If you were not LDS....

[Ahab]

This discussion has gone beyond the scope of why I came to this site. I came to share my perspective on things as a non-LDS Book of Mormon Believer and try to build some understanding among the Book of Mormon believers in the various Restoration churches, not to contend about LDS sociological issues.

You're not going to be able to realize your goal without running into a recurring speed bump here.

There is only ONE church of the Restoration and every other church is in apostasy, even if they're still a likeable bunch of people.

Now on with the show.

Your brother in Christ.

You're not my brother in Christ if you are not LDS. You're my brother by virtue of the fact that we're both children of our Father in heaven, and also children of Adam, but until you become a faithful member of the true Church of Christ which is the same church as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you will not be my brother in Christ.

And btw, I've heard similar statements to the one I'm making on Catholic radio programs by people who are members of the Catholic church and believe the same thing I believe, in principle, and even though I know they're wrong because I know they're not in the right Church, I applaud them for standing up for the principle and making it known to others.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

You're not going to be able to realize your goal without running into a recurring speed bump here.

There is only ONE church of the Restoration and every other church is in apostasy, even if they're still a likeable bunch of people.

Now on with the show.

You're not my brother in Christ if you are not LDS. You're my brother by virtue of the fact that we're both children of our Father in heaven, and also children of Adam, but until you become a faithful member of the true Church of Christ which is the same church as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you will not be my brother in Christ.

And btw, I've heard similar statements to the one I'm making on Catholic radio programs by people who are members of the Catholic church and believe the same thing I believe, in principle, and even though I know they're wrong because I know they're not in the right Church, I applaud them for standing up for the principle and making it known to others.

My goal is to build understanding not to convert you to my views or another church. The world could do with a little more understanding among people, especially among those who cherish the name of Jesus Christ and the second witness of Him in the Book of Mormon.

Whether or not you consider me your brother in Christ, I consider you mine. I love you and hope to work side by side with you in building the promised city, the New Jerusalem.

[blueadept]

You're not my brother in Christ if you are not LDS. You're my brother by virtue of the fact that we're both children of our Father in heaven, and also children of Adam, but until you become a faithful member of the true Church of Christ which is the same church as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you will not be my brother in Christ.

Ahab....

And btw, I've heard similar statements to the one I'm making on Catholic radio programs by people who are members of the Catholic church and believe the same thing I believe, in principle, and even though I know they're wrong because I know they're not in the right Church, I applaud them for standing up for the principle and making it known to others.

...I'm glad this opinion is a minority and doesn't reflect the love for our fellow man.

Your brother in Christ....

[Ahab]

My goal is to build understanding not to convert you to my views or another church.

Do you understand what I said? If so, then we're both developing an understanding of each other, aren't we. (rhetorical question)

The world could do with a little more understanding among people, especially among those who cherish the name of Jesus Christ and the second witness of Him in the Book of Mormon.

I'm totally fine with you trying to understand me and my beliefs. Knock yourself out.

I think I understand your perspective, too, and not only do I not agree with you, but I'll also tell you why and how I do not agree.

Just try to understand that, and I'll be happy.

Whether or not you consider me your brother in Christ, I consider you mine.

I don't, and the fact that you do shows me you are willing to believe something which is not true.

I love you and hope to work side by side with you in building the promised city, the New Jerusalem.

I love you too, bro, but loving you doesn't mean I have to agree with you.

And yes, I do hope you will also somehow end up in the same place I am going.

[SilverKnight]

You're not my brother in Christ if you are not LDS.

What?!?

You're my brother by virtue of the fact that we're both children of our Father in heaven, and also children of Adam, but until you become a faithful member of the true Church of Christ which is the same church as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you will not be my brother in Christ.

Disgusting.

BoMluvr offers the olive branch and you spit on it with your condescending self righteousness.

Well here's one mormon who accepts that token fellowship regardless of religious affiliation.

[Ahab]

What?!?

Once you correctly understand the ins and outs of how someone is born again in Jesus Christ, you may then understand the truth in what I said.

Until then, you won't.

[SilverKnight]

Once you correctly understand the ins and outs of how someone is born again in Jesus Christ, you may then understand the truth in what I said.

Until then, you won't.

You are perhaps the most counterproductive person on this board when it comes to ecumenism and having respectful dialogue with those not of our faith.

You are an embarrassment.

[Ahab]

Your brother in Christ....

Are you LDS now?

I see you're now saying you're a Former Dual Faith... whatever.

Does that mean you have finally become a member of the one true church of Jesus Christ, along with your wife?

If so, welcome aboard. If not, I hope that day will come for you sometime in the future... and No, I'm not trying to push you one way or the other.

[Ahab]

You are perhaps the most counterproductive person on this board when it comes to ecumenism and having respectful dialogue with those not of our faith.

You are an embarrassment.

Is this your best example of what it means for you to show your love to someone?

Tsk tsk.

Sorry, I just don't feel any of it coming from you.

