If you were not LDS....

[TAO]

Even though I disagree with some LDS teachings I never thought I would be disturbed by LDS thought process, but this is disturbing to me. The "LDS or nothing" attitude and the arrogant manner in which it has been pronounced by some, is troubling. Would you really reject God and the Savior if you couldn't have the LDS Church? Really?

I understand... but I must say in all truth, I'm not trying to be arrogant or to trouble you with what I am saying. I truly mean it, and I know one may ask, "how can you say other churches have 'some good' in them, and then refuse to join one of them if the LDS church did not exist?" And I say, it's because of the way my mind works. There is the fullness of the truth, and there is what is not the fullness. The LDS church is the fullness. If it didn't exist, the promptings of the spirit would lead me to no other church - I would worship God on the terms dictated by the Spirit alone.

And without the Book of Mormon here to begin with... I wouldn't have considered the necessary questions to have faith at all, that I wouldn't have. Without the revelation in the book, I would be back where I was, stuck in unbelief, and a lack of understanding.

So if the LDS church randomly vanished off of the earth on this date, leaving only me here, and nobody with memories of it, I would worship independently. If it didn't exist at all during history, I wouldn't have considered believing in the first place.

I know it may be difficult to understand - but nothing compares to the gospel of truth. If it randomly vanished off the earth without a trace, I would not be able to abandon my Lord, my God, and my Redeemer, I would not be able to abandon the gospel of pure and righteous truth.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I understand... but I must say in all truth, I'm not trying to be arrogant or to trouble you with what I am saying. I truly mean it, and I know one may ask, "how can you say other churches have 'some good' in them, and then refuse to join one of them if the LDS church did not exist?" And I say, it's because of the way my mind works. There is the fullness of the truth, and there is what is not the fullness. The LDS church is the fullness. If it didn't exist, the promptings of the spirit would lead me to no other church - I would worship God on the terms dictated by the Spirit alone.

And without the Book of Mormon here to begin with... I wouldn't have considered the necessary questions to have faith at all, that I wouldn't have. Without the revelation in the book, I would be back where I was, stuck in unbelief, and a lack of understanding.

So if the LDS church randomly vanished off of the earth on this date, leaving only me here, and nobody with memories of it, I would worship independently. If it didn't exist at all during history, I wouldn't have considered believing in the first place.

I know it may be difficult to understand - but nothing compares to the gospel of truth. If it randomly vanished off the earth without a trace, I would not be able to abandon my Lord, my God, and my Redeemer, I would not be able to abandon the gospel of pure and righteous truth.

I find it interesting that your belief in the Book of Mormon is tied to the LDS Church. If you had been given the Book of Mormon by missionaries from another Book of Mormon believing church, would God have given you the witness of that book or would he have lied because the 'right church" didn't give it to you? If you got the Book of Mormon, and received that witness, from that other church would you have believed that their church was the 'true church" because they are the ones who introduced it to you?

Because I am not so tied to the "only true church" mentality I have been able to read miraculous stories by other Book of Mormon believers on how the Lord opened doors for them to bring the Restoration into other lands.

It is ALL about Jesus, it has only BEEN about Jesus, and it will only BE about Jesus. Worshipping our organizations is a folly and a distraction.

[Anakin7]

BookofMormonLuvr are you a Restoration LDS ?, if so which offshoot ?. You wouldnt happen to be familiar with Lynn Ridenhour would you ?. Just asking.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[TAO]

I find it interesting that your belief in the Book of Mormon is tied to the LDS Church. If you had been given the Book of Mormon by missionaries from another Book of Mormon believing church, would God have given you the witness of that book or would he have lied because the 'right church" didn't give it to you? If you got the Book of Mormon, and received that witness, from that other church would you have believed that their church was the 'true church" because they are the ones who introduced it to you?

Because I am not so tied to the "only true church" mentality I have been able to read miraculous stories by other Book of Mormon believers on how the Lord opened doors for them to bring the Restoration into other lands.

It is ALL about Jesus, it has only BEEN about Jesus, and it will only BE about Jesus. Worshipping our organizations is a folly and a distraction.

