Over 1/3 of women have had abortions?

[Jason]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adult_lifetime_cannabis_use_by_country

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annual_cannabis_use_by_country

Wikipedia? Really - that's your source?

Notice Belgium who also considers an ounce of less to be legal is also a fraction of the US usage. My argument that legalization does not create more stoners, or even casual users according to these statistics, stands up pretty well under your, obviously skewed, personal experience.

I will stick with what I personally know rather than what others with an agenda are trying to prove.

How do you know something like that? Do you have a link? Are you suggesting that the legality of prostitution and the more open attitude towards sex causes more sex? I'd like to see how you arrive at that, because I am willing to gamble that the sexually active teens per capita in the US is almost exactly the same.

I would think it's pretty much self-evident. A more open and culturally-accepting attitude towards any behavior will lead to more of that behavior.

However, *IF* you are right, that would put the US in an even worse position in sexually active teens per abortion. It means, that your approach of teaching abstinence is even worse off than I thought.

That would assume that abstinance is being taught uniformly across the US. This is obviously not the case.

You are woefully ignorant when you make these statements.

Apparently one man's wisdom is another man's ignorance.

Addressing the contributing factors is the only way to prevent kids from becoming gang members or doing drugs.

I don't know if its the only way, but it is obviously one of the most effective.

Is it the same for sex? Kind of. But are you prepared to lock up your kids with no freedom and no trust until they are ready to get married?

Not necessary. I didn't have sex until I was married, and there were no locks necessary. My parents taught me correct principles and trusted me, and it worked.

All of my siblings and their wives and husband had the same experience. My wife and all of her siblings and their wives and husbands had the same experience. All of my extended family (cousins) and their wives and husbands had the same experience.

Apparently we're doing something right.

You might have to, because over half of LDS women have admitted to having premarital sex.

I don't think so. Source? And please don't say "wikipedia".

In short, you need a new plan.

Or we need people to consistently put into practice the old plan, which worked.

But Sex isn't the issue, is it? The issue is about protecting women from the horrors that occur in environments where abortion is illegal.

As opposed to the horrors of an environment in which it is culturally accepted and commonly indulged in.

Religion has no right to impose its will upon the people.

It doesn't take religion to realize that murdering your children at their most defenseless because their existence is inconvenient to you is an immoral act.

If you don't believe in abortion... don't do it. It's a free country. Personally, I think it is very destructive for a number of reasons, but that doesn't make me believe I should be able to impinge upon the rights and free will of other people.

Do you have the same attitude towards other destructive behavior? Rape? Spousal abuse? Child abuse? Or do you instead decide that maybe people shouldn't have the right to exercise their free will in harming others?

No. [the unborn have no rights]

There we will have to disagree.

Can you prove that these are sentient beings that can survive outside of the womb? Until you can, people can believe what they want.

Personally I don't think the value of a life is equal to their ability to survive unaided.

[WalkerW]

No. Can you prove that these are sentient beings that can survive outside of the womb? Until you can, people can believe what they want.

You can prove that they are actual human beings in the first stages of growth. Once again, see the following:

Robert P. George, Maureen Condic & Patrick Lee, "The Grail Searchers," National Review Online (July 20, 2009).

William P. Cheshire, Jr., "Human Embryo Research After the Genome," The Center for Bioethics & Human Dignity (November 14, 2002).

A quote from and about George:

"If abortion is not a form of homicide, if the developing embryo or fetus has the moral status of an unwanted growth

[WalkerW]

Can you prove that these are sentient beings that can survive outside of the womb?

If infants were left to themselves unaided, they couldn't survive outside the womb.

[maupayman]

Sexual sins are close to murder in their ability to destroy lives. People don't realize that because our society has become so over-sexualized.

I'm basically pointing out that the "they're going to do it anyway, so let's at least try to help them do it safely" argument is not a very sound one.

How is it not sound? It is based on observed reality, your position is based on fantasy. So, if there are two people, one just had protected sex and the other was murdered; you would say that their lives are close to being equally destroyed?

Trying to avoid some of the consequences of an action isn't as effective as putting your efforts into avoiding the action causing all the problems in the first place.

If its realistic, or necessary, you might have a point. Its neither.

