Think Big

[Questing Beast]

The Moroni 8:18 thread is a nice poser: why did Joseph Smith's theology near "the end" morph into a finite one, when he obviously, previously, taught an infinite one, or at least a partial theology that was implicitly infinite?

Anyway that's not really what I wanted to ask.

First of all, my theology has been undergoing rapid adjustments - all good, imho - in recent years. And believe it, my personal theology far outstrips any dogmatic one I have come across. This seems like the right way to go. The problem I was always having before is that any dogma imposes built in limits on "God". Even theologies that use concepts like Moroni 8:18 are more like platitudes, when it comes to application. For instance, "God" is infinite and unchangeable, but only "speaks" to masses of people through oracles/prophets: who thus hold the power of life and death spiritually. Does this seem right? We are all created differently; yet why do we have to pass through the same singular pigeon hole to get into heaven?

This is perverse to me. We have this 'satiable sapience and the virtually infinite imagination to go along with it. But for some reason "God" is a human. We are created to look like "God". But is this the biggest concept for "God" that we can come up with? Isn't that what we should be trying to do all the time? Imagine the BIGGEST concept for "God" that you can possibly imagine! And if the dogma you get fed on Sunday and in the scriptures is smaller than what you can imagine, what does that mean?

For myself, "God" is an infinite Existence that causes space-time and everything manifesting because of it. I know that "God" is eternally increasing its creations within space-time; that laws are not immutable, much less finite in number; that everything is established within its own framework of laws; and that chaos is also a manifestation of "God": and bottom line: I canNOT imagine anything impossible. If my mind can conceive of it, then it is not only possible, it has been done somewhere, sometime (probably just not anywhere near this earth).

I've read on this forum for a few weeks now. And I have to say that some people are just flat out in denial about "how mind bogglingly BIG GOD IS". They want a conceivable, finite, understandable god: not an infinitely complex Cause of Existence in the First Place that never ends, yet comprehends all of infinitely expanding creation in a single NOW state of awareness - right down to every iota of particulate matter that makes up the manifesting universe. There is NOTHING that "God" does not perceive continuously.

Now, is that concept for "God" the start of something BIG enough for anyone else?

I'd be more than interested in reading "your" thoughts on the matter of personal theologies. Do your theologies far transcend the dogma of your religious inculcation from scripture and the pulpit? Are you simply light years ahead of what you are told to believe?...

[CV75]

Anyway that's not really what I wanted to ask.

Applying and becoming the truth always transcends God

[LDS Guy 1986]

I definitely have non orthodox interpretations of sown scriptures, I believe the idea that we are dependent on God after exaltation is not scriptural, neither do I believe we should worship Jesus directly we are only to worship the Father through the Son IMO, I also believe that Christ was born just as mortal as we are and received his immortality on the mount of transfiguration.

I feel that the scriptures support my beliefs and openly acknowledge that this is my personal theory and it could be wrong but no more wrong than any other interpretation of scriptures.

As far as being "light years ahead of the Church" I think this is dangerous terrain to be treading. The Church has the right to revelation that protects us from Satan's clever plots to deceive us, ultimately if you start rejecting the council of the Prophets and decide you can forge ahead on a better path you are risking disaster in my opinion.

The beaten path is not as exciting as the unexplored but the unexplored contains many pitfalls and traps that have yet to be explored and charted.

A great talk on this was given by an Apostle in General Conference. He said when he served in WWII, there was many times they had to cross minefields. To cross a minefield is extremely dangerous, one must strictly follow the outlined course, any deviation to the left or the right usually desired in tragic loss of lives. Of course following the path that someone else presents us takes great faith and trust. We had to have faith that they will not lead us down dangerous paths.

I can attest to this from my service in Iraq, we were ordered to not wear the toft fitting under armor T-shirts when we were off post in convoy. Many thought this was a silly order and ignored it (myself included) one day a roadside bomb ignited a trucks fuel tank and the cabin filled with flames the soldier who ignored his orders now has that under armor t shirt permanently fuse to his skin. We only though of our comfort not of the potential hazard the t shirts posed to us, high command saw this and order us to not wear the shirt outside of base. People ignored and now someone is injured far worse than he would of been if he had obeyed.

These same stories also apply to the doctrine and guidance we are given by the Prophets and the Church. They are there to help us not hurt us, yes some of them seem to be useless or unneeded but that is because of Father in Heaven sees things that we can't.