I was born Mormon, but I never actually considered religion till like 10th grade. I was never 'converted' until then - and even so, it was without adult guidance - I chose to read and seek on my own. For me, talking with the Lord to gain a testimony is not something I can let other people do, I must do it myself. Because I think incredibly differently than most other people, I must do the reading and seeking myself; the book must become personal.

I received a witness not only of the Book of Mormon, but also of the truth of the LDS church. However, the former came first - I didn't attempt the second till the former had been done. I have a particularly strong witness of President Monson in terms of Church Presidents, so yah, I'm sure this is the right church.

I'm not tied up to "the only true church" BoMLvr, I'm tied to "acting as God expects me to act". If the church goes hither and thither, I won't belong to it, but it has not. Perhaps one should listen to President Monson talk at conference; indeed, listen to him deeply and profoundly; his words are not of this world. He speaks of things much greater indeed. I don't think all hear it though - but I do. I hear the words not only in his talk, but implied by his talks, the true and deeper meaning and purpose behind them.

I don't really care about the world very much to be honest. I don't really care about other people's opinions either - I do what I can to make them happy, for I like happy people, but beyond that, they are hazy to me. It is in the backlight, away from center stage. In the center stage is the fullness of the gospel. The millenialized, celestial, exalted gospel. After discovering God's existence and identity, I have given up all other wants save one. That want is in my sig:

Oh, the glorious day approaches!

The day I will find myself in the temple!

The day, where I will lose myself to my God and my spouse!

The day, where in my everlasting service, I will be born again!

My want is simply to be sealed to a worthy spouse who I can sacrifice my entire being for. That is all I want. I do not want a marriage the way the world sees it - full of lust, sex, and objectification. I want a celestial marriage. I want a marriage that is not corrupted by that which is wrong.

Some may say I'm a dreamer. Other say I live outside of this world. But to me, it doesn't matter, they are in the backlight. Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, and their gospel are all that truly matter to me now. I do not care to live a life of this world. For there is a better life to come. I look off to the future, and prepare myself for it.

Some may call me foolish. But I'm not. I'm simply focused on what matters most. To serve the Lord. For he is worth serving. And to obtain that marriage which he has promised if I obey his commandments. For that marriage will surpass the ordinary ones that are so mundane, if I live correctly.

Yes... I will always try to live by my 'ideals'... for me, there is but black and white. Nothing else. No gray.

[Garden Girl]

I hate to see all the agnostic/atheist stuff out of you guys. What do you think you should have believed in 1750 when there wasn't a Restored Gospel?

3DOP

Hello 3DOP...

What do I think I would have believed when there wasn't a restored gospel? Well, probably like the Christians of the day, perhaps a little confused by all the different denominations...

The difference for LDS today is, I believe, that there is a restored gospel and our light of Christ has become so much brighter than in 1750 for instance... and if Christ's true church as restored were not in existence, where would we go when we know the difference? As I said, I'd probably believe much like I do today, but look more toward nature and quiet one-on-one prayer, for finding peace of heart (nature meaning being able to walk on the beach, etc., while praying and pondering). I wouldn't be able to just go out and join any old Christian church... not when I've had what I believe to be the restored gospel of Christ... why do you think it would be easy to do so? To me, the LDS Church isn't just an "organization"... it is a revealed and restored set of doctrines/revelations/authority/policies from God to his children that speak to my heart as the fullness of the gospel... how could I go somewhere else...

I find it very disheartening the so many LDS members idolize their organization so much that being agnostic or atheist appeals to them more then being with another Christian organization. It is Jesus Christ that should reign in our hearts, not a church organization. Is Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior nothing without the LDS organization, does His atonement not count if their is no LDS Church? Very Sad.

Hello BoML... I think you misunderstand... it is Jesus Christ that reigns in LDS hearts, and is the cornerstone of our faith... but he restored priesthood authority... and there was organization in the early Church with the offices of apostle, prophets, pastors (bishops), teachers (Eph 4:11-16). In latter days, this organization was also restored and our current offices of prophets, apostles, bishops, are part of that, and LDS are greatly thankful for this. But we certainly don't idolize the organization as you suggest.

