Over 1/3 of women have had abortions?

[TAO]

1. Why is it ever okay to have an abortion?

- if the the reason for not aborting fetus' is that you are killing an innocent living being, why does that change if a person is raped etc? The fetus is still innocent and killed in these instances.

I think the Church is grey somewhat in this area, because it is a tough thing to go through. As for me, I'm rather a 'no abortion whatosever' sorta guy.

2. Are you against in-vitro fertilization?

- as per the link below, most eggs used in the process are disposed of. Why are these fertilized eggs not a concern of the pro-life movement?

http://www.religious...rg/abo_inco.htm

Dunno if I am against it or not yet. I would rather adopt than in-vitro =P.

I'd say unfertilized eggs would be ok. Fertilized ones though... I'd be a bit more hesitant.

[semlogo]

No he is not...Once in the body however, I believe it is killing.

Why does location make a difference?

Personally, I wouldn't consider it to be "like unto murder" until the fetus has a functioning brain. My two cents.

[blueadept]

I think the Church is grey somewhat in this area, because it is a tough thing to go through. As for me, I'm rather a 'no abortion whatosever' sorta guy.

Dunno if I am against it or not yet. I would rather adopt than in-vitro =P.

I'd say unfertilized eggs would be ok. Fertilized ones though... I'd be a bit more hesitant.

From my experience with LDS members, I believe you represent a large majority of the LDS faithful. A reason that I'm surprised that is NOT reflected at pro-life rallies. I would say the perception outside the LDS church is one of indifference in regards to the issue of abortion.

Most other churches are vocal one way or another. In discussing the issue with LDS members.....you're pro-life IMO.

[krose]

With the speakers at the pro-life rally who explained the circumstances that led to them aborting/murdering their children, the love of God and His merciness saved them as attested by their testimonies. Arresting the women on that stage seemed to be the LAST thing anyone at that rally anyone would desire.

I'm glad the Christian message of forgiving reigned supreme at the rally than your viewpoint. Neither side supports such laws.....thank goodness.

As long as you extend the same Christian forgiveness to mothers who kill their already-born children due to the "circumstances" of depression (post-partum or otherwise), and don't charge them with murder either, that would be consistent. Would you charge a grieving mother with the murder of her child even if she did it herself?

I do not, myself, think of abortion as murder. I'm merely trying to point out the inconsistency in those who do. Of course the pro-life side only wants to charge doctors, who are just providing a requested service.

[krose]

I have no idea.

I'm happy knowing that God knows and that's enough for me.

That's a problem, since God is not the one who has to make the laws.

[TAO]

From my experience with LDS members, I believe you represent a large majority of the LDS faithful. A reason that I'm surprised that is NOT reflected at pro-life rallies. I would say the perception outside the LDS church is one of indifference in regards to the issue of abortion.

Most other churches are vocal one way or another. In discussing the issue with LDS members.....you're pro-life IMO.

Yah generally so. I guess I just haven't gotten involved =). I suppose someday I might. I think a call for involvement (although I would be worried people would have a fit just like they did over Prop 8...) would help somewhat. But ya' never know. Talk to some of your LDS friends (if you know any locally) and perhaps they can get something together =).

[blueadept]

Yah generally so. I guess I just haven't gotten involved =). I suppose someday I might. I think a call for involvement (although I would be worried people would have a fit just like they did over Prop 8...) would help somewhat. But ya' never know. Talk to some of your LDS friends (if you know any locally) and perhaps they can get something together =).

It's funny you mentioned this. Our group of 25 traveled 2 hours to catch an early morning bus with other pro-lifers of that community (2 buses). One of my daughters friends from a different local church went with us and seemed to enjoy the trip. Our local youth leader is looking into having a bus leave from our community and invite other churches to come along. I'm likely going to talk to the local Stake President about it

While I would be worried about my kids attending a Prop 8 event, there's no worry about such a thing for you attending this Walk for Life event. I remember tripping over at least a dozen strollers w/ babies at this years walk. While this can be considered a volitile issue, the respect between Pro-lifers and pro-choicers is good. San Francisco's finest I thanked consistently along the route

[bluebell]

That's a problem, since God is not the one who has to make the laws.

My feelings about abortion are not connected or based on the laws concerning it. Legal or illegal, my feelings are the same.

As far as i understand the OP, the thread is not about legality but morality. My statement only becomes a problem if someone attempts to place it in a context that it was never meant to be in.

[jwhitlock]

As with many issues, it may be helpful to differentiate between the types of abortions that are done. There is a large difference between using the morning after pill, and aborting a fetus in the third trimester.