Differing interpretations and theories are fine, as long as they do not lead you from the straight and narrow path to eternal life that our Church is showing us, in my opinion.

Disagreement isn't wrong, letting disagreement lead you to not sustain the General Authorities is very dangerous and probably the deceptions of Satan.

[Nofear]

Do your theologies far transcend the dogma of your religious inculcation from scripture and the pulpit? Are you simply light years ahead of what you are told to believe?...

It has been long been my motto that one should know more than what is presented in Church. The official doctrines of the Church are not the bounds and limits of truth that we should know (and that's (informal) Church doctrine too). That said, if one finds oneself adopting views which are in contradiction to the doctrines of the Church then one can know they are on the wrong track.

It is also quite a conceit to suggest one is "light years ahead". A good part of what I believe which "transcends" official Church doctrine is probably wrong. Obviously I wouldn't think so otherwise I wouldn't hold those opinions. But paradoxically/impossibly I believe I'm wrong, in some of them, nonetheless. As Alice and then Queen said,

"Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things."

"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."

Alice in Wonderland.

[SkepticTheist]

I believe in personal theologies, and not being "trammeled" as Joseph Smith put it, into having to believe things that don't make sense to me. As long as I keep my mouth shut in Church, I'm not setting myself up as a target. Besides, it is a matter of propriety anyway, to keep this junk out of Church. But so many people I know get so offended because they can't preach their personal doctrines in Elders Quorum. One friend of mine went inactive over it. But to me, he just doesn't get it.

I believe in getting personal revelation. I think our personal teacher is Jesus Christ. I believe in revering the Lord's anointed. I follow them by emulating the goodness of their lives, and having loyalty to them. I think I'm under covenant to be loyal. That doesn't mean I have to adopt their personal theologies and speculations that are not doctrines of the church, just because they have the keys. I am a cafeteria Mormon, fundamentally a TBM, that drinks and feasts deeply from the vast reservoir of information available to me from every source of truth possible. I am not so much an apologist as I am an independent Theologian, but my theology sometimes crosses over into Apologetics. But I don't to apologetics for the sake of doing apologetics the way some other people at FAIR do. I do Theology for the love of theology.

Only by doing this can one come to the knowledge of the truth on the particular subjects that one is interested in. As long as you don't set yourself up as a target for being accused of preaching false doctrine in Church, how can you go wrong? Many Church scholars publish some pretty wild stuff, so why can't I publish my own wild stuff? I can, and I have. I don't believe anything that I believe, or anything that I have written, fundamentally contradicts the basic doctrines of the Church. If I get talked to about it, or dragged into a Church court over what I have written, I simply submit to whatever their demands are, even if I have to pull my books down of Amazon and so forth. Oh well I guess. I know better than to challenge priesthood keys, even if those keys are abused in a manner of unrighteous dominion.

Yes, my theories far transcend what I was taught to believe, but I don't believe in spouting off speculation. I believe in doing research, and having well grounded educated guesses, that I try to get personal revelation on, which to me is much different than regular speculation.

Ed Goble

The Moroni 8:18 thread is a nice poser: why did Joseph Smith's theology near "the end" morph into a finite one, when he obviously, previously, taught an infinite one, or at least a partial theology that was implicitly infinite?

Anyway that's not really what I wanted to ask.

First of all, my theology has been undergoing rapid adjustments - all good, imho - in recent years. And believe it, my personal theology far outstrips any dogmatic one I have come across. This seems like the right way to go. The problem I was always having before is that any dogma imposes built in limits on "God". Even theologies that use concepts like Moroni 8:18 are more like platitudes, when it comes to application. For instance, "God" is infinite and unchangeable, but only "speaks" to masses of people through oracles/prophets: who thus hold the power of life and death spiritually. Does this seem right? We are all created differently; yet why do we have to pass through the same singular pigeon hole to get into heaven?

This is perverse to me. We have this 'satiable sapience and the virtually infinite imagination to go along with it. But for some reason "God" is a human. We are created to look like "God". But is this the biggest concept for "God" that we can come up with? Isn't that what we should be trying to do all the time? Imagine the BIGGEST concept for "God" that you can possibly imagine! And if the dogma you get fed on Sunday and in the scriptures is smaller than what you can imagine, what does that mean?