Knowing what I know and have testimony of through the Spirit, it would be difficult for me to seriously consider any other "church" rather than LDS.

I may be interpreting the original question incorrectly... I'm approaching it from the standpoint of suddently the Church not being here after I've been a member... where would or could I go? Certainly it would be Christian, but maybe a non-denominational.

GG

[ELF1024]

I find it very disheartening the so many LDS members idolize their organization so much that being agnostic or atheist appeals to them more then being with another Christian organization. It is Jesus Christ that should reign in our hearts, not a church organization. Is Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior nothing without the LDS organization, does His atonement not count if their is no LDS Church? Very Sad.

It has nothing to do with the "Organization". Christ organized the LDS church and it is the only wholly true church on the face of the earth.

That being the point from which our belief comes from: if it isn't LDS, it's crap. Sure, it might be the top of the crap pile, but it's still crap. You can be the king of crap, at the top of the refined crap pile; but that doesn't change the fact that in the end, it's still crap.

It's not like a choice between Coke or Pepsi. Your talking about TRUTH or "not exactly". So really, when it comes down to it, when your choosing "not exactly" what difference does it make what "not exactly" you choose?

[Ceeboo]

That being the point from which our belief comes from: if it isn't LDS, it's crap. Sure, it might be the top of the crap pile, but it's still crap. You can be the king of crap, at the top of the refined crap pile; but that doesn't change the fact that in the end, it's still crap.

OH DEAR!

This splendid post (IMHO ) , summs up this mind-bending thread quite nicely!

Crap????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Peace,

Ceeboo

[bluebell]

OH DEAR!

This splendid post (IMHO ) , summs up this mind-bending thread quite nicely!

Crap????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Peace,

Ceeboo

I'm disappointed in you Ceeboo.

I don't understand how you can seriously take the worst post in the whole thread and then exclaim that it sums up the entire thread 'quite nicely'.

Does the fact that probably 90% of the posters on this thread would disagree with ELF's interpretation of other religions even give you pause before you lable us all with his words?

[Ahab]

If you had been given the Book of Mormon by missionaries from another Book of Mormon believing church, would God have given you the witness of that book or would he have lied because the 'right church" didn't give it to you?

When God gave me his witness concerning the Book of Mormon, not only did he tell me the Book is a book of scripture which was written by prophets of God, but he also told me that it came to be written in these latter days through the gift and power of God given to Joseph Smith. In other words, he gave me a witness on 2 different issues, namely: The Book of Mormon is scripture, and Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. Then, as I continued to learn more about both the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith, God also bore witness to me that the book of Doctrine & Covenants is also a book of scripture, and so is the Pearl of Great Price, and so is just about anything else written primarily by Joseph Smith, because Joseph was a prophet of God who not only wrote stuff, or had stuff written down by some scribes, but he also spoke as he was moved upon by the Holy Ghost, including his work involving the restoration of the true Church of Jesus Christ in these latter days.

If you have a witness of the Book of Mormon, but not of Joseph Smith and the Church (group of people) he organized, then you haven't looked as deeply into all of that stuff as I have to know what I'm talking about, yet.

t is ALL about Jesus, it has only BEEN about Jesus, and it will only BE about Jesus.

Those who are members of the one true Church of Jesus already know that, bro. Get a grip.

[Ceeboo]

I'm disappointed in you Ceeboo.

I don't understand how you can seriously take the worst post in the whole thread and then exclaim that it sums up the entire thread 'quite nicely'.

Does the fact that probably 90% of the posters on this thread would disagree with ELF's interpretation of other religions even give you pause before you lable us all with his words?

Hey Bluebell,

Sorry to disappoint you (That makes at least 2 of us that are disappointed )

I was not "labeling" you all with his words (Crap).

I was suggesting that said post seems to jive with many other posts in this thread (LDS first above all else).

Perhaps part of the enormous weight placed/required on the LDS "testimony" of all things LDS?