[Ceeboo]

As if this thread wasn't already a real treat-------------------------It's getting more and more clubish and mind-bending with each post.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[Ahab]

As if this thread wasn't already a real treat-------------------------It's getting more and more clubish and mind-bending with each post.

Peace,

Ceeboo

Again, the question posed is where we would be if we weren't in the LDS church.

I've seen what I was like before I became a member, and I really do not want to go backwards, although to you that may seem to be a step in the right direction.

[TAO]

And I suppose Autism rates in Utah are higher because LDS familes are being cursed?

Actually, ya' know, I think this would be a blessing - growing up Autistic has taught me many many things about life. It isn't easy. But it sure teaches you well.

=D.

[TAO]

As if this thread wasn't already a real treat-------------------------It's getting more and more clubish and mind-bending with each post.

Peace,

Ceeboo

Agreed, that it is.

[Jeff K.]

Believe me I know, I grew up LDS outside of Utah. Boy, I am glad I did. But that doesn't take away my experience in seeing many LDS folks struggle with confronting any cultural issues that they perceive may make "the church" look less then perfect.

I have yet to see how the cultural differences in different wards make the church look bad, and believe me, I have seen major cultural distinctions both inside and outside the US.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I have yet to see how the cultural differences in different wards make the church look bad, and believe me, I have seen major cultural distinctions both inside and outside the US.

While I appreciate your response to my post, I have decided to end my participation in this particular thread.

God Bless.

[Martin.Harris]

I would look into Judaism or Secular Humanism and just be a nice guy.

[Ceeboo]

I've seen what I was like before I became a member

Hey Ahab,

Care to share what you were like before you became a "member"?

Peace,

Ceeboo

[Ahab]

Hey Ahab,

Care to share what you were like before you became a "member"?

Peace,

Ceeboo

No thank you. I'd rather not risk the possibility of turning into a pillar of salt, even if it might be some of the salt of this Earth.

[Katzpur]

If I were not A Member Of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints I would would Worship the Lord and Be Eastern Orthodox. Where would you attend ?. As for other posters who are not LDS here if you were not a member of the Faith/Church you attend where would you attend to Worship The Lord?

If I were to remain Christian, it would definitely be Eastern Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism. However, I almost think that I would have to reject Christianity in general in order to leave Mormonism. If that were the case, and I decided that Christianity was not for me, I would undoubtedly become a member of the Baha'i Faith.

[Sophocles]

A lot of mainstream Christians express surprise when people who leave Mormonism end up leaving Christianity all together. But this shouldn't be surprising. It's easy to confuse people's own religious foundations with those of the religions themselves.

How many Christians, upon learning that Jesus was not the Messiah, would fall back on the Old Testament and embrace Judaism? Just because the New Testament is bogus doesn't mean the Old Testament is, after all. But that's not how most Christians approach their religion. They believe in Jesus first, and all other beliefs stem from that. They only believe in the Old Testament because Jesus did, not the other way around.

I think a lot of Mormons are the same way with the LDS Church. Sure, some started out as Christians, and chose Mormonism because they felt it was the best expression or practice of their Christian faith. If Mormonism fails to live up to their expectations, they might go in search of another Christian faith, with their belief in Jesus firmly intact.

But many Mormons do not approach their religion that way. Having been born into it, they believe in the church first and foremost, and their faith in Jesus Christ stems from that belief. They believe in Jesus because Joseph Smith did, not the other way around. If Joseph Smith and the LDS Church are wrong, then all resulting beliefs are up for grabs. There is no reason to favor one over the other, and suddenly anything from Buddhism to Agnosticism become equally viable alternatives with mainstream Christianity, Islam, etc.

[ELF1024]

But many Mormons do not approach their religion that way. Having been born into it, they believe in the church first and foremost, and their faith in Jesus Christ stems from that belief. They believe in Jesus because Joseph Smith did, not the other way around. If Joseph Smith and the LDS Church are wrong, then all resulting beliefs are up for grabs. There is no reason to favor one over the other, and suddenly anything from Buddhism to Agnosticism become equally viable alternatives with mainstream Christianity, Islam, etc.

I strongly disagree with your idea that we only believe in Jesus because Joseph Smith did.

I think we tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

It isn't as simple as just yanking Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon out from under people when the decide the church is false. The entire Church is built around the idea of Jesus Christ directly leading the church through the prophet. If you lose faith in the Church, it can easily follow that nothing you believed was true, that Jesus wasn't the head of the church, and there is no Deity.

I know of very few people who have left the church because of an issue over something like the Pearl of Great Price, or the Book of Mormon. Most people in the church have a strong faith of the Book of Mormon, and thereby a faith in Joseph Smith as a Prophet. If you believe in Joseph Smith as a Prophet, you tend to take the rest of the Doctrine on faith.

Most of the people I know who have left the Church have left because they were offended by a member of the ward or Bishopric. It's not generally over a doctrinal issue or anything tangible.

