Sacred Sexuality and the Law of Chastity

[Daniel2]

Nathair,

Sacred sexuality has been a topic that has intrigued me, as well.

I think others' suggestion of counseling is wise, if sexual intimacy is problematic in your relationship.

On a spiritual and emotional level, I have always loved Jeffrey Holland's talk Of Souls, Symbols, and Sacraments, which he originally gave in 1988, most of which he later repeated fro the pulpit in conference (though retitled, as I recall, as "Sexual Purity") after his ordination as an LDS apostle.

The symbolism he offers that sexual intimacy deals with our souls, is a symbol of union, and may be a sacrament to the divine is breathtaking and thought-provoking.

In addition, one of my favorite books I've read since leaving Mormonism that similarly deals with the topic of sacred sexuality is called Hymns to an Unknown God: Awakening the Spirit in Everyday Life (only one chapter is devoted to sacred sexuality, but it is interesting that the author arrives at very similar conclusions to Holland, albeit from a non-Christian perspective).

Best,

Darin

[Nathair/|\]

Nathair,

Sacred sexuality has been a topic that has intrigued me, as well.

I think others' suggestion of counseling is wise, if sexual intimacy is problematic in your relationship.

On a theoretical level, I have always loved Jeffrey Holland's talk Of Souls, Symbols, and Sacraments, which he originally gave in 1988, most of which he later repeated fro the pulpit in conference (though retitled, as I recall, as "Sexual Purity") after his ordination as an LDS apostle.

The symbolism he offers that sexual intimacy deals with our souls, is a symbol of union, and may be a sacrament to the divine is breathtaking and thought-provoking.

In addition, one of my favorite books I've read since leaving Mormonism that similarly deals with the topic of sacred sexuality is called Hymns to an Unknown God: Awakening the Spirit in Everyday Life (only one chapter is devoted to sacred sexuality, but it is interesting that the author arrives at very similar conclusions to Holland, albeit from a non-Christian perspective).

Best,

Darin

Thanks, I have skimmed President Holland's talk (He was pres. of BYU when he gave it) and am looking forward to studying it in depth when I get over this @#$% cold. I will have to see if my library can gt the other book. Looks interesting. I've read a little on left-handed Tantra and Gnosticism and more on Hermeticism and related disciplines and am interested in what Ideas I can steal that complement the gospel.

Yours under the mystic oaks,

Nathair /|\

[Daniel2]

Thanks, I have skimmed President Holland's talk (He was pres. of BYU when he gave it) and am looking forward to studying it in depth when I get over this @#$% cold. I will have to see if my library can gt the other book. Looks interesting. I've read a little on left-handed Tantra and Gnosticism and more on Hermeticism and related disciplines and am interested in what Ideas I can steal that complement the gospel.

Yours under the mystic oaks,

Nathair /|\

By the way, one other pro-LDS-related resource that was quite popular several years ago is a book called Between Husband and Wife: Gospel Perspectives on Marital Intimacy ("Marital Intimacy" being a more euphemistically tame word for sex...). It's authors were BYU Family Science professors, as I recall (I minored in Family Science back in my time at BYU), and they created quite a stir for writing what is, essentially, a book on sex-- but from a gospel-affirming perspective. It was quite ground-breaking for it's time. You might want to check it out, too.

Darin

[Calm]

I think it is a wise idea to try and approach the issue from a variety of areas. One way to change behaviour is to change the interpretation of that behaviour and finding a different, more appropriate paradigm in which to challenge dysfunctional beliefs and feelings can be helpful.

But I'm afraid my approval of your effort is all I have to offer at the moment, Darin having suggesting the things that occurred to me. Will have to think on it awhile to see if I can remember anything else I've come across that could be helpful. You might want to contact Kerry Shirts as he's likely come across some materials in his searches in Mormon Mysticism.

[CV75]

have a healthier relationship with my eternal companion

As we become whole through the merits of Christ, all things fall into proper place. What we identify or define a specific problem may actually have a root cause that only a relationship with God can ease. Sacred "anything" is attained through this relationship and is often contingent on our attitude toward the perception and understanding of the stewardship at hand. For example, sacred eating is done at sacrament meeting, but can also be enjoined by raising our own food, tithing it, sharing and otherwise showing reverence and gratitude about it. Sometimes the prayerful application of professional attention is in order. Esoteric techniques, often touting a heightened sense of awareness as the solution to particular problems such as sex, are often misused or misdirected (the may offer happiness for a season) or keep someone at a plateau, albeit an enjoyable one, but eventually run counter to that heightened sense of awareness characterized by the companionship of the Holy Spirit.

[Mark Beesley]

I have some Augustinian hang-ups about marital intimacy. In order to overcome them and have a healthier relationship with my eternal companion, I have been researching sacred sexuality and trying to figure out how it relates to the Plan of Salvation. To give an idea of the level I am working at here, have you ever tried to put together a jigsaw puzzle without the picture and where there might be a few pieces from other puzzles mixed in? As you start to put pieces together, you get a concept of what the whole picture must be, but only in part. You can't quite tell how it all fits together. Or, have you ever tried to wear glasses with the wrong prescription?

