Over 1/3 of women have had abortions?

[Bsix]

The title has been edited. Let's show a little sensitivity towards women who have great remorse.

Fair enough...I don't want to unduly offend anyone.

I do wonder...would we be as concerned with tempering titles about adultery, drinking, murder, etc. out of sensitivity to those who have sinned in those ways?

By way of observation, there seems to be a level of political correctness in how those who commit abortion are described.

Six

Women who went through the procedure due to a threat to their health, rape, incest, and other factors don't need the added grief of being called a killer.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

That's a gross overstatement of the Church's position.

Your feeble attempt, below, to explain the true position only makes your misleading assertion worse.

Lehi

A very gross overstatement!

[Bsix]

This is a fascinating subject. I have a few questions for posters who are against abortion.

1. Why is it ever okay to have an abortion?

- if the the reason for not aborting fetus' is that you are killing an innocent living being, why does that change if a person is raped etc? The fetus is still innocent and killed in these instances.

2. Are you against in-vitro fertilization?

- as per the link below, most eggs used in the process are disposed of. Why are these fertilized eggs not a concern of the pro-life movement?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_inco.htm

Of all of the abortions performed and invitro eggs disposed of the total? Virtually zero...or very close to it.

These morally tough questions are often used by those supporting abortion as a red herring or as the beginning of a slippery slope.

I'd like to see an end to all abortions. As a pragmatic comprimise, I would accept tolerating rape and incest abortions. We save a million lives per year and lose a few thousand to a unresolved, complex and difficult victim conundrum. It would be a hard but acceptable start. I'd also focus on stopping elective, convinience abortions before tackling invitro issues.

Of course, many pro-abortionists seem to be interested in exploiting rape and incest victims...and childless couples as tools to make general abortions legal and easily available.

Six

[Bsix]

duplicate

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I still believe abortion in this case is wrong; a choice was still made by someone, and it wasn't the child's fault. I believe the most merciful thing to do would be to give the child up for adoption.

Especially in the case of incest; the victim of this crime is further victimized possibly giving birth to her own brother or sister

[blueadept]

Fair enough...I don't want to unduly offend anyone.

I do wonder...would we be as concerned with tempering titles about adultery, drinking, murder, etc. out of sensitivity to those who have sinned in those ways?

By way of observation, there seems to be a level of political correctness in how those who commit abortion are described.

Six

3 of the 6 speakers at the pro-life rally were women who had gone through abortions. The best woman being a black lady who had two abortions and then actually wanted to conceive a baby but wasn't able to due to the damage of the abortions. Her naming her lost children and sharing that was rather moving. The message of God healing and forgiving her was awesome....we do have an awesome God!! I also reflected back on a story my priest shared of a young woman who came to him and he deduced that she had an abortion and why she was so bitter with the church.

God is always willing to forgive.......but we do have to forgive ourselves as well.

My 2 cents

[seriously honestly]

Especially in the case of incest; the victim of this crime is further victimized possibly giving birth to her own brother or sister

[BCSpace]

1. Why is it ever okay to have an abortion?

- if the the reason for not aborting fetus' is that you are killing an innocent living being, why does that change if a person is raped etc? The fetus is still innocent and killed in these instances.

I would posit that the thinking is that because of rape, the woman did not exercise her agency which now takes precedence over the child's. This puts emphasis on the fact that when one chooses to have sex, it is grievous sin to rid oneself of the consequence.

[frankenstein]

Fair enough...I don't want to unduly offend anyone.

I do wonder...would we be as concerned with tempering titles about adultery, drinking, murder, etc. out of sensitivity to those who have sinned in those ways?

By way of observation, there seems to be a level of political correctness in how those who commit abortion are described.

Six

Bsix if you understood the position of the LDS Church you would have been more sensitive in the title.

The LDS Church has changed it teaching on Abortion, I considered a more sensitive change.

Old Gospel Principles manual

There is seldom any excuse for abortion.

New Gospel Principles manual

There is seldom any justifiable reason for abortion. Church leaders have said that some exceptional circumstances may justify an abortion...

So the Church changed from "excuse" to "justifiable". Which is a softening of tone on the issue.

Some people may HAVE to have an abortion for some reason, so it is terribly insensitive to use the term "kill" or other language which seeming refuses to acknowledge that sometimes unfortunate things must be done for reasons unknown to outsiders.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Oh I was referring the the unborn child; I was say that the actions that lead to them being conceived wasn't the baby's fault, and shouldn't be aborted. Rape is a horrible act, but I still believe God can bring forth miracles and healing out of such a dark situation.

Got it...that makes it clearer.

As to what I highlighted...I agree.

[ELF1024]

I question whether 35% of women age 46 and under have really had an abortion. That sounds like too many to me, and the source document doesn't seem to have that figure in it.

I also doubt the number is that high. I would assume that the number is about 10%, and that a small percentage of that 10% (for argument lets say 3%) are throwing off the average by having multiple abortions over the years.

However, I may be guilty of giving women too much credit.

It reminds me of the Newborn outfit I saw once that said: "Now that I'm safe, I'm Pro-Choice!"

[maupayman]

I don't believe that life begins with conception-i don't believe that every fertilized egg is the equivelant to a human being. I do however feel that ending a life that would become a human (and i do think that happens LONG before birth) for 'social' reasons is pretty low on the scale of humanity, and a sin.

So, at what point does it become human?