When done for convenience, the latter is abhorrent in the extreme and is nothing less than murder, from my viewpoint.

As one works from both ends of the spectrum and into areas that are more gray, it becomes evident that one approach does not fit all situations. I am specifically against abortions of convenience as a general category, convenience being defined as a desire to avoid responsibility or hardship when the choice is made to engage in sex. Those abortions seem to be in the significant majority, and do not reflect well on the general moral perspective of many people, both male and female.

It is worth noting that Church policy does hold a male involved in any way with an abortion just as responsible as the female - perhaps more so if the male pressures the female in any way. While the involvement of the female in an abortion of convenience is ugly in and of itself, the selfishness and cowardly nature of the male who pushes or supports an abortion is even more reprehensible.

[bluebell]

The morning after pill is NOT the abortion pill. If you are already pregnant, the morning after pill will not abort the pregnancy.

The MA pill is basically a really strong form of hormonal contraceptive which, if taken soon enough after sex, will keep a fertilized egg from implanting. Since a woman is not pregnant until the egg implants, the MA pill keeps the pregnancy from occurring at all.

In that way, it's really not much different than regular birth control, which also can keep a fertilized egg from implanting.

[blueadept]

As long as you extend the same Christian forgiveness to mothers who kill their already-born children due to the "circumstances" of depression (post-partum or otherwise), and don't charge them with murder either, that would be consistent. Would you charge a grieving mother with the murder of her child even if she did it herself?

I understand the need to be consistent with all these different scenarios. Most people associate the penalty for murder to be the death penalty. I'm fine with my church's viewpoint in regards to the death penalty and the need of society to protect itself. The guidance is to follow civil law. Mothers who have an abortion, are not subject to being charged with murder. Mother's who murder their already born children can be. I'm fine with leaving this as a civil matter.

I do not, myself, think of abortion as murder. I'm merely trying to point out the inconsistency in those who do. Of course the pro-life side only wants to charge doctors, who are just providing a requested service.

I disagree.

IMO, the first goal would be to change the law. IMO, this isn't going to happen. The second goal would be to shutdown the planned parenthood clinics, thus putting these doctors out of business. With the growing number of pro-life (pregnancy care centers) clinics and the number of abortion clinics closing, this goal is slowly being attained. I'm surprised the local doctor who performs the abortions hasn't keeled over yet. The protesters and doctors for the pro-choicers are obviously getting up there in age. They're side is losing momentum as I see a generation gap developing so changing the law may eventually may not be necessary.

[blueadept]

As one works from both ends of the spectrum and into areas that are more gray,

Have you seen the ultra-sound for a 8-week fetus (baby) in the womb when most abortions occur? IMHO, it's not even close to a gray area.

Planned parenthood is an uncontrolled business. They've got approval to perform abortions up to 20 weeks. They perform them after this (under the table per se)and all that is required is additional money. This is testimony of pro-life advocates who have called these clinics claiming to be pregnant and the guidance that was given over a phone....gag

[bluebell]

I think it's utterly despicable that late term abortions are legal. A 20 week old fetus is capable of surviving, with help, if it is born spontaneously at that age and yet some people are fine with tearing such a baby to pieces while it's still in the womb, or puncturing the skull and sucking out the brain, or having it be partially born before dismembering it?

Isn't that pretty much the definition of depraved?

[jwhitlock]

Have you seen the ultra-sound for a 8-week fetus (baby) in the womb when most abortions occur? IMHO, it's not even close to a gray area.

Planned parenthood is an uncontrolled business. They've got approval to perform abortions up to 20 weeks. They perform them after this (under the table per se)and all that is required is additional money. This is testimony of pro-life advocates who have called these clinics claiming to be pregnant and the guidance that was given over a phone....gag

I'm not saying that particular case is a gray area when it comes to abortions of convenience, and I don't disagree.

I generally find it necessary to differentiate between abortions of convenience, and medically necessary terminations of pregnancy, the reasons for which have been noted at various times in this thread.

Where the former is concerned, there is little need for discussion. It's simply wrong. Where the latter is concerned, the situations often need to be resolved on a case by case basis.

And I also find PP to be particularly reprehensible.

BTW, we have the case out here in Pennsylvania of the Philadelphia "doctor" who is being charged with murder for killing babies that were born at his abortion clinic. This guy is a real dirtbag; what he did was basically premeditated murder and should be tried as that. Don't know if you've been seeing that in the news in your area.

[blueadept]

Did I hear about the Philadelphia doctor?

There was someone from that community that gave an ugly desciption of that house......