I have come to suspect that the common pagan/gnostic concept of the sacral king joining with the high priestess of the genius loci in order to bring fertility to the land is an incomplete understanding of what happens when a Queen/High Priestess and her King/High Priest are sealed together in the House of the Lord.

Another maybe piece is that in some hermetic lodges, it is recommended for group work that as close to an even balance between males and females is involved in order to balance the forces. At the level we work at in this world, that can be done away with if the individuals are balanced within themselves: but at the level our Heavenly Parents work at, couldn't that split be even more vital? (If anyone here works with electronics, perhaps they can explain how you need to be more careful designing a computer than a simple flashlight.)

Yours under the blurry oaks,

Nathair /|\

(I am aware of the value of the Law of Chastity in preserving social cohesion, in maintaining healthy families, and in Eternal Increase; but while those are an important part of the larger picture, I would like to focus here on just the kind of thing discussed above.)

I can't recall ever having read something that complicated a rather simple thing as this thread seems to do.

Sexual intimacy between a husband and wife is good. Enjoy it. If it results in a baby, great. If not, enjoy it anyway.

If you're married, and not enjoying it, see a professional. There are no professionals here.

Any other kind of sexual intimacy is bad, even if it feels good. Periodl End of story.

[BCSpace]

You still feel that traducianism is true?

Not at all, and I didn't mean to imply that. Intellectually, I know that my feelings are incorrect, but no arguments have been able to eliminate the completely insane feelings I get.

Just wondering if it was residual belief in nonLDS doctrine. Perhaps you grew up being taught that sex is "dirty" without any sort of differentiation between inside and outside of marriage?

Perhaps it's the internal visuals we apply to the terms we use. For example, while intimacy is sacred, I would go absolutely nuts and probably not be able to perform if, while anticipating, preparing for, and doing the act, I was thinking "churchy" thoughts. So while it's a correct term, I think it could be good come up with something better than "sacred". I think prayer is not good foreplay. Do I come nearer to the mark?

[katherine the great]

If a married person feels guilty after marital relations then you need to do it every day until the guilt leaves you. Really, we are taught that our conscience goes away if we continue to ignore our feelings of guilt so by that reasoning, this method should work.

[Calm]

If a married person feels guilty after marital relations then you need to do it every day until the guilt leaves you. Really, we are taught that our conscience goes away if we continue to ignore our feelings of guilt so by that reasoning, this method should work.

My training in psychology disagrees with you.

[frankenstein]

don't think of sex with your wife as a chore, think of it as something fun, perhaps that will help you get over the "guilt".

What is the "guilt" you experience?

[Nathair/|\]

don't think of sex with your wife as a chore, think of it as something fun, perhaps that will help you get over the "guilt".

What is the "guilt" you experience?

Why does everyone want to talk about the least interesting aspect of the OP?

Yours under the sidetracked oaks,

Nathair /|\

[staccato]

I am so sorry to hear of your intimacy struggle. That's no fun at all.

In reading your OP, my initial reaction was that you are waaaayyy overthinking sex. Before I too send you over to a professional to help you understand why you are feeling guilt for something you should not be feeling guilty about, let me suggest this: think less, feel more.

[DarkScythe]

I do argee with everyone else. Relax and enjoy it. More comfortable you are the better the atomsphere, the better for the both of you.

[frankenstein]

Why does everyone want to talk about the least interesting aspect of the OP?

Yours under the sidetracked oaks,

Nathair /|\

maybe this is your problem. You want some mystical experience to occur from having sex with your wife and your guilt is that your fulfillment of your "duty" leaves you feeling more like a animal than a god.

more importantly that a person married for 9 years, feels guilty for having sex with their spouse, that is very interesting, and why you feel guilty and what you feel guilty about is the root of your issue that magic/mystical sex can not solve.

[TAO]

Intellectually, I know that married couples are supposed to do certain things together, but psychologically, whenever I perform my husbandly duties even after 9 years of marraige, I still feel horribly guilty. ( I still do it, I just feel unhappy about it.)

Yours under the insane oaks,

Nathair /|\

I totally understand Nathair... if I would suggest... when one has to do these 'husbandly duties', focus on her face, not her body. Her joy, not yours. Don't even due it for pleasure... do it because she wants it, or to have children, but leave it at that, and make yourself a servant to her when doing such.

I know it may be hard, but I think it would help one feel less guilty... and yes, even as a 17 year old, I can imagine how one feels guilty because I know I would feel guilty if I were performing those husbandly duties right now. The only way I think I could avoid feeling guilty would be making it into an act of service, I think it would be.

Hope I helped =).

[TAO]

If a married person feels guilty after marital relations then you need to do it every day until the guilt leaves you. Really, we are taught that our conscience goes away if we continue to ignore our feelings of guilt so by that reasoning, this method should work.

I agree with Calmoriah, this would create the result you wouldn't want, that being objectification, which isn't very good.

[TAO]

Can we get back onto the subject of esoteric/magical/ritual perspectives on the LOC?