Anyhooo, a very sad, divisive, narrow-minded, clubish, exclusionary, and most interesting thread (IMHO)

BTW: I am surprised (given this thread) that it is ME that you find disappointment in. Telling?

Peace,

Ceeboo

[ELF1024]

I'm disappointed in you Ceeboo.

I don't understand how you can seriously take the worst post in the whole thread and then exclaim that it sums up the entire thread 'quite nicely'.

Does the fact that probably 90% of the posters on this thread would disagree with ELF's interpretation of other religions even give you pause before you lable us all with his words?

divisive, narrow-minded, clubish, exclusionary

These are exactly the words I would use to describe most other "churches" I've run into.

Almost all of the other churches I've run into are after the order of Nehor:

Alma 1

3 And he had gone about among the people, preaching to them that which he termed to be the word of God, bearing down against the church; declaring unto the people that every priest and teacher ought to become popular; and they ought not to labor with their hands, but that they ought to be supported by the people.

4 And he also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life.

5 And it came to pass that he did teach these things so much that many did believe on his words, even so many that they began to support him and give him money.

6 And he began to be lifted up in the pride of his heart, and to wear very costly apparel, yea, and even began to establish a church after the manner of his preaching.

They aren't looking for truth, they aren't even looking for Christ. They only care what you can give them to keep up their standard of living. They tell you that you are saved and that you can live however you want; that nothing you do matters, because you are the elect of God and are saved.

Alma 31

15 Holy, holy God; we believe that thou art God, and we believe that thou art holy, and that thou wast a spirit, and that thou art a spirit, and that thou wilt be a spirit forever.

6 Holy God, we believe that thou hast separated us from our brethren; and we do not believe in the tradition of our brethren, which was handed down to them by the childishness of their fathers; but we believe that thou hast elected us to be thy holy children; and also thou hast made it known unto us that there shall be no Christ.

17 But thou art the same yesterday, today, and forever; and thou hast elected us that we shall be saved, whilst all around us are elected to be cast by thy wrath down to hell; for the which holiness, O God, we thank thee; and we also thank thee that thou hast elected us, that we may not be led away after the foolish traditions of our brethren, which doth bind them down to a belief of Christ, which doth lead their hearts to wander far from thee, our God.

18 And again we thank thee, O God, that we are a chosen and a holy people. Amen.

And so yes I say "crap". Only because I can't use a stronger word on this forum to denounce the preistcrafts and preversions that are other churches. Sure, you can say that other churches have some truth in them. You can say that some good people are in other churches. You can say and justify as you please. However, the fact remains that Joseph Smith Jr. was told not to join any of them; and NONE of them are the true and correct church on the face of the earth headed by Christ himself.

Joseph Smith Jr. - History

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that:

[BookofMormonLuvr]

BookofMormonLuvr are you a Restoration LDS ?, if so which offshoot ?. You wouldnt happen to be familiar with Lynn Ridenhour would you ?. Just asking.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

I am familiar with Lynn Ridenhour, though I haven't heard a peep out of him in years. I sent him a friend's request on FB, with a "Hey, what are you up to?" but as of yet have received no response.

I do, currently, attend and hold membership in a RLDS Restoration Branch in my area where I am teaching the Book of Mormon in the Adult Sunday School class- but I do have some beliefs that are different and I am much more open to what "the church" is then most organized Restoration Churches and their members (see: "Priesthood of All Believers" thread). I sincerely pray on a regular basis that the Lord would lead me where He would have me to be and to what He would have me doing.

[SilverKnight]

Hi Silver,

"Rankling"? No Sir, not rankled at all (Sad would be more accurate).

IMHO, the order/priority seems most bizarre and honestly strikes me as largely "clubish"

Peace,

Ceeboo

Bluebell explains it succinctly...

I think that most LDS who say they would be agnostic are simply acknowleging that they believe secular reasonings against God are stronger than Catholic/protestant/pagan explanations for His existence and/or plan for human life.

If they received (or keep) a testimony of the existence of God through their membership in the LDS church, then it makes sense for them to believe that if the church didn't exist, they would never have come to (or been able to keep) that testimony.