[Jason]

How is it not sound? It is based on observed reality, your position is based on fantasy. So, if there are two people, one just had protected sex and the other was murdered; you would say that their lives are close to being equally destroyed?

Yes. But note that the issue is not necessarily a person's physical destruction, but also their emotional and spiritual destruction and that of those around them.

If its realistic, or necessary, you might have a point. Its neither.

As I said, it worked for me and everyone in my extended family.

[maupayman]

Yes. But note that the issue is not necessarily a person's physical destruction, but also their emotional and spiritual destruction and that of those around them.

I can tell you from personal experience, you only feel bad about having sex if you think its a bad thing. Otherwise, it can be great both emotionally and spiritually. I don't expect you to believe me, but its my experience. I have a testimony of the benefits of safe sex.

As I said, it worked for me and everyone in my extended family.

I don't believe for a minute that you know all the details of your entire extended family's sexual history. I grew up in the church and knew lots of kids that were having sex, despite what they were taught. Before I left the church, I lived in a city with a high concentration of LDS; the common practice among LDS youth their was to have a-nal sex, thereby "technically" remaining virgins and not having to confess sexual sins. Your experience is truly unique, if you are correct, however, it requires making everyone in the world believe the same things you do.....good luck with that. Again, the real world will push on with realistic strategies to deal with these issues. The abstinence crowd will continue to yell and picket from the sidelines.

[Jason]

I can tell you from personal experience, you only feel bad about having sex if you think its a bad thing. Otherwise, it can be great both emotionally and spiritually. I don't expect you to believe me, but its my experience. I have a testimony of the benefits of safe sex.

I can tell you from personal experience that sex is a good and positive force that binds a husband to a wife in ways that no other act can, that it is a sacred and holy act taht can result in the creation of new life. It is, when used properly, a very very good thing.

It is also very powerful. Like all very powerful things, it can be used for terrible evil as well as great good.

I don't believe for a minute that you know all the details of your entire extended family's sexual history.

That's fine. I do in fact know that none of my extended family had premarital sex, regardless of what you believe I know.

Your experience is truly unique...

Unless it is your experience that is unique. It's certainly nothing like mine.

Abstinance can work. I and my family are living proof of that.

[blueadept]

I have a testimony of the benefits of safe sex.

While I try to respect the LDS position and why you may have a testimony in regards to this.......I will NEVER truly get how one can get divine confirmation for it. Agree to disagree about one's testimony that supports it. So be it.

[bluebell]

While I try to respect the LDS position and why you may have a testimony in regards to this.......I will NEVER truly get how one can get divine confirmation for it. Agree to disagree about one's testimony that supports it. So be it.

I'm pretty sure that maupayman is making fun of the LDS testimony and using it in a sarcastic way as he trys to convince jason that he is wrong. As i understand it, Maupayman isn't LDS.

[maupayman]

I can tell you from personal experience that sex is a good and positive force that binds a husband to a wife in ways that no other act can, that it is a sacred and holy act taht can result in the creation of new life. It is, when used properly, a very very good thing.

Agreed, though I doubt we agree on the what is proper.

That's fine. I do in fact know that none of my extended family had premarital sex, regardless of what you believe I know.

Right........

Unless it is your experience that is unique. It's certainly nothing like mine.

Abstinance can work. I and my family are living proof of that.

That's great, so now we just need to make everyone in the world believe what you and your family believe. Good luck with that. Until you have uniformity of belief, there is no "one" solution. Different methods and teachings will prove more effective with different people. Abstinence teaching will not work for me, because I don't believe sex before marriage is bad, when it is done in a responsible manner.

[blueadept]

I'm pretty sure that maupayman is making fun of the LDS testimony and using it in a sarcastic way as he trys to convince jason that he is wrong. As i understand it, Maupayman isn't LDS.

While it may be true in regards to maupayman's allegiance, it's still a reasonable position for the LDS faithful to take after guidance by the bishop and properly confirming the proper course of action by the HG.

For those who may receive divine confirmation in regards to the use of artificial contraception (and I understand the guidance is limited as to which forms), it's still mind-boggling for me...

So be it.

[Jason]

That's great, so now we just need to make everyone in the world believe what you and your family believe. Good luck with that.

Well, we have been working on it. All of the men in my extended family have been missionaries too, and many of the women.