Yours under the frustrated oaks,

Nathair /|\

Oh sorry... XP.

Actually... I haven't studied the subject much... wish I had more to add... I'm sorry =/.

[Brenda]

I don't understand the subject of this thread.

[Zakuska]

I totally understand Nathair... if I would suggest... when one has to do these 'husbandly duties', focus on her face, not her body. Her joy, not yours. Don't even due it for pleasure... do it because she wants it, or to have children, but leave it at that, and make yourself a servant to her when doing such.

I know it may be hard, but I think it would help one feel less guilty... and yes, even as a 17 year old, I can imagine how one feels guilty because I know I would feel guilty if I were performing those husbandly duties right now. The only way I think I could avoid feeling guilty would be making it into an act of service, I think it would be.

Hope I helped =).

Totally agree with this. But I have a question and it may seem pretty personal. You don't have to answer, but its just something to think about. I hope this isn't to explicit and if the mods deam it is, go ahead and delete it.

Over the past 15 years with my wife I know that if I reach the top before she does and then after she never makes it. I feel really guilty. So what I try to do is focus on her and her pleasure. I also pay attention to myself and what I am feeling and then I try and Idol, some times stopping completely and taking a little break, I try and make myself last for her. There is nothing in the world like, nor anything that brings you closer together as a couple than reaching the top together. And lets face it. How can two happy people who love each other feel guilty, when they are lying in each others arms after something like that?

[TAO]

There is nothing in the world like, nor anything that brings you closer together as a couple than reaching the top together. And lets face it. How can two happy people who love each other feel guilty, when they are lying in each others arms after something like that?

I can definitely see this, but I'm not sure if it would be for me XD. But hey, since I'm 17, I wouldn't really know for sure, XD. I just know what God expects of me if ya' know what I mean ;-).

I think one way perahps of making one not feel guilty, is to realize it isn't 'sex as the world views it'. It should be done in a godly manner, if you know what I mean.

[Zakuska]

I can definitely see this, but I'm not sure if it would be for me XD. But hey, since I'm 17, I wouldn't really know for sure, XD. I just know what God expects of me if ya' know what I mean ;-).

I think one way perahps of making one not feel guilty, is to realize it isn't 'sex as the world views it'. It should be done in a godly manner, if you know what I mean.

Sorry, the question was more geared to Nathair. And maybe I shouldn't have went there.

Im still reading on the Sacred Couple so I haven't much to say about the OP.

[katherine the great]

I agree with Calmoriah, this would create the result you wouldn't want, that being objectification, which isn't very good.

Perhaps but in an otherwise loving marriage (which I assume the OP has) I would rather be the object of my husband's lust than his guilt. Ps. Since you are only 17, perhaps you shouldn't participate in this thread?

[TAO]

Perhaps but in an otherwise loving marriage (which I assume the OP has) I would rather be the object of my husband's lust than his guilt. Ps. Since you are only 17, perhaps you shouldn't participate in this thread?

Yes, agreed on that point. But tbh, I wouldn't want a marriage like that for anything... the Lord expects more of me.

Perhaps I shouldn't look at this thread at that... I'll stay.... but if it gets more explicit, I'll opt out. Let's say due to personal problems I have had in the past, I can relate to the problem abstractly. TAO made mistakes in the past that he regrets... mistakes unrelated to other people, but mistakes nonetheless. Although I won't say more than that.

[Kenngo1969]

In the title, I meant to wright "Law of Chastity." Could one of the Mods change it for me? Thank You.

Did you mean to write "wright"? Or did you mean to "wright" write? Or did you mean to write "write" right? (Perhaps I could help you right a wrong by pointing out that while "wright" and "write" are homophones, it's wrong to write "wright" when you actually mean "write".) Perhaps you're wondering what right I have to point out the homophonic faux pas engendered by the confusion between the words "write" and "wright". You may indeed be right. And so I shall cease and desist. It really is of little consequence whether you intended to write "wright" or whether you intended to write "write." Indeed, you have a right to write however you wish.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, concludes today's episode of "Fun With Homophones". We apologize for the irrelevant diversion (or perhaps it was an irreverent diversion, or maybe both), as well as for the thread-jack. We now return you to your regularly-scheduled, on-topic programming.

Sorry, Nathair. Couldn't resist.

[volgadon]

I once heard a chaste man bemoaning the fact that sexual union is inherently pleasurable. He preferred that there be no physical pleasure at all, so that he could unite with his wife solely to fulfill the command of his Creator: "Be fruitful and multiply."

What he said helped me understand a saying of our rabbis, may their memory be a blessing: "One should hallow oneself during sexual union." I took this to mean that one should sanctify one's thought by eliminating any intention of feeling physical pleasure. One should bemoan the fact that pleasurable sensation is inherent to this act...

Sometime later, God favored me with a gift of grace, granting me understanding of the essence of sexual holiness. The holiness derives precisely from feeling the pleasure. The secret is wondrous, deep, and awesome.

-Baruch ben Abraham of Kosov, Ammud ha-Avodah, as found in pg. 157 of Daniel C. Matt's The Essential Kabbalah.