There is nothing "clubish" or petulant about it.

I think some of our Christian friends do not understand the process of faith loss - the reasons why someone would come to the conclusion their church is false.

Every problem that causes us to grapple with faith and wonder if religion is true can be neutralized by a simple naturalistic explanation - God is imaginary and the mistakes of religion are the mistakes of men.

Faith loss is just as often Top Down ("why would God do this?") as it is Bottom Up ("why was the BoM wrong about Amerindian origins?"). For every faith-demoting problem in Mormonism, there is a problem just as menacing in Christianity.

Even the most faithful of us realize that secular arguments are formidable. When our faith finally breaks, it is usually under the weight of secular criticism.

When the dust of shattered faith clears, it is very unlikely the former believer will embrace a new straw house of religious beliefs - one just as easily destroyed by the same arguments that demolished their former faith.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

When God gave me his witness concerning the Book of Mormon, not only did he tell me the Book is a book of scripture which was written by prophets of God, but he also told me that it came to be written in these latter days through the gift and power of God given to Joseph Smith. In other words, he gave me a witness on 2 different issues, namely: The Book of Mormon is scripture, and Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. Then, as I continued to learn more about both the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith, God also bore witness to me that the book of Doctrine & Covenants is also a book of scripture, and so is the Pearl of Great Price, and so is just about anything else written primarily by Joseph Smith, because Joseph was a prophet of God who not only wrote stuff, or had stuff written down by some scribes, but he also spoke as he was moved upon by the Holy Ghost, including his work involving the restoration of the true Church of Jesus Christ in these latter days.

If you have a witness of the Book of Mormon, but not of Joseph Smith and the Church (group of people) he organized, then you haven't looked as deeply into all of that stuff as I have to know what I'm talking about, yet.

Those who are members of the one true Church of Jesus already know that, bro. Get a grip.

Ahab, you don't know me thus you have no idea what I have looked into or how deep I have gone. I know that the work of God is not dependent on a man, and though a man may have many revelations and work many wonders, he can at anytime fall into error. If a man has fallen into error we must determine when that error started, and God has given us the grand key: The Book of Mormon and Bible together in our hand. If we adhere to that standard as best we can it will work out in the end.

[Anakin7]

I am familiar with Lynn Ridenhour, though I haven't heard a peep out of him in years. I sent him a friend's request on FB, with a "Hey, what are you up to?" but as of yet have received no response.

I do, currently, attend and hold membership in a RLDS Restoration Branch in my area where I am teaching the Book of Mormon in the Adult Sunday School class- but I do have some beliefs that are different and I am much more open to what "the church" is then most organized Restoration Churches and their members (see: "Priesthood of All Believers" thread). I sincerely pray on a regular basis that the Lord would lead me where He would have me to be and to what He would have me doing.

BOML Thank you.

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[SilverKnight]

Anyhooo, a very sad, divisive, narrow-minded, clubish, exclusionary, and most interesting thread (IMHO)

Aside from ELFs crude comments calling other religions crap (which I think was tasteless and ignorant), what is so bad about the opinions expressed?

Why is the honest realization that agnosticism is the path of least resistance so offensive?

I guarantee that if you took a poll of educated, internet-saavy lapsed Catholics, the overwhelming majority of them would have agnostic-type beliefs.

And that wouldn't offend me in the least.

There is nothing divisive, narrow or exlusionary about the responses so far. Rather they are honest and not surprising at all - given the demographic of the respondents. If there is anything "telling" about the responses so far, it's that educated, literate, web-savvy, religious people tend to realize that secular, naturalistic explanations are the "2nd Best" way of explaining life, the universe and faith-based beliefs.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I guess I am just strange in that I would prefer the company of sincere believers in Jesus Christ over keeping company with agnostics or atheists with a nihilistic worldview and no hope for eternity.

[SilverKnight]

I guess I am just strange in that I would prefer the company of sincere believers in Jesus Christ

You might not if you had experienced a faith-loss.