I believe you and I have similar views in regards to this. Let's take care of the 93% of the abortions of inconvenience we agree upon (or at least dramatically reduce these). IMO, we agree with this goal.

[rpn]

Abortions for mere inconvenience are not the biggest group. The biggest group is abortion because of desperation. Some of that desperation arises from lack of understanding or belief in the sanctity of human life, though some live lives where they don't have any reason to belief THEY are of personal worth, so they may be thinking of it is preventing a child from experiencing the pain they feel. I wish men would quit thinking it is their job to stamp out those awful abortions that those morally weak women have. It isn't helpful because men are never in the kind of distress that the women in such situations are.

Talk (or better yet live) like women are capable.

Honor the sanctity of women by eliminating porn and sleaze and lust and and sex outside of marriage, force and abuse.

See to it that education is deemed as more important than social acceptance.

Make sure women are not consigned to homes where they are raped and sold and demeaned; and sons are self-disciplined and kind.

Then you will have more hope and less abortion.

[katherine the great]

Something seems a little hinkey about that statistic. 50 million abortions over almost 40 years. Does that translate to 1/6th of the U.S. population? I know for a fact that there is no way that one out of every three women I know have had an abortion. Of course, I also don't live in a poverty stricken urban area. On the other hand, it seems like every poverty stricken urbanite I know is a single mother so they don't seem to be regularly having abortions either. I am extremely opposed to abortion, but in my anthropological and women's studies I have learned some very disturbing things about how women have historically dealt with unwanted or unaffordable pregnancies. They usually resorted to infanticide, and there were generally no laws prohibiting it unless there was a father involved who was opposed to it. It's so hard for me to understand how, with such widely available birth control, unwanted pregnancies even exist in our society. It's easier to understand in underdeveloped countries. We just have no excuse.

[blueadept]

Something seems a little hinkey about that statistic. 50 million abortions over almost 40 years. Does that translate to 1/6th of the U.S. population? I know for a fact that there is no way that one out of every three women I know have had an abortion. Of course, I also don't live in a poverty stricken urban area. On the other hand, it seems like every poverty stricken urbanite I know is a single mother so they don't seem to be regularly having abortions either. I am extremely opposed to abortion, but in my anthropological and women's studies I have learned some very disturbing things about how women have historically dealt with unwanted or unaffordable pregnancies. They usually resorted to infanticide, and there were generally no laws prohibiting it unless there was a father involved who was opposed to it. It's so hard for me to understand how, with such widely available birth control, unwanted pregnancies even exist in our society. It's easier to understand in underdeveloped countries. We just have no excuse.

Fortunately, Utah has in place reasonable requirements before a women could obtain an abortion.

Restrictions on Abortion

In Utah, the following restrictions on abortion were in effect as of January 2011:

The parent of a minor must consent and be notified before an abortion is provided.

A woman must receive state-directed counseling that includes information designed to discourage her from having an abortion and then wait 24 hours before the procedure is provided. Counseling must be provided in person and must take place before the waiting period begins, thereby necessitating two separate trips to the facility.

Public funding is available for abortion only in cases of life endangerment, physical health, rape, incest or fetal abnormality

KTG, I'm assuming you live Utah and forgive me if you don't. Utah seems to be immune to this issue since there were only 4000 abortions in 2008. Here's some stats.

[MorningStar]

I would like abortion for convenience to be illegal, but if abortion for rape were still legal, I'm afraid that would lead to false allegations of rape for those who want convenience abortions.

True that there's not much excuse for accidental pregnancies in our culture, but when I worked at a doctor's office, we had a teenage girl call and she asked if it was true that you can't get pregnant if you shower right afterwards. Her boyfriend assured her that was the case. You can educate people, but you can't make them apply it. Teens are too irresponsible to be having sex.

[frankenstein]

Food for thought at least. If someone tries to tell me that LDS folks are not pro-life due to their doctrine, I think I will.... The statistics say otherwise IMHO.

Why does the LDS Church need a catchy slogan or to wave a banner?

Why can't the LDS Church just have its stance without one group trying to pull the LDS Church to a side?

Why does the issue have to be so divisive?

The LDS Church acknowledges that abortion is justified under certain circumstances.

*it all seems as silly as trying to claim which US political party God or Jesus support.

[frankenstein]

she asked if it was true that you can't get pregnant if you shower right afterwards. Her boyfriend assured her that was the case. You can educate people, but you can't make them apply it. Teens are too irresponsible to be having sex.

unfortunately, I would say many US States discourage education.

One example from my College Health class, the professor worked a clininc, wherein a nice religious virgin came to visit, the religious person was told "You have ________ STD" the religious person responded "That can not be possible because I only engage in one kind of sexual act, and I never have vaginal intercourse".