For myself, "God" is an infinite Existence that causes space-time and everything manifesting because of it. I know that "God" is eternally increasing its creations within space-time; that laws are not immutable, much less finite in number; that everything is established within its own framework of laws; and that chaos is also a manifestation of "God": and bottom line: I canNOT imagine anything impossible. If my mind can conceive of it, then it is not only possible, it has been done somewhere, sometime (probably just not anywhere near this earth).

I've read on this forum for a few weeks now. And I have to say that some people are just flat out in denial about "how mind bogglingly BIG GOD IS". They want a conceivable, finite, understandable god: not an infinitely complex Cause of Existence in the First Place that never ends, yet comprehends all of infinitely expanding creation in a single NOW state of awareness - right down to every iota of particulate matter that makes up the manifesting universe. There is NOTHING that "God" does not perceive continuously.

Now, is that concept for "God" the start of something BIG enough for anyone else?

I'd be more than interested in reading "your" thoughts on the matter of personal theologies. Do your theologies far transcend the dogma of your religious inculcation from scripture and the pulpit? Are you simply light years ahead of what you are told to believe?...

[Jason]

What is bigger than a God who knows every one ever born on Earth in all of its past and future better than they know themselves, who timed the births of each and every one of them with every completely accurately predicted event of the natural world and all of the actions of each of those already there and who would be there in the future in order to ensure that each was in the place and time that would give them a completely just test of their morality - serving each of them with a perfect choice between God's way and their own natural instincts that could be resolved either way by solely their choice?

And He has done this on countless worlds with countless individuals.

I find that pretty dang mind-boggling.

[BCSpace]

Does this seem right? We are all created differently; yet why do we have to pass through the same singular pigeon hole to get into heaven?

This is perverse to me. We have this 'satiable sapience and the virtually infinite imagination to go along with it. But for some reason "God" is a human. We are created to look like "God". But is this the biggest concept for "God" that we can come up with? Isn't that what we should be trying to do all the time? Imagine the BIGGEST concept for "God" that you can possibly imagine! And if the dogma you get fed on Sunday and in the scriptures is smaller than what you can imagine, what does that mean?

Well, if you are proposing that there are multiple roads to heaven, then I'd say you are sadly mistaken. To propose such is to propose a God who is a liar and a respector of persons or that God does not exist; take your pick. However, there certainly can be many roads leading to God's singular and unique road which then leads to heaven/salvation/exaltation.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Let me just answer the question posed in the thread title...

I do not suffer from an arrogance that causes me to think I know better than Christ and his Apostles.

[Deborah]

I am always a little amazed at those who think LDS doctrine limits God. The fact that he is subject to laws doesn't limit him; his knowledge of the laws of the universe is perfect and because of this he creates worlds, he enwraps intelligences in spiritual bodies, he allows the spiritual bodies to become mortal so that they can progress to become perfect beings as he is.

It seems to me the non-LDS world limits God by telling him he can no longer speak to man through prophets, that he doesn't have the power to exalt men to become like him or that he is less of a God because he obeys and understands the laws of the universe. We have superheros in comic books who have powers that defy the laws of nature; but can they exalt man or bring him joy and peace?

[LDS Guy 1986]

I am always a little amazed at those who think LDS doctrine limits God. The fact that he is subject to laws doesn't limit him; his knowledge of the laws of the universe is perfect and because of this he creates worlds, he enwraps intelligences in spiritual bodies, he allows the spiritual bodies to become mortal so that they can progress to become perfect beings as he is.

It seems to me the non-LDS world limits God by telling him he can no longer speak to man through prophets, that he doesn't have the power to exalt men to become like him or that he is less of a God because he obeys and understands the laws of the universe. We have superheros in comic books who have powers that defy the laws of nature; but can they exalt man or bring him joy and peace?

God in a way is limited by the law since he is perfect and will not break the law ever, but seeing that he is also the creator of the law, the limits of the law are in place upon him by his own will. So it isn't a limit as much as self restraint, IMO.

Does this make sense?

[LDS Guy 1986]

Let me just answer the question posed in the thread title...

I do not suffer from an arrogance that causes me to think I know better than Christ and his Apostles.

Pa Pa, you are not one to mince words, you cut straight to the point and I like people that do that!

I myself am too verbose to be so short spoken and surgically precise, I try and explain everything!LOL

In one simple sentence you answered what took me almost half an hour of straight typing to say!

