If you were not LDS....

[TAO]

Very quickly TAO, and thanks for your thoughtful reply. I'll give it all more attention tomorrow if football games or a nap don't get in the way. Its past midnight here now and I need to go.

Yah, same here, really tired, will be getting off soon as well. (my post might be slightly incoherent as of such)

But I can briefly respond to your question about the Holy Spirit. When you suggest that the Spirit is a sense, it is not in the sense (pun necessarily intended) that the word is defined. The word is precise and refers to the five different ways we can naturally experience physical reality.

To me, a sense is something in which I can determine my perceived environment. Not physical reality. Just environment. I say the Spirit may be used as a sense; to determine our surroundings, and what they mean. The brain then relates them and puts it together as best we can.

An experience of the Holy Spirit is beyond nature, supernatural. When St. Paul says that "eye hath not seen and ear hath not heard" he is making direct reference to the two most perfect of the five senses, sight and sound.

This is where I disagree. The spirit is not supernatural - it is very natural; it is part of the world God created, and works by God's laws. The voice of the Spirit gives us a sixth sense, more perfect than the other five, but also harder to use.

I can see how one might consider the Holy Spirit to be analagous to the senses but it would violate, I think, the usual understanding of our "sensual" faculties which involve an ability to detect physical realities within a certain proximity, to also include spiritual knowledge which is mostly or entirely non-physical, or spiritual.

Our sense of taste cannot tell a car is coming if we are standing in the middle of a street. You should use the Spirit for what is meant to be used for.

I have never considered the question before. But since you ask why I don't consider the Spirit "a sense", that is why I never could.

I understand what you mean, but to me, there is no difference. There is only what information my brain receives from input, and it is formulate, be regardless it from my eyes, ears, nose, sense of taste, sense of touch, or the Spirit. All those are valid sources of input, that they are.

[bluebell]

Point taken. There is no consensus. I can certainly back away from saying that this is the way all Mormons think and I retract my sweeping statement.

Thank you, i appreciate that.

Mormons are free to reject the notion that one can arrive at a knowledge of the Creator God from the light of natural reason apart from faith.

I suppose this is true. No one is going to force them to use anything other than faith and no one is going to ask them about it and try to change their minds if they don't agree.

Is this not true for Catholics? MUST they believe that one can arrive at a knowledge of God without faith? What would happen to a Catholic who also believed that faith alone can convince of the truth of the existence of God?

I know that many LDS believe that if God exists, His creation does NOT reveal Him. Their belief in God is gained through their testimony. Clearly, many LDS would believe anyway. Of course I applaud this. What remains to be seen is which side is correct. Are you telling me that the CoJCoLDS teaches that you should know of the existence of God apart from faith? If so, my theory would be mistaken, and I would be happy to discover it to be the case.

It is in our scriptures (Alma 30:44 declares-"The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator."

Moses 6:63-"And behold, all things have their likeness, and all things are created and made to bear record of me, both things which are temporal, and things which are spiritual; things which are in the heavens above, and things which are on the earth, and things which are in the earth, and things which are under the earth, both above and beneath: all things bear record of me."

You will find that this notion that 'all things denote there is a God' to be prevelant in talks, articles from the Ensign, and church lesson manuals.

For most LDS, the Spirit confirms the existence of God which reason has already created. For a few though, there is no doubt that they rely solely upon the Spirit for their testimony because they reason in a way that does not reveal God to them. That is because of something in them, however, and not because the church teaches that is the correct approach.

bluebell, I am just theorizing. I don't know about Spalding or occult allegations or anything else about Book of Mormon origins. I do not take issue with Mormons who propose that Joseph Smith could never have written the Book of Mormon alone. I take those LDS claims at face value without compromising my own faith. How do I explain the Catholic Church with a Book of Mormon that Joseph could never have written unaided? I don't have any doubts about what I believe. I could never believe what Restorationists believe about the Catholic Church. This makes me immune to apostasy theories. So what could explain the LDS phenomenon?

I can appreciate this and i appreciate you admitting that your theories come from your belief that the LDS church IS inferior to the Catholic church. It's a valid and logical approach.

Obviously the very existence of the LDS religions implies that there are teachings or practices in the Catholic church which do not come from God but from satan, so i do not take it personally if Catholics believe the same about some things LDS.

Just as long as the beliefs are correctly explained and understood. Nothing good comes from knocking down straw men (which i know you know and that isn't an accusation).