[caudicus]

It is silly to believe that the legality of abortions causes more abortions. Just as it is silly to believe legalizing pot makes more stoners. The Netherlands have proved this is not the case, with far less regular users of marijuana, and surprise, surprise less abortions than we have in the US.

Despite having an open attitude towards sex, legalized prostitution, and nipples shown on tv every night, they have a fraction of the US's teen pregnancy rate. I always see religious people taking such harsh stances, but they never offer any real solutions... at least, nothing that has proven effective in the slightest.

Sure, abstinence is a great idea, but how many girls in your ward pop up pregnant every year? I may have had a large ward, growing up, but I don't have enough fingers to count the knocked up Mormon chicks during my (and their) teen years. Sex education should be first. Teenagers are going to have sex. There is nothing you can do about it. Proper education and preventing pregnancy is the first step towards bringing down the abortion rate in the US.

I get that you don't want your kids to have sex, but what is worse... sex or an abortion? If you can't stop one, you can at least stop the other. If they are responsible enough not to have sex, then they are responsible enough to be informed about what people do to prevent pregnancy and STDs. Again, the alternative is far worse.

Ultimately, abortion needs to be legal for a variety of reasons. I suspect everyone agrees with that. We don't need to force 11 year old rape victims to have children and we don't need young girls dying because they were trying to hide their shame. But more than that, not everyone believes in God, and they shouldn't be stifled by other people's religious beliefs. If you want a country where everyone is super religious and the laws are based strictly upon those religious ideals... well, there are places like that. Feel free to move there.

Of course, there are plenty of Christians out there who believe abortion should be legal. Before this debate became so polarized, there was a time when abortion was accepted amongst true believers in Christ. Imagine women during the Depression who had no birth control, where another mouth to feed would literally put lives in the balance. They resorted to homemade solutions like letting air into the cervix with a boiled chicken feather, or applying toxic chemicals to the insides of themselves.

So, if you don't believe in abortion... don't do it. It's a free country. Personally, I think it is very destructive for a number of reasons, but that doesn't make me believe I should be able to impinge upon the rights and free will of other people.

I am not in their shoes, and I never will be. Consider yourself fortunate to be able to say the same.

[Jason]

It is silly to believe that the legality of abortions causes more abortions. Just as it is silly to believe legalizing pot makes more stoners. The Netherlands have proved this is not the case, with far less regular users of marijuana, and surprise, surprise less abortions than we have in the US.

Having served my mission in the Netherlands I can tell you that this simply isn't true. There are many, many people who smoke marijuana simply because it is more readily available. Many, many lives have been ruined by the free availability of marijuana and the more casual and tolerant attitude towards drug abuse in general in the Netherlands.

If there are less abortions it is because they are a bit more careful with birth control.

Despite having an open attitude towards sex, legalized prostitution, and nipples shown on tv every night, they have a fraction of the US's teen pregnancy rate.

Which isn't because their teens are having less sex than teens in the US are.

Sure, abstinence is a great idea, but how many girls in your ward pop up pregnant every year?

Very few.

Teenagers are going to have sex. There is nothing you can do about it.

Except educate them properly to save it for marriage. You might as well say "teenagers are going to become gang members. There is nothing you can do about it." Or "Teenagers are going to abuse drugs. There is nothing you can do about it."

So, if you don't believe in abortion... don't do it. It's a free country. Personally, I think it is very destructive for a number of reasons, but that doesn't make me believe I should be able to impinge upon the rights and free will of other people.

And what of the rights of the unborn? Do they have none?

[krose]

Having served my mission in the Netherlands I can tell you that this simply isn't true. There are many, many people who smoke marijuana simply because it is more readily available. Many, many lives have been ruined by the free availability of marijuana and the more casual and tolerant attitude towards drug abuse in general in the Netherlands.

Perhaps your anecdotal evidence represents reality, perhaps not. (For all I know, you've spent two years wandering around US cities as well, knocking on doors in all kinds of neighborhoods, so you can reliably compare drug use there to that in Dutch cities.) However, what are the actual numbers, compared to the US?

If there are less abortions it is because they are a bit more careful with birth control.

And that is the solution to the abortion problem in a nutshell. If everyone knows about birth control and how it works, and it's easily available to all, there will be fewer abortions. Unfortunately, in our country we have been going in the opposite direction, trying to keep that information away from young people.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

This rationalization makes my brain hurt.

Why in the world would it be different once placed in a uterus?

Why...at that point it is a pregnancy. You are making my head hurt. You do not see the difference?