Over 1/3 of women have had abortions?

[erichard]

...Personally, I am opposed to abortions in cases of rape and incest. It seems illogical to me that killing a baby due to the objectionable circumstances of conception makes the act morally acceptable. ...

Hi,

I read what you said a while back and kept thinking about it.

I knew a woman once who was the product of a rape and she was totally against abortion for any circumstances. I used to be totally pro-abortion in case of rape, but I changed my rhetoric after talking with her: If a woman is raped she should be given the option of having the baby or having it aborted. And I would not condemn her if she choose to abort it.

I think this revelation explains why adultery among the Lord's people should be punished by death-- or at least any offspring they have should be aborted.

Behold ye have wondered concerning adultery

being next to murder in Mine eyes.

The murder I speak of is the shedding of

innocent blood, and adultery can be the

corruption

of spirit unto the tenth generation

.

And who can corrupt such except those who

have been sealed up by Mine own ordinances?

For herein is wisdom: search you the

genealogies of Mine worst enemies, and you will

find them descended from those first chosen, and

then fallen through adultery,

and not put to death

.

Thereby providing bodies for those spirits wise

in the ways of corruption and destructions--

masters of mayhem and deceivers of the elect.

For through no other source could they come

but of the weakness of Mine own house.

For corruption decayeth from within, and

Mine enemies are of Mine own house.

Richard

[Jason]

I had to break up the post because there were too many quote blocks.

Did you notice that the numbers from Wikipedia are from other sources?

Perhaps you should have cited those other sources then, rather than wikipedia.

In the year 2000, the US authorities confiscated 1200 metric tons of marijuana. Most of this was from foreign sources. 1,200 metric tons = over 2.5 million pounds. That was just what they caught. Are you really going to tell me that an estimate of 44% of people have used it is too large?

Yes.

Think about those numbers. Even if they caught half of all the illegal drugs, and you and I both know the real number isn't even close, there is still enough weed on the streets to get everyone in America high many times over.

Which doesn't mean that everyone in America is high every day.

Without evidence, what is there to persuade us that your point of view is the correct one?

My arguments are logical. Some of them cannot be supported by research because the issues they aregue are too complex to come to simple conclusions.

Jason, my point of view doesn't really assume anything. The fact is that teen pregnancy rates are much higher than in the Netherlands. The fact is that they also have fewer abortions per teen pregnancy. The fact is that they have less cases of STD infections, by far, than the US.

None of which has anything to say about how often teenagers in the Netherlands are having sex. It only says that they have been more careful in preventing teen pregnancies, abortions, STDs, etc. Again, we are comparing apples to oranges.

Please, identify where I am ignorant.

I was not calling you ignorant. I was saying that you consider my wisdom to be ignorant, but that it's only your opinion, really.

But that's just it. It is only right according to your standards of living.

But it works for us. That means it could work for others.

In reality, there is nothing wrong with having sex in a healthy, committed relationship.

Correct. A true healthy committed relationship is one in which the two partners are married.

Oh yeah, you want a source for LDS women who admit premarital sex...

National Opinion Research Center's Cumulative General Social Survey 1972 - 1988. Articles about it appeared in the Salt Lake City Tribune

I don't believe the study is accurate. 50% of LDS women is simply an unbelievable figure, if that is what the study purports.

[Jason]

More often than not, Wikipedia is accurate.

If you look at the majority of wikipedia aritcles you will see that yes, they usually get which issue Superman died in correct, and a lot of wiki articles are concerned with such trivia. The articles on controversial issues are much less accurate on average.

Again, you don't get to dictate morality to based on religious beliefs. We live in America.

My form of "dictating" involves convincing the people. And my moral judgemens are not based solely on my religious beliefs.

Oh, go ahead and misquote me intentionally. I am sure that is within the rules of this board.

Very well - what were you trying to say? Do you believe the unborn do in fact have some rights?

I don't either, but not everyone should be forced to feel that way.

If the unborn have a right to life then yes, their rights should be protected.

Again, if you don't like abortion, there are easy solutions to bring down the abortion rate that can be implemented immediately. Birth control is easy. Making it more widely available is very easy to do, and it would save this country tons in health care. How is that not a win-win scenario?

Because we don't need more encouragement to have sex outside of marriage. Sex is already being horribly mis-used every day in this nation by millions.

Education on right behavior is the superior approach, since even though it may not be as effective at the immediate consequences of abortion and STDs, it doesn't have the consequence of encouraging immoral and ultimately more harmful behavior.

I mean, you totally have been in their shoes, right? You can empathize with their situation, I'm sure.

The idea that no one who hasn't been in the same circumstances can have a valid opinion if true disproves your own arguments as well as it disproves mine.

In the end, aren't mothers who get abortions doing their babies a favor? I mean, religiously speaking.

No, she's not. A mother who murders her child can't reasonably expect to be sealed to that child and meet that child again in the Celestial Kingdom.

The mother who does her child the best favor, religious speaking, is the one that loves her child and raises it teaching it correct principles, and guides her child to the Celestial Kingdom alongside her, forming an eternal family with the child.

[Tarski]

To my knowledge the Church has not specifically linked abortion to the sin of murder. Which I think is rather gutless on the part of the Church.

Or the church, or someone in a leadership position, has an inkling that the personhood of a fetus is not a forgone conclusion. Abortion isn't murder because it isn't murder! No philosophically respectable concept of personhood would take a recently fertilized ovum as a person. Murder is something done to a person. For example, use of the morning after pill is not abhorrent to thoughtful secular people. In fact, I have never found a person who thinks it abhorrent that wasn't coming from a religious perspective. There are shades of nonpersonhood, though partial personhood, to full personhood.

Who in their right mind would think that use of the morning after pill is to be compared with the murder of a 10 year old.

The challenge we hear is "who decides when a fetus is a person?". Well, the fact that this is hard to answer doesn't change the point. We will have to make a policy and it better not treat a day old fetus as a person. Live with it. Normal first trimester abortions are not to be compared with, much less identified with, murder.

Even the church officially seems to realize this. Good for it.

By the way, have a third of women committed a sin not covered by the atonement??? That is a crowded hell full of some good women.

[bluebell]

Or the church, or someone in a leadership position, has an inkling that the personhood of a fetus is not a forgone conclusion. Abortion isn't murder because it isn't murder! No philosophically respectable concept of personhood would take a recently fertilized ovum as a person. Murder is something done to a person. For example, use of the morning after pill is not abhorrent to thoughtful secular people. In fact, I have never found a person who thinks it abhorrent that wasn't coming from a religious perspective. There are shades of nonpersonhood, though partial personhood, to full personhood.

Who in their right mind would think that use of the morning after pill is to be compared with the murder of a 10 year old.

The challenge we hear is "who decides when a fetus is a person?". Well, the fact that this is hard to answer doesn't change the point. We will have to make a policy and it better not treat a day old fetus as a person. Live with it. Normal first trimester abortions are not to be compared with, much less identified with, murder.

Even the church officially seems to realize this. Good for it.

By the way, have a third of women committed a sin not covered by the atonement??? That is a crowded hell full of some good women.

Again, just as a reminder, the morning after pill is not the same as the abortion pill. It will not abort a pregnancy.

[blueadept]

By the way, have a third of women committed a sin not covered by the atonement??? That is a crowded hell full of some good women.

I don't see a problem considering having an abortion as a mortal sin. I've witnessed too many women (and men) testimonies who have felt God's saving grace even after participating in such an act for me to question God's saving grace. I've been there done that.