Until you have uniformity of belief, there is no "one" solution. Different methods and teachings will prove more effective with different people. Abstinence teaching will not work for me, because I don't believe sex before marriage is bad, when it is done in a responsible manner.

And I don't believe it's possible to have responsible sex outside of a marriage. Having sex outside of a marriage largely ignores what sex is for - it is a misuse of a powerful force.

[bluebell]

While it may be true in regards to maupayman's allegiance, it's still a reasonable position for the LDS faithful to take after guidance by the bishop and properly confirming the proper course of action by the HG.

For those who may receive divine confirmation in regards to the use of artificial contraception (and I understand the guidance is limited as to which forms), it's still mind-boggling for me...

So be it.

Ah, i thought you were talking about maupayman's belief that safe sex outside of marriage was confirmeable by the Holy Ghost.

Why don't you think though that the Holy Ghost can tell someone whether or not their choices are condemned or condoned by God, regardless of what the choice is?

[blueadept]

Ah, i thought you were talking about maupayman's belief that safe sex outside of marriage was confirmeable by the Holy Ghost.

Why don't you think though that the Holy Ghost can tell someone whether or not their choices are condemned or condoned by God, regardless of what the choice is?

There's certain moral issues that shouldn't need prayer to confirm if it's right or wrong. This particular subject falls into that category.

I shouldn't have to pray if it's all right to go to my neighbor's house and shoot them in the head. There's a problem if I need to pray to confirm that I shouldn't do that. I know that I may be viewed as comparing apples and oranges as far as these two subjects are concerned, but that's my personal thoughts (and my church's) on the issue.

[bluebell]

There's certain moral issues that shouldn't need prayer to confirm if it's right or wrong. This particular subject falls into that category.

I shouldn't have to pray if it's all right to go to my neighbor's house and shoot them in the head. There's a problem if I need to pray to confirm that I shouldn't do that. I know that I may be viewed as comparing apples and oranges as far as these two subjects are concerned, but that's my personal thoughts (and my church's) on the issue.

What's immoral about a married couple using a condemn? And why should it's immorality be as obvious to non-catholics as the immorality of murder?

[blueadept]

What's immoral about a married couple using a condemn?

LDS and Catholics agree on the beauty of sexual relations in regards to married couples and that society has blown that beauty and twisted it in negative ways.

Anyways, 'artificial' contraception is simply taking a sacred act and keeping God out of the equation. I know LDS couples have a different viewpoint about that but that's essentially what it comes down to. Keeping God out of the equation of anything is not a good thing IMHO.

And why should it's immorality be as obvious to non-catholics as the immorality of murder?

There's nothing necessarily obvious about it but you might understand the viewpoint if it can be taken as a bad thing when God is removed from the equation. I get why LDS in general do not see that they are though.

As a father of 4 daughters who are between the ages of 16 to 26, it's not like I don't have concerns here. So far, no teenage pregnacies (SP?) and I believe I won't have to worry about it either......

[bluebell]

LDS and Catholics agree on the beauty of sexual relations in regards to married couples and that society has blown that beauty and twisted it in negative ways.

Anyways, 'artificial' contraception is simply taking a sacred act and keeping God out of the equation. I know LDS couples have a different viewpoint about that but that's essentially what it comes down to. Keeping God out of the equation of anything is not a good thing IMHO.

So, if someone does not believe that artificial contraception keeps God out of the equation anymore than natural contraception does, then would it still be immoral for them to use it?

There's nothing necessarily obvious about it but you might understand the viewpoint if it can be taken as a bad thing when God is removed from the equation. I get why LDS in general do not see that they are though.

I can understand your viewpoint, i just disagree with. Because I don't believe it takes God out of the equation in the least, I don't believe it's at all immoral.

However, back to our original topic, if using a condom isn't obviously immoral, then wouldn't it smart for someone who wasn't sure to find out His feelings about it and get an answer from Him through the Holy Ghost?

That's what we were first talking about-your disbelief (if that's a good way to describe it) that anyone would ask God whether or not artifical contraception was alright with Him.

[blueadept]

So, if someone does not believe that artificial contraception keeps God out of the equation anymore than natural contraception does, then would it still be immoral for them to use it?

