or perhaps takes part in it.

The local imam agrees with me on that point. The masjid he runs would have condemned the attacks and not attempted to justify them.

[Mark Beesley]

CFR

My reference is my Arab friend, and I'm not giving you his name.

I'll end with this quote that my daughter-in-law posted on her Facebook page:

I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.

Martin Luther King

Note: While this quote is popularly attributed ot Dr. KIng, it has not been verified that he actually said it. Nevertheless, I agree with the sentiment.

Update: Apparently a Facebook user wrote the first sentence, then quoted Dr. King. Her sentiments got somewhat garbled in the transmission. Read the story here.

[cdowis]

A possible sidenote:

It would be interesting if the million dollar mansion were built by dollars from the American taxpayer. We have given billions of dollars to Pakistan.

[cinepro]

Indeed, as a good friend (and an Arab) pointed out to me, it did not appear that the attacks on 9/11 were calculated to cause maximum deaths.

Two planes, early in their cross-continental flights and thus full of fuel, are flown into two of the tallest office towers in the world just at the time of a weekday morning when people are arriving to work.

Honestly, if they were going for "maximum deaths", I'm not sure what they would have done differently.

And I'm not sure your friend being an "Arab" lends credibility to the objectivity of his opinion on the subject.

Edit to add quote from Osama:

Bin Laden had never before claimed or accepted responsibility for terrorist attacks. In a videotape found in the southern Afghan city of Kandahar weeks after the attacks, he firmly took responsibility for - and reveled in - the horror of Sept. 11. "We calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower," he said. "We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three or four floors. I was the most optimistic of them all."

[ELF1024]

In the long run, unlike Hitler's death which more or less ended the Third Reich; I don't think that the death of Osama Bin Laden is going to amount to much.

Al Qaeda is much more like the mythical hydra; and we just pissed it off by removing one of it's heads. There are sure to be 100 more heads to grow back where that one came from.

The Gadianton robbers were not wiped out by decapiting the leadership, neither will Al Qaeda be destoyed in such a manner.

[BCSpace]

After dying a grizzly death in a fire fight, Osama made his way to the Pearly Gates. George Washington met him.

He slapped him across the face and yelled, "How dare you try to destroy the nation I helped conceive!"

Patrick Henry approached, punched him in the nose and shouted, "You wanted to end our liberties but you failed!"

James Madison followed, kicked him in the knees and said, "This is why I allowed our government to provide for the common defense!"

Thomas Jefferson was next, beat Osama with a long cane and snarled "It was Evil men like you who inspired me to write the Declaration of Independence."

The beatings and thrashings continued as George Mason, James Monroe and 66 other early Americans unleashed their anger on the terrorist leader.

As Osama lay writhing in pain, an Angel appeared.

Osama yelled, "This is not what you promised me."

The Angel replied, "I told you there would be 72 Virginians waiting for you in Heaven. What did you think I said?"

[Rivers]

Obama got Osama!!!!!

[Rivers]

After dying a grizzly death in a fire fight, Osama made his way to the Pearly Gates. George Washington met him.

He slapped him across the face and yelled, "How dare you try to destroy the nation I helped conceive!"

Patrick Henry approached, punched him in the nose and shouted, "You wanted to end our liberties but you failed!"

James Madison followed, kicked him in the knees and said, "This is why I allowed our government to provide for the common defense!"

Thomas Jefferson was next, beat Osama with a long cane and snarled "It was Evil men like you who inspired me to write the Declaration of Independence."

The beatings and thrashings continued as George Mason, James Monroe and 66 other early Americans unleashed their anger on the terrorist leader.

As Osama lay writhing in pain, an Angel appeared.

Osama yelled, "This is not what you promised me."

The Angel replied, "I told you there would be 72 Virginians waiting for you in Heaven. What did you think I said?"

HAHAHAHA!!!!

[ELF1024]

HAHAHAHA!!!!

May all of his 72 "virgins" look like Rosie O'Donnell and have more than their fair share of teeth...

[BCSpace]

Of course celebrating the death of others is in poor tastes.

We have way too much violence in our hearts as a society.

I disagree. I think we've gone so far in the other (especially PC) direction that we're nearly incapable of defending our society from the immorality and violence being foisted upon us. Why should it take a Pearl Harbor or a 9/11 to rouse us to a lively sense of our duties and responsibilites?