This is why Catholics insist on the importance of the ability to believe in God even without any religion, without any faith, as St. Paul says in Romans 1, "so that they (who deny God) are without excuse."

Again, LDS believe the same. We believe that the creations of God testify of His existence, though we believe they are not the only things that do such.

Do you think the LDS who would be atheistic are being similarly inconsistent with your principles?

Yes and no.

Obviously our sciptures teach that God is revealed in his creation but the scriptures also teach that not every person is given the same abilities to recognize the things of God. The gifts of the Spirit are not all given to everyone. To some certain gifts are given and to others different gifts are given that the saints, as a whole, can benefit and help each other (Cor. 12).

If some people haven't been given the gift to see God through reason alone, then I don't believe that is anti-biblical or satanic. I believe it is merely an example of the different gifts that God gives His children and how not everyone get's the same ones.

[saemo]

I'd really like to be able to have this discussion without snarkiness or being flippant. Can that be our mutual goal? It won't be possible if the point becomes to see how often we can underhandedly insult one another.

My last question was sincere. I was sincere in wanting clarification before i addressed what you said.

Loaded with preconceptions, and a sense that adhering to what I believe is some how arrogant. So I don't know that it is possible to have a conversation if that is your foundation.

Yes, i understand that, but it seemed that you (and rory) were saying that is a fundamental flaw in mormonism that leads LDS to say 'contradictory things'.

In other words it appeared to me that you were saying that it's not the inner-workings of the person, or the person's personality or life experiences that would lead them to say things you view as 'contradictory' but it's the LDS church itself that leads them to express such things.

Can you see where my confusion comes from?

I don't know that I would call it a flaw, more a fruit. Most LDS people I know are generally devout and very loyal to their church. This loyalty doesn't appear to extend to Jesus Christ. What else would cause a person to view their testimony of Jesus Christ as disposable, if not what they have been taught?

To this constant question of "what if", the Catholic Church exists to bring people to Salvation. Catholics and the majority of Christians are taught to adhere to HIM, not to an ideology. People can come to view religion, either their own or all, as ideologies, but most Christians in this case will either go non-denominational or just be Christian, with no loyalty to any organization or creed.

The testimony of Jesus Christ is given by God, and it is not dependent on an organization. It certainly comes through experience, but that experience should lead to an event, that event is an encounter with HIM, which is an encounter with Truth itself.

That is what is so odd about this thread and the responses to it. LDS responses don't indicate that the encounter with Truth, who is Jesus Christ, has been experienced. For most I know that this has happened, they are like the 10th leper, who after being healed seek out Christ with gratitude. One who has this in their heart can't leave HIM, for any reason. Why would they?

That is an observation, not a judgment.

[bluebell]

One who has this in their heart can't leave HIM, for any reason. Why would they?

That is an observation, not a judgment.

This observation completely negates the possibility that someone can lose their faith in Jesus Christ.

You are teaching that once you have faith, there is nothing that can ever happen or that you can do, to lose it. you have said that it is not possible to leave Him. This appears to be the doctrine of 'once saved, always saved'.

Is this what the Catholic church teaches?

[AngelPalmoni]

I would join many religions probably...

[3DOP]

Thank you, i appreciate that.

I suppose this is true. No one is going to force them to use anything other than faith and no one is going to ask them about it and try to change their minds if they don't agree.

Is this not true for Catholics? MUST they believe that one can arrive at a knowledge of God without faith? What would happen to a Catholic who also believed that faith alone can convince of the truth of the existence of God?

It is in our scriptures (Alma 30:44 declares-"The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator."

Moses 6:63-"And behold, all things have their likeness, and all things are created and made to bear record of me, both things which are temporal, and things which are spiritual; things which are in the heavens above, and things which are on the earth, and things which are in the earth, and things which are under the earth, both above and beneath: all things bear record of me."

You will find that this notion that 'all things denote there is a God' to be prevelant in talks, articles from the Ensign, and church lesson manuals.

For most LDS, the Spirit confirms the existence of God which reason has already created. For a few though, there is no doubt that they rely solely upon the Spirit for their testimony because they reason in a way that does not reveal God to them. That is because of something in them, however, and not because the church teaches that is the correct approach.

I can appreciate this and i appreciate you admitting that your theories come from your belief that the LDS church IS inferior to the Catholic church. It's a valid and logical approach.