I believe we've had this conversation before and not much has changed..... Women were given this pretty awesome natural means that when you add today's technology of knowing when you're going to get pregnant if you have sex, there's nothing wrong with this birth control. That's the way God made us and the couple is working with the women's God-made cycle in determining when they want children. No issues here. I find strength in controlling one's urges in order to prevent pregnancy if the couple doesn't want kids yet. It has worked for my oldest kids.

Artificial means can be easily abused even within a good marriage. We may have to just agree to disagree with that statement.

However, back to our original topic, if using a condom isn't obviously immoral, then wouldn't it smart for someone who wasn't sure to find out His feelings about it and get an answer from Him through the Holy Ghost?

I believe this may depend on the individual. Most LDS are trained to pray about whatever guidance the leaders of your church gives you. I get it.

If my church says it's a sin, I'll usually research the issue to understand why it's considered a sin before accepting it. After while, you get to the point of simply accepting it since the thinking has been done over the centuries and I will admit that I don't always want to take the time. Researching centuries of reasoning can be difficult. Of course I can pray about it, but if I get a different answer than what I believe is God's Church, then I have to figure out the disconnect. No I didn't always agree with the Church on all issues especially this one. After doing a ton of research, I saw the selfish reasons why artificial contraception is wrong and why the church was right. I was able to confirm that answer in prayer.....just part of my spiritual journey.

That's what we were first talking about-your disbelief (if that's a good way to describe it) that anyone would ask God whether or not artifical contraception was alright with Him.

I think I've covered this

[bluebell]

I believe we've had this conversation before and not much has changed..... Women were given this pretty awesome natural means that when you add today's technology of knowing when you're going to get pregnant if you have sex, there's nothing wrong with this birth control. That's the way God made us and the couple is working with the women's God-made cycle in determining when they want children. No issues here. I find strength in controlling one's urges in order to prevent pregnancy if the couple doesn't want kids yet. It has worked for my oldest kids.

Artificial means can be easily abused even within a good marriage. We may have to just agree to disagree with that statement.

I believe this may depend on the individual. Most LDS are trained to pray about whatever guidance the leaders of your church gives you. I get it.

If my church says it's a sin, I'll usually research the issue to understand why it's considered a sin before accepting it. After while, you get to the point of simply accepting it since the thinking has been done over the centuries and I will admit that I don't always want to take the time. Researching centuries of reasoning can be difficult. Of course I can pray about it, but if I get a different answer than what I believe is God's Church, then I have to figure out the disconnect. No I didn't always agree with the Church on all issues especially this one. After doing a ton of research, I saw the selfish reasons why artificial contraception is wrong and why the church was right. I was able to confirm that answer in prayer.....just part of my spiritual journey.

I think I've covered this

I think we're talking past each other.

I didn't really want to get into whether contraception was immoral or not. I don't agree with your position and you don't agree with mine and I'm really very comfortable with that. I was just speaking to your reaction to the idea that someone who wasn't Catholic might ask God what His thoughts were on the subject.

I thought it was interesting that you couldn't comprehend that someone, again who was not Catholic and therefore belonged to a church that says birth control is between the person and the Lord, to have a testimony on the subject.

[sunstoned]

To my knowledge the Church has not specifically linked abortion to the sin of murder. Which I think is rather gutless on the part of the Church. I believe that Abortion is abhorrant as Murder.

I believe this is overly harsh. While I don't support abortions, I also do not feel a young, poor and desperate girl should be called a murderer.

[blueadept]

I think we're talking past each other.

I didn't really want to get into whether contraception was immoral or not. I don't agree with your position and you don't agree with mine and I'm really very comfortable with that.

No problem. I believe we respect each other but the way we approach issues can create misunderstandings. The LDS approach is rather simple but definitely not the Catholic way. The respect is there that we are doing the best in following Christ. It's all good.

I was just speaking to your reaction to the idea that someone who wasn't Catholic might ask God what His thoughts were on the subject.

I thought it was interesting that you couldn't comprehend that someone, again who was not Catholic and therefore belonged to a church that says birth control is between the person and the Lord, to have a testimony on the subject.

IMO, the LDS approach to asking God creates the image that he will give different answers to different folks especially if they are different religions. IMO, God is a bit more consistent than that ESPECIALLY in regards to moral issues. My Catholic brain has a hard time getting around this apparent fickleness of God. I have no issues with about confirming something with God. I have issues that he will give different answers to moral questions. Artificial contraception is a moral question IMHO.