[Deborah]

God in a way is limited by the law since he is perfect and will not break the law ever, but seeing that he is also the creator of the law, the limits of the law are in place upon him by his own will. So it isn't a limit as much as self restraint, IMO.

Which is why we can trust him. I don't understand putting trust in a God who can do whatever he wants whenever without any rules.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Applying and becoming the truth always transcends God

[LDS Guy 1986]

Which is why we can trust him. I don't understand putting trust in a God who can do whatever he wants whenever without any rules.

I agree, all powerful doesn't mean you should do anything you want. This is the path to self destruction, our God is truly all powerful because he has the power to do anything, but the wisdom and knowledge to only do good always and forever!

Our God is a awesome God! His awesome nature is exemplified in the fact that he seeks for us to become like him, when you think of it no all powerful and good God would ever seek to see hid children never become like him, if they are worthy of such a reward of course.

[paulpatter]

. . . . We are all created differently; yet why do we have to pass through the same singular pigeon hole to get into heaven?

It isn't a "pigeon hole." Rather, it's unified acceptance of--and compliance with--the covenants one makes as a faithful member of the Church. At least some who are inclined to freelance the doctrines of the restored church and to wrest the covenants put their testimonies and their memberships in jeopardy.

Consider the following scriptures:

I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine. (D&C 38: 27)

And let every man deal honestly, and be alike among this people, and receive alike, that you may be one, even as I have commanded you. (D&C 51: 9)

Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity. (Ps. 133:1)

For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve him with one consent. (Zeph. 3:9)

And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee, Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou has given me, that they may be one, as we are. (John 17:11)

And the multitude of them that believe were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things in common. (John 4:32)

. . .be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you. (2 Cor. 13:11)

Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. (Philip. 2:2)

[volgadon]

Is your personal theology bigger than dogmatic theology?

I fail to see any differences between the two, as you've explained them.

[Monster]

Mormonism is a box, a rather small box that has a limited view. But if all you know is the inside of the box it seems vast to you. It seems all you would ever need because it is all you are able to see. If you have the courage to step outside the box you will see that there is so much much more to experience. Of course there are those who would tell you this is dangerous. Stay in the box where it is safe. There is only evil outside the box. There are people who care and love you in the box. Of course you can be happy in the box but you will miss opportunities so vast and wondrous it would bogle your mind.

If Joseph Smith would have not have had the courage to step outside the box we would not have the church today.</div>

[Deborah]

Mormonism is a box, a rather small box that has a limited view. But if all you know is the inside of the box it seems vast to you. It seems all you would ever need because it is all you are able to see.

That is certainly a distorted view of Mormonism, considering that many of us here are converts to the church and haven't grown up in the small box you portray. I found that becoming Mormon expanded my view of God, the universe and man. How sad that you have such a limited view of the gospel as taught by Mormonism.

[mfbukowski]

I fail to see any differences between the two, as you've explained them.

Agreed.

The idea that because God is human he is limited in some way is simply a denial of all that we as humans can become, and a degradation of the infinite gift he has given us that we can become like him.

There is no more audacious idea in the universe in my opinion. Talk about thinking "Big"!

[Avatar4321]

Personal theology?

The concept is foreign to reason. Reality is simply what it is. It doesn't change because each individual person decides it's different. I think it's rather arrogant to presume that God is going to be what we as individuals want him to be or think. God is independent of us. What we believe or don't believe about Him doesn't change who He is.

As Mormons Our theology is to believe the Truth. To believe things as they really are. Not as we want them to be. But as they really are, as they were, and as they will be. If we believe something that is not true, it is our responsibility to forsake that falsehood and seek the truth. We don't dictate what the truth is. We discover and learn it through study, experiment, and revelation. If we discover something we've believed is false, it's us who changes to conform to that truth. The universe does not confirm to what we think.

This is a fundamental principle of the Gospel. This is why we seek revelation from God. He can reveal greater Truth to us.

Maybe it would be better for people to stop worrying about God not being big enough and simply accept Him for who He is. I mean He accepts us for who we are.

[Monster]

That is certainly a distorted view of Mormonism, considering that many of us here are converts to the church and haven't grown up in the small box you portray. I found that becoming Mormon expanded my view of God, the universe and man. How sad that you have such a limited view of the gospel as taught by Mormonism.

I

I am glad Mormonism expande your view. It does that for many people depending on where you came from. For me it is limiting perhaps because I was raised in it and did not see all the wonderful other things in the world. Everything always had to be interpreted through the mormon lens so many things became distorted. That is just me however for others it may be everything they need.