Obviously the very existence of the LDS religions implies that there are teachings or practices in the Catholic church which do not come from God but from satan, so i do not take it personally if Catholics believe the same about some things LDS.

Just as long as the beliefs are correctly explained and understood. Nothing good comes from knocking down straw men (which i know you know and that isn't an accusation).

Again, LDS believe the same. We believe that the creations of God testify of His existence, though we believe they are not the only things that do such.

Yes and no.

Obviously our sciptures teach that God is revealed in his creation but the scriptures also teach that not every person is given the same abilities to recognize the things of God. The gifts of the Spirit are not all given to everyone. To some certain gifts are given and to others different gifts are given that the saints, as a whole, can benefit and help each other (Cor. 12).

If some people haven't been given the gift to see God through reason alone, then I don't believe that is anti-biblical or satanic. I believe it is merely an example of the different gifts that God gives His children and how not everyone get's the same ones.

Hey bluebell.

Great job. Thank you.

Especially this: Moses 6:63

-"And behold, all things have their likeness, and all things are created and made to bear record of me, both things which are temporal, and things which are spiritual; things which are in the heavens above, and things which are on the earth, and things which are in the earth, and things which are under the earth, both above and beneath: all things bear record of me."

I am happy to apparently have been wrong about this. "...all things bear record of me." This means that by digging in the earth, gazing into the starry skies, and examining the wonders that are visible right before us...unless our minds have been corrupted, we will see God's record of His existence in His creation. The vocation of the true natural scientist is to reveal more and more the revelation of God in nature. From a pure LDS view which agrees with this passage, it is false science and corrupt philosophy that would begin to devise ways of interpreting the natural data so as to deny that "all things bear record of me."

It is an article of faith for Catholics that by the light of nature, men of ordinary talents and gifts are responsible and accountable for arriving at mere belief in a Creator God:

If anyone says that the one, true God, our creator and lord, cannot be known with certainty from the things that have been made, by the natural light of human reason: let him be anathema.

---Session Three, Canon Two of the First Vatican Council, On Revelation, April 24, 1870

To believe that the mere knowledge of God as Creator is dependent on the gift of faith alone, is clearly to deny the Catholic faith. But this teaching of 1870 all grew out of 18th and 19th Century Rationalism which sought to separate the two spheres of knowledge, faith and reason so separately, that they could contradict. That is Adam and Eve are true in the world of faith but not in the world of reason. God is true by faith, but not by reason. This was perceived, and accurately so, as a dangerous worldview that skews the very way we perceive ourselves before God as creatures able to discern His presence and be responsible before Him as creatures.

And so...rather than just quote Rom. 1, the Church stomped on the whole idea with an anathema. You are not Catholic if you believe God placed us in a world in which "all things do not bear record of me." I hope you can see why I proposed sinister motives to a religion that would make God so well hidden, that it would be His fault, rather than our own if we should claim to be atheistic or agnostic on the grounds that He left us precious little evidence. As I would interpret it, for believers in that verse from Moses, LDS principles confirm that of Vatican I. Seeing that, I withdraw my proposition that Mormonism is a confusing religion because it posits that natural truth can contradict supernatural truth.

I could not be a faithful Catholic while denying the canon cited above. I would be compelled to leave the Catholic Church. If I were LDS and arrived at the place that I rejected Moses 6:63 in favor of modern science and philosophy, perhaps it is permissible, but the groundwork is there to eventually develop a clearer boundary that cannot be crossed.

3DOP

[Mansquatch]

Agnostic

[Anakin7]

Eastern Orthodox

We would be kindred spirits !.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[Anakin7]

Methodist

Another Kindred spirit.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[Anakin7]

Was there a question in there, somewhere?

The question was where would we be if we were not LDS, and the answers to your question have lead us to where we are now in this thread.

What makes you think we're off topic?

[SilverKnight]

I'm with Ceeboo here. I'm going like this at the number of people who say they would leave Christianity. Seriously, for all the people who say LDS follow Jesus Christ, the option to ditch following Him should be zero.

Many times losing faith in mormonism corresponds with a simultaneous loss in faith in the Christian God.

When I find evidence that LDS leaders were not inspired - I find just as much evidence that Christian leaders are just as uninspired.

When I find evidence that Book of Mormon is uninspired - I find just as much evidence that Bible is uninspired.