My 2 cents

PS - I always enjoy our conversations such as these BB

[sunstoned]

Sexual sins are close to murder in their ability to destroy lives. People don't realize that because our society has become so over-sexualized.

I'm basically pointing out that the "they're going to do it anyway, so let's at least try to help them do it safely" argument is not a very sound one. Trying to avoid some of the consequences of an action isn't as effective as putting your efforts into avoiding the action causing all the problems in the first place.

Clue in Jason. Sex is close to murder? Most people in this country would find that statement way over the top. Mormons make up .002 percent of the worlds population. In other words not everyone believes like you do, and our laws reflect this.

[bluebell]

IMO, the LDS approach to asking God creates the image that he will give different answers to different folks especially if they are different religions. IMO, God is a bit more consistent than that ESPECIALLY in regards to moral issues. My Catholic brain has a hard time getting around this apparent fickleness of God. I have no issues with about confirming something with God. I have issues that he will give different answers to moral questions. Artificial contraception is a moral question IMHO.

My 2 cents

PS - I always enjoy our conversations such as these BB

No, i completely agree with you. I just don't think that artificial contraceptive IS a moral issue. As such, God's personal answers for each of us individual isn't fickleness at all.

I know that because of your beliefs about such contraception, you have to believe that any answer contrary to what you believe is false and therefore, there is no need to ask.

Because i'm not bound by the same constraints, i can see the issue in a completely different, yet still very focused on God and spiritual, way.

[bluebell]

Clue in Jason. Sex is close to murder? Most people in this country would find that statement way over the top. Mormons make up .002 percent of the worlds population. In other words not everyone believes like you do, and our laws reflect this.

In the way that both sex and murder allow humans to have complete power over whether another person's mortal life is created or ended, they are the same. I think that's what Jason was referring to.

They both share that power over life-one gives it, another takes it-but the power over life is the ultimate issue.

[caudicus]

Jason,

Wikipedia? Really - that's your source?

Did you notice that the numbers from Wikipedia are from other sources? Perhaps you didn't bother to read any of it. I understand... it is easier for you to ignore evidence that is contrary to your beliefs.

In the year 2000, the US authorities confiscated 1200 metric tons of marijuana. Most of this was from foreign sources. 1,200 metric tons = over 2.5 million pounds. That was just what they caught. Are you really going to tell me that an estimate of 44% of people have used it is too large? Think about those numbers. Even if they caught half of all the illegal drugs, and you and I both know the real number isn't even close, there is still enough weed on the streets to get everyone in America high many times over.

So, you can cling to your idea that illegality helps, but the truth is the facts are contrary to what you want to be true. Your attitude gives us quite a bit of insight into how people ignore the truth and evidence and believe according to how they feel, though, so at least we have learned a little bit in this discussion.

I would think it's pretty much self-evident. A more open and culturally-accepting attitude towards any behavior will lead to more of that behavior.

Again, the facts have shown you to be wrong. While we know how you feel about the issue... you can't actually show us any facts or evidence to support you claims. As a matter of fact, I don't ever recall you actually using evidence to support any of your claims. Why should we believe you? Seriously. Without evidence, what is there to persuade us that your point of view is the correct one?

Edit: Average age of loss of virginity...

US: 16.4

UK: 16

Netherlands: 17.7

World: 17.3

That would assume that abstinance is being taught uniformly across the US. This is obviously not the case.

Jason, my point of view doesn't really assume anything. The fact is that teen pregnancy rates are much higher than in the Netherlands. The fact is that they also have fewer abortions per teen pregnancy. The fact is that they have less cases of STD infections, by far, than the US. The question you have to ask is, "What is the difference?"

Sex is everywhere in the Netherlands, yet the country has the lowest teenage pregnancy rate in the West and the lowest rates of sexually transmitted diseases among young people... The [uK] Government has chosen the Dutch model rather than the Nordic way of tackling the subject of sex because the Netherlands, unlike Scandinavian nations, also manages to have one of the lowest abortion rates in Europe.

...

So how do the Dutch do it? Siebe Heutzepeter, the headmaster of De Burght School, laughs at the idea that sex lessons are all children need to stop them becoming sexually active too young.