If the Church was true then "THAT PERSON" wouldn't have been called to be in the Bishopric... or something to that effect.

[saemo]

I'm with Ceeboo here. I'm going like this at the number of people who say they would leave Christianity. Seriously, for all the people who say LDS follow Jesus Christ, the option to ditch following Him should be zero.

If Mormonism is not it then Jesus Christ is not it either?

What is the thinking here?

[Ahab]

A lot of mainstream Christians express surprise when people who leave Mormonism end up leaving Christianity all together. But this shouldn't be surprising. It's easy to confuse people's own religious foundations with those of the religions themselves.

How many Christians, upon learning that Jesus was not the Messiah, would fall back on the Old Testament and embrace Judaism? Just because the New Testament is bogus doesn't mean the Old Testament is, after all. But that's not how most Christians approach their religion. They believe in Jesus first, and all other beliefs stem from that. They only believe in the Old Testament because Jesus did, not the other way around.

I think a lot of Mormons are the same way with the LDS Church. Sure, some started out as Christians, and chose Mormonism because they felt it was the best expression or practice of their Christian faith. If Mormonism fails to live up to their expectations, they might go in search of another Christian faith, with their belief in Jesus firmly intact.

But many Mormons do not approach their religion that way. Having been born into it, they believe in the church first and foremost, and their faith in Jesus Christ stems from that belief. They believe in Jesus because Joseph Smith did, not the other way around. If Joseph Smith and the LDS Church are wrong, then all resulting beliefs are up for grabs. There is no reason to favor one over the other, and suddenly anything from Buddhism to Agnosticism become equally viable alternatives with mainstream Christianity, Islam, etc.

Just when I thought you were going to bring up a point I thought was a good point to bring up, you failed to follow through with your logic and apply it to any and all people.

This is what you should have said, instead:

A lot of mainstream Christians express surprise when people who leave Mormonism end up leaving Christianity all together. But this shouldn't be surprising. It's easy to confuse people's own religious foundations with those of the religions themselves.

How many Christians, upon learning that Jesus was not the Messiah, would fall back on the Old Testament and embrace Judaism? Just because the New Testament is might be bogus in identifying Jesus as the Christ, that doesn't wouldn't necessarily mean the Old Testament is wrong in saying a Christ will come, after all. But that's not how most Christians approach their religion. They believe in Jesus first, and all other beliefs stem from that belief. They only believe in the Old Testament because Jesus did, not the other way around.

I think a lot of Mormons are the same way with the LDS Church. Sure, some started out as Christians, and chose Mormonism because they felt it was the best expression or practice of their Christian faith, but where would they go if they found out "Mormonism" was false since all of it is based upon Jesus Christ and his teachings through his prophets, both ancient and modern?

But many Mormons do not approach their religion that way. Having been born into the faith (or body of believers), they believe (and have been taught to believe and have faith in) the church Jesus Christ first and foremost, and their faith in what was inspired by Jesus Christ stems from that belief. They believe in Jesus because Joseph Smith did they have a personal assurance from God that Jesus is the Christ, independent of what anyone else has told them. If Joseph Smith and the LDS Church God is wrong, then all resulting beliefs are up for grabs, and suddenly anything from Buddhism to Agnosticism become equally viable alternatives with mainstream Christianity, Islam, etc.

If they can't trust what God has told them, who else can they trust?

[Ahab]

I'm with Ceeboo here. I'm going like this at the number of people who say they would leave Christianity. Seriously, for all the people who say LDS follow Jesus Christ, the option to ditch following Him should be zero.

If Mormonism is not it then Jesus Christ is not it either?

What is the thinking here?

It has to do with why we are members of the true Church of Jesus Christ, saemo.

Contrary to popular opinion, we're members because God has told us:

1) Jesus is the Christ

2) Jesus has a Church

3) The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true Church of Jesus Christ

Do you get it now?

Our faith in items 1-3 above is based on the faith God has given to us in assuring us that those things are true, and to not believe that would be to not believe God.

[saemo]

It has to do with why we are members of the true Church of Jesus Christ, saemo.

Contrary to popular opinion, we're members because God has told us:

1) Jesus is the Christ

2) Jesus has a Church

3) The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true Church of Jesus Christ

Do you get it now?

Our faith in items 1-3 above is based on the faith God has given to us in assuring us that those things are true, and to not believe that would be to not believe God.

I have the same faith in 1 and 2. Certainly I don't believe it is possible for Christ's Church to fail. The hypothesis is if it did (so make believe for me) what would I do. I have to admit I took the sly way out, because most here think of the Catholic Church as Roman Catholic. The churches I listed as going to are also Catholic Churches, 100% Christs' Church.

But if for some reason there was some odd thing that Christ's Church (for me this means Catholicism) did not exist, I would find a group of believers who held the same belief as I, in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit...the Trinity. I would in no way think, "wow, I can't follow Jesus any more". I would find a way to do it, come hell or high water!