When I learn prayer does not work in a mormon church - I assume that it's not going to miraculously start working in a Christian church.

When I decide that many doctrines in mormonism are abhorrent - I decide just as many (or more) doctrines in Christianity are equally abhorrent.

When I reject the supernatural miracles of Mormonism - I find little reason to believe the supernatural miracles of Catholicism.

Are you getting it yet?

If Mormonism is not it then Jesus Christ is not it either?

No it's more like this:

Once I conclude Mormon Christianity is false, then I need some pretty good reasons to believe Catholic/Protestant/Etc. Christianity is true.

Your problem is the same old tired talking point that mormons believe in a 'different Jesus' and their faith is in their church and not really in Jesus.

And you seem to be under some delusion that no one has ever apostatized from Catholicism/Christianity.

The number of Catholics that lose faith in Christianity IN ONE DAY likely equals all the mormon apostates in a year - just due to the comparative sizes of the two churches.

What is the thinking here?

I've told you five times already:

The same criticisms and skepticisms that lead one to conclude Mormonism is false also lead one to conclude ALL religion are man-made myths, and that Christ, if he was a real person at all, was a mere teacher of morality - not some divine being.

That said, there are plenty of mormon apostates that remain Christians.

Just as there are many of Catholic apostates that remain Christians.

[LeSellers]

I keep wondering why people keep asking this question.

Hypotheticals are not very enlightening because we don't know what we wouldn't know. If there were no Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I wouldn't be me; there is a high probability that I would not have been born at all.

Were we to assume that the person answering this question would be expecting a Restoration, or would have a nascent belief in a Messiah/Redeemer, which is problematic in and of itself, my preference would be for an Orthodox church. I can't handle the Roman church's bloody and wicked history (but I know little of Orthodoxy history, and might not be able to handle that, either, if I did). The reason is that I could not accept an authority-bereft church like the Baptists or Seventh Day Adventists. I could not accept, either, the Calvinist god: one cruel, arbitrary, capricious, and one, above all without purpose or reason.

I am so grateful for the Restoration and for God's having chosen the boy, Joseph Smith, to give us the truths and power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Lehi

[Ahab]

No, it is not what I said. Maybe it is what you wanted me to say?

LDS are saying contradicting things, is what I'm saying.

1) I have a testimony of Jesus Christ

2) I'd be something other than a Christian

Maybe it would help you if you focused on trying to understand each one of us, individually, even if one LDS doesn't agree with another LDS.

I'd at least like you to be able to understand me, which you don't at this point, even if you do not agree with me.

Here's another chance for you to try to catch on:

The question posed for us LDS is: Where would you be if you were not in the LDS Church?

This is my answer:

1) God has told me Jesus is the Christ

2) God has told me Jesus has a Church

3) God has told me The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the one and only true Church of Jesus Christ.

By faith, and also by reason, if I were somehow in a situation where there was no "LDS" Church, or if I was not a member of it, I would not be a member of the true Church of Jesus Christ and it really wouldn't matter which one of the apostate churches I was a member of, then, because all of them (except for the one true Church) is an apostate church/group/organization... including yours, saemo, even though you think/believe/claim that church is the one true Church of Jesus Christ, even though it isn't.

Now try asking God where you would be, and what you would be, if you were not in the true Church of Jesus Christ.

[saemo]

Ahab, I appreciate the effort, but it doesn't help. Seems LDS are at heart, atheists. So be it.

[TAO]

Ahab, I appreciate the effort, but it doesn't help. Seems LDS are at heart, atheists. So be it.

Na, not atheist. Just all or nothing sorta people at heart.

[blueadept]

Na, not atheist. Just all or nothing sorta people at heart.

A very true statement IMHO. While I've shared my own testimony of Christ in my life just as my wife has shared hers, I'm still of the opinion that Mormonism appears to be all or nothing proposition for its members.

For this reason, at times, LDS can be very difficult to discuss religion with......just as Ahab has called me obstinate in this thread....

[TAO]

A very true statement IMHO. While I've shared my own testimony of Christ in my life just as my wife has shared hers, I'm still of the opinion that Mormonism appears to be all or nothing proposition for its members.

For this reason, at times, LDS can be very difficult to discuss religion with......just as Ahab has called me obstinate in this thread....

Yah, that we can be. I'm sorry if you get the blunt end of it sometimes =/.