[Monster]

Personal theology?

The concept is foreign to reason. Reality is simply what it is. It doesn't change because each individual person decides it's different. I think it's rather arrogant to presume that God is going to be what we as individuals want him to be or think. God is independent of us. What we believe or don't believe about Him doesn't change who He is.

So who gets to decide what reality is? Your reality as far as the nature of God may be totally different than the next person.

As Mormons Our theology is to believe the Truth. To believe things as they really are. Not as we want them to be. But as they really are, as they were, and as they will be. If we believe something that is not true, it is our responsibility to forsake that falsehood and seek the truth. We don't dictate what the truth is. We discover and learn it through study, experiment, and revelation. If we discover something we've believed is false, it's us who changes to conform to that truth. The universe does not confirm to what we think.

I agree completely. But to truley live this you must be willing to give up every belief you have if new revelation or evidence comes along to contradict it. Sadly many people conform the evidence and revelation they receive to enhance or confirm their existing beliefs. It is not easy for people to let go of cherised beliefs when faced with reality. More often than not it is reality that must shift and not them.

This is a fundamental principle of the Gospel. This is why we seek revelation from God. He can reveal greater Truth to us.

Maybe it would be better for people to stop worrying about God not being big enough and simply accept Him for who He is. I mean He accepts us for who we are.

Would you be willing to accept that through revelation someone received direction in their life that was completely contrary to your belief through revelation? this is what happens everyday and hence why so many different beliefs.

[california boy]

When Christ came to earth, the major problem he had with the church is that the dogma of the church had taken over the core direction of the church. You can only walk so many steps on the sabbath, You can't pick an ear of corn to eat on the sabbath. Samaritans should be scorned etc. He said they were like sepulcher, white and shiny on the outside but decayed and dead on the inside.

I find most religions have that exact same problem today. The dogma takes over the message of Christ. When that dogma divides people and condemns a group because they don't fit the dogma, then what Christ taught is lost. The simple words of Christ doesn't have a lot of dogma in it. What doctrine did Christ expound? How much did he say about the word of wisdom, who should hold the priesthood, who should be condemned and outcast from the church, who was living the dietary laws, etc. He seems to have more disgust for those looking down on others than he did for the publicans, those living in adultry, or sinners.

I always have thought that the very last words of any prophet would be the very most important words that he would say. They have lived their lives and with all that wisdom I feel that they are leaving what they consider to be the very essence of all that knowledge. So I have specifically studied, where possible, what a prophets last words are. I also believe that the very last words that Christ left with us are the very most important words He wanted us to remember. What were those last words. Well his last public sermon is found in Matthew 25. What was Joseph Smiths last thoughts when he had John Taylor sing to him?

John spends almost HALF of his writings dedicated to the very last meeting with his apostles. And what is the core of that message? "A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another as I have loved you" "Become one even as my Father and I are one" Clearly the core message of Christ is to love others, exclude none, and don't let dogma get in the way of that message.

So how does this translate to most churches? Well simply ask yourself: Do I spend more time in PEC, training meetings, Sacrament meetings, young men's primaryward corrolation etc. each week discussing dogma and administration than helping those both within and outside the church. Is the majority of the service render to others organized by the Elders Quorum. Do youth only do service through organized service projects? Is home teaching that big of burden? If you take away all the trappings of the church organization, then who are you really? Do you need a church to live a Christ-like life?? Or does it get in the way.

Just something to think about.

[mfbukowski]

Do you need a church to live a Christ-like life?? Or does it get in the way.

Just something to think about.

How much volunteer service do most "Christians" with paid clergy give their communities and even their own congregations?

Who does it for them?

Just something to think about.

[mfbukowski]

Would you be willing to accept that through revelation someone received direction in their life that was completely contrary to your belief through revelation? this is what happens everyday and hence why so many different beliefs.

What we need to accept is that God directs us individually and teaches us in the way we need to grow personally.

I was a Catholic, an atheist and a Buddhist before I found the church more than 30 years ago, and I believe I "had" to go through each stage of progression before I found the fullest truth.

I am not about to tell anyone that any revelation they receive to join a church or not to join is not from God because I know better.

He takes us from where we are and leads us to where we need to be to get closer to Him, if we are responsive to the spirit. That's all there is to it.