[maupayman]

Of all of the abortions performed and invitro eggs disposed of the total? Virtually zero...or very close to it.

The article linked claims that the norm would be to dispose of 20 embryos, every time its done. Where do you get your virtually zero from?

These morally tough questions are often used by those supporting abortion as a red herring or as the beginning of a slippery slope.

This article is from a pro-life group! Did you even look?

Of course, many pro-abortionists seem to be interested in exploiting rape and incest victims...and childless couples as tools to make general abortions legal and easily available.

That's how you read my post? Wow. I didn't even state my position on abortion. Thanks for forming my conclusions for me though.

[blueadept]

I would posit that the thinking is that because of rape, the woman did not exercise her agency which now takes precedence over the child's.

.......and people wonder why there's a movement to support the unborn child.

The one case I never had an issue with a mother having an abortion was when she's told she's likely to die if she carried to term. I was there visiting her with my partner. The fact that she already had two children at home waiting and simply was there recovering from the abortion, I found it easy to pray with her for a speedy recovery.

If I was the husband in such a scenario, I think I would have gotten a second medical opinion.

[blueadept]

So, at what point does it become human?

The beginnings of that slippery slope IMHO.

[semlogo]

I still believe abortion in this case is wrong; a choice was still made by someone, and it wasn't the child's fault. I believe the most merciful thing to do would be to give the child up for adoption.

There's no need to go right to using 24 eggs; I would say only use as many eggs as you plan on implanting.

My last bishop was a fertility doctor. He regularly helped couples conceive using the standard procedure that leaves many fertilized eggs that will never be implanted. Is he a murderer? Keep in mind he was called to be a bishop as a practicing MD, and continues to be active and temple-worthy and continues to help couples conceive today.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

My last bishop was a fertility doctor. He regularly helped couples conceive using the standard procedure that leaves many fertilized eggs that will never be implanted. Is he a murderer?

No he is not...Once in the body however, I believe it is killing.

[cinepro]

Some interesting...and profoundly sad stats on abortion (50 million abortions...LINK)

-- 50 million abortions since Roe v Wade

I heard that number the other day, and I am shocked. I had no idea so many abortions were performed. I had always assumed it was a somewhat rare procedure.

That number also makes me scratch my head about the Church's somewhat "sensitive" approach to the issue. Frankly, I would think we'd at least be as involved in the fight against abortion as we are in the fight against legalized gay marriage. The Church seems to have accepted society's fate on the issue, but having spent time in the south and seen the pickets and protests around abortion clinics, I can tell you that other groups haven't given up.

[krose]

No he is not...Once in the body however, I believe it is killing.

This rationalization makes my brain hurt.

Why in the world would it be different once placed in a uterus?

Also, add me to the list of people who would like to see an explanation from Bluebell regarding the beginning of life.

[Jason]

That number also makes me scratch my head about the Church's somewhat "sensitive" approach to the issue. Frankly, I would think we'd at least be as involved in the fight against abortion as we are in the fight against legalized gay marriage. The Church seems to have accepted society's fate on the issue, but having spent time in the south and seen the pickets and protests around abortion clinics, I can tell you that other groups haven't given up.

It's not the Church's way to picket and protest. If there were a reasonable chance of legislation overturning Roe you might see the Church encourage its members to support it.

[blueadept]

I heard that number the other day, and I am shocked. I had no idea so many abortions were performed. I had always assumed it was a somewhat rare procedure.

That number also makes me scratch my head about the Church's somewhat "sensitive" approach to the issue. Frankly, I would think we'd at least be as involved in the fight against abortion as we are in the fight against legalized gay marriage. The Church seems to have accepted society's fate on the issue, but having spent time in the south and seen the pickets and protests around abortion clinics, I can tell you that other groups haven't given up.

I will admit that the majority of pro-lifers at the walk for life are Catholic even though it's not a RCC event and I am surprised there isn't a more recognizable support from the LDS church or its members. Hmmm.......

News sources are placing the number of pro-life walkers around 50,000 this year and the movement is obviously growing. Perhaps the LDS church will show some solidarity with its fellow Christians and show some support even if its just from the pulpit....who knows.

[krose]

Unless anti-abortion activists support laws that would charge mothers with murder, I don't think they have much credibility when they call abortion "murder."

If abortion is murder, the mother (or father, grandparent, etc.) is at best the person who ordered and paid for the "hit," often punished more harshly in our system than the trigger-man.

Of course, then we would also have to start looking into spontaneous abortions (miscarriages) to determine if there was negligence involved that ought to be prosecuted.

[Deborah]

I know women who have been raped and kept the baby as a result, not blaming the child. The little one was loved and accepted. I think that is why the church admonishes those in that situation to pray and carefully decide the best outcome. There may be cases where the rape was so traumatic that such a thing may not be possible, particularly for someone young, but that is a decision that must be evaluated and counseled and prayed about.

[blueadept]

Unless anti-abortion activists support laws that would charge mothers with murder, I don't think they have much credibility when they call abortion "murder."

With the speakers at the pro-life rally who explained the circumstances that led to them aborting/murdering their children, the love of God and His merciness saved them as attested by their testimonies. Arresting the women on that stage seemed to be the LAST thing anyone at that rally anyone would desire.

I'm glad the Christian message of forgiving reigned supreme at the rally than your viewpoint. Neither side supports such laws.....thank goodness.

[bluebell]

So, at what point does it become human?

I have no idea.

I'm happy knowing that God knows and that's enough for me.