Then different religious belief might not be such a factor in determining who you keep company with.

over keeping company with agnostics or atheists

Is belief in a deity required to be a good, kind or moral person?

with a nihilistic worldview and no hope for eternity.

Atheists and Agnostics are almost never nihilists.

And they usually always have hope for eternity - just not in the way you to.

[Ceeboo]

These are exactly the words I would use to describe most other "churches" I've run into.

Almost all of the other churches I've run into are after the order of Nehor:

They aren't looking for truth, they aren't even looking for Christ. They only care what you can give them to keep up their standard of living. They tell you that you are saved and that you can live however you want; that nothing you do matters, because you are the elect of God and are saved.

And so yes I say "crap". Only because I can't use a stronger word on this forum to denounce the preistcrafts and preversions that are other churches. Sure, you can say that other churches have some truth in them. You can say that some good people are in other churches. You can say and justify as you please. However, the fact remains that Joseph Smith Jr. was told not to join any of them; and NONE of them are the true and correct church on the face of the earth headed by Christ himself.

You can take offense at my words, that is your choice. However it does not change the facts of the matter.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[ELF1024]

Aside from ELFs crude comments calling other religions crap (which I think was tasteless and ignorant), what is so bad about the opinions expressed?

Having actually lost the church, or chosen to leave the church thru my actions, depending on you look at it; I just have a differing opinion and outlook.

I could have just joined any ol' church that taught me that I was going to be just fine in my sins. I could have just joined any church that would have been popular with the world. Believe me, it would have made my relationship with my new inlaws much better. There are many reasons I could have turned my back on the LDS church and just walked away; like so many excommunicated members have.

However, I still believe/know that the LDS Church is true.

Tasteless, perhaps... Ignorant... I disagree.

[Ahab]

Ahab, you don't know me thus you have no idea what I have looked into or how deep I have gone.

The more you talk the more I know you, unless you're a liar every time you open your mouth, and then it just takes a little bit longer to figure you out.

I know that the work of God is not dependent on a man, and though a man may have many revelations and work many wonders, he can at anytime fall into error.

God works through men, though, despite their weaknesses, including God setting up his true Church through Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost and Joseph Smith.

If a man has fallen into error we must determine when that error started, and God has given us the grand key: The Book of Mormon and Bible together in our hand.

Men wrote those books of scripture, bro, and we need men who can write them as well as men who know how to correctly understand what they mean when they read and write what they are saying.

If we adhere to that standard as best we can it will work out in the end.

The spirit of prophecy is what holds us all together while helping us to know why we need what God does for us both himself and with the help of his Church.

[Ahab]

I guess I am just strange in that I would prefer the company of sincere believers in Jesus Christ over keeping company with agnostics or atheists with a nihilistic worldview and no hope for eternity.

The sincere believers are in his Church, though, or at least they are working toward it.

The question is where would you be if the true Church of Christ was not or no longer in existence.

Correct Answer: You would be among the people who are not members of his true Church, even though they might be moving toward it.

[Ceeboo]

There is nothing "clubish" or petulant about it.

I think some of our Christian friends do not understand the process of faith loss - the reasons why someone would come to the conclusion their church is false.

Hi Silver,

Because we clearly hold very different opinions/thoughts, I will offer a mere few words.

It is pinnacle of "clubish" to hold the very "club" ABOVE all else (Including the very ONE who we claim to follow)

"Faith loss" in what exactly? In the Lord (God) or in a Church?

Clearly, this question speaks volumes to what I find so mis-guided in this thread.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[BookofMormonLuvr]

This has been an eye-opening experience. Continuing to participate in this thread will only serve to further depress me.

[SilverKnight]

It is pinnacle of "clubish" to hold the very "club" ABOVE all else (Including the very ONE who we claim to follow)

You're not reading, or at least not comprehending, anything I've said.

As someone who has experienced faith loss, I have told you the reasons why people from our demographic lose faith.

I think you need to look at the reasons why people of ANY religion, including your own, lose their faith and end up agnostic.

It has nothing with arrogance, pride or putting the "club" first.

Rather it's all about honest soul-searching and coming to terms with where the search for truth takes us.