[Sky]

Jumping in to this discussion a little late

[Libs]

Or to put it another way, I want the whole pie - not just a slice!

I'm coming to the realization that the "whole pie" probably won't be found in any particular church.

Connecting with God is a very personal experience, I think, and although religions can give us some pointers and inspiration, the true spiritual experience or connection with God will happen on a very personal level, IMHO. I do think it can be detrimental to get too attached to a physical church. We then lean on church authority, rather than our own internal Holy Spirit Presence (which can be a wonderful guide, if we allow it)..

[bluebell]

Ahab, I appreciate the effort, but it doesn't help. Seems LDS are at heart, atheists. So be it.

Saemo, could you answer my question from your last response to me?

Thanks.

[blueadept]

Saemo, could you answer my question from your last response to me?

Thanks.

Since I've met saemo and believe I know her intentions, permit me to take a stab at this.

This observation completely negates the possibility that someone can lose their faith in Jesus Christ.

You are teaching that once you have faith, there is nothing that can ever happen or that you can do, to lose it.

LDS and Catholics have the same understanding on this issue. Keep in mind the analogy that Christ is on one side of the door while we are on the other side with the door knob on our side. It's up to us through free will to let Christ into our lives.

IOW, this wasn't what saemo was refering to...

you have said that it is not possible to leave Him.

Just as LDS have been given the spiritual testimony of Christ through the LDS church, I believe saemo is refering to something similar in her belief of Christ that nothing could ever take that away regardless of whatever happens in our church. Look at it as 'God first' no matter what may or may not happen in the RCC. That will always be there for her as my experience with her permits me to comment.

This appears to be the doctrine of 'once saved, always saved'.

Is this what the Catholic church teaches?

Catholics do not believe this but I can respect why you've inferred it.

I hope this helped.

[Ceeboo]

While I've shared my own testimony of Christ in my life just as my wife has shared hers, I'm still of the opinion that Mormonism appears to be all or nothing proposition for its members.

Indeed! This has been my experience as well.

To add, the testimony of some of my LDS friends (At least to some degree) seems to be a testimony that is largely cemented in The LDS Church and or Joseph Smith.

Anyhooo, just my take.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[blueadept]

Indeed! This has been my experience as well.

To add, the testimony of some of my LDS friends (At least to some degree) seems to be a testimony that is largely cemented in The LDS Church and or Joseph Smith.

Anyhooo, just my take.

Peace,

Ceeboo

In talking with LDS, you have to remember that the BoM is another testament in Jesus Christ; therefore, it's centered in Christ from their perspective.

As my oldest LDS daughter put it, if you believe in the BoM OR that Joseph Smith IS who he says he is, the result is that you believe in the whole thing that IS Christ-centered from their POV.

[TAO]

Connecting with God is a very personal experience, I think, and although religions can give us some pointers and inspiration, the true spiritual experience or connection with God will happen on a very personal level, IMHO.

Very true.

I do think it can be detrimental to get too attached to a physical church. We then lean on church authority, rather than our own internal Holy Spirit Presence (which can be a wonderful guide, if we allow it)..

*shrugs* When God tells me a church is the correct church, I listen.

[SilverKnight]

Seems LDS are at heart, atheists. So be it.

I'm still of the opinion that Mormonism appears to be all or nothing proposition for its members.

To add, the testimony of some of my LDS friends (At least to some degree) seems to be a testimony that is largely cemented in The LDS Church and or Joseph Smith.

:banghead:

Okay, I have a little experiment for you three:

Go find a message board for unbelieving and former Catholics - there should be a lot of them, about 100x the number of ex-mormon boards.

Ask them why, when they lost faith in the Catholic Church, why they did not remain Christian.

Maybe it was because they were always 'atheists at heart', maybe it was because the Catholic Church is an 'all or nothing' proposition for its members, maybe it's because their testimony is 'largely cemented' in the Catholic Church and or The Pope.

Or maybe, the reasons might be the reasons why that ALL people of religion lose faith, LDS and Catholic included.

The reasons you all seem to be ignoring in order to preserve your misinformed and hypocritical stereotype of LDS as you arrogantly gaze down from the vaulted windows of the basilica.

I know that 'LDS have faith in Joseph Smith, not Jesus' is a practically incurable metastatic cancer you all suffer from, but it's been demonstrated a thousand times that this is an unsupported, untenable and untrue belief.