If you were not LDS....

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I strongly disagree with your idea that we only believe in Jesus because Joseph Smith did.

I think we tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

It isn't as simple as just yanking Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon out from under people when the decide the church is false. The entire Church is built around the idea of Jesus Christ directly leading the church through the prophet. If you lose faith in the Church, it can easily follow that nothing you believed was true, that Jesus wasn't the head of the church, and there is no Deity.

I know of very few people who have left the church because of an issue over something like the Pearl of Great Price, or the Book of Mormon. Most people in the church have a strong faith of the Book of Mormon, and thereby a faith in Joseph Smith as a Prophet. If you believe in Joseph Smith as a Prophet, you tend to take the rest of the Doctrine on faith.

Most of the people I know who have left the Church have left because they were offended by a member of the ward or Bishopric. It's not generally over a doctrinal issue or anything tangible.

If the Church was true then "THAT PERSON" wouldn't have been called to be in the Bishopric... or something to that effect.

I left over fundamental differences concerning doctrine, with my testimony of the Book of Mormon firmly intact- I was not offended by any member or leader and am grateful for being raised in the best Ward in the LDS Church (at least it was when I was growing up)

[Ahab]

I have the same faith in 1 and 2. Certainly I don't believe it is possible for Christ's Church to fail. The hypothesis is if it did (so make believe for me) what would I do. I have to admit I took the sly way out, because most here think of the Catholic Church as Roman Catholic. The churches I listed as going to are also Catholic Churches, 100% Christs' Church.

But if for some reason there was some odd thing that Christ's Church (for me this means Catholicism) did not exist, I would find a group of believers who held the same belief as I, in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit...the Trinity. I would in no way think, "wow, I can't follow Jesus any more". I would find a way to do it, come hell or high water!

You still don't seem to get it.

Speaking for myself, instead of trying to speak for everyone else, the reason I'm in the Church is because God has told me Jesus has a Church and the one I am in now is it.

It's all based on what God has told me, not based on which Church "I" think is the right Church, as if I made my best guess when joining this Church and I can simply go to another Church if I later find out that "I" was wrong in determining which Church is the true Church of Jesus Christ.

God has told me which Church is the true Church of Jesus Christ, and I believe him, and if I later found out that what God has told me is wrong, well... why should I believe anything God says about anything else?

[saemo]

God has told me which Church is the true Church of Jesus Christ, and I believe him, and if I later found out that what God has told me is wrong, well... why should I believe anything God says about anything else?

Obviously the alternative explanation is the mistake was not God's.

[Ceeboo]

You still don't seem to get it.

Speaking for myself, instead of trying to speak for everyone else, the reason I'm in the Church is because God has told me Jesus has a Church and the one I am in now is it.

It's all based on what God has told me, not based on which Church "I" think is the right Church, as if I made my best guess when joining this Church and I can simply go to another Church if I later find out that "I" was wrong in determining which Church is the true Church of Jesus Christ.

God has told me which Church is the true Church of Jesus Christ, and I believe him, and if I later found out that what God has told me is wrong, well... why should I believe anything God says about anything else?

Well, God told me that what God told you wasn't suppose to be told at MADB.

But don't worry, I won't tell.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[TAO]

I have the same faith in 1 and 2. Certainly I don't believe it is possible for Christ's Church to fail. The hypothesis is if it did (so make believe for me) what would I do. I have to admit I took the sly way out, because most here think of the Catholic Church as Roman Catholic. The churches I listed as going to are also Catholic Churches, 100% Christs' Church.

But if for some reason there was some odd thing that Christ's Church (for me this means Catholicism) did not exist, I would find a group of believers who held the same belief as I, in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit...the Trinity. I would in no way think, "wow, I can't follow Jesus any more". I would find a way to do it, come hell or high water!

Yes, this would be how we would do it to if it just 'randomly disappeared'. But now think about it if the Roman Catholic Church never existed (or it disappeared in the 1500s). Your family wasn't introduced to it. Where would you be then, I ask?

Here's how it is for me.

1) If the Mormon Church didn't exist, I wouldn't have faith in Christ (the Book of Mormon wouldn't exist)

2) If it disappeared, I'd worship on my own or find others whom it also disappeared for.

3) If it was wrong, I'd lose faith altogether, because the Spirit has led me to the Church, and that would mean the Spirit was wrong.

[TAO]

Obviously the alternative explanation is the mistake was not God's.

Thus why it is important to be honest with oneself. Nevertheless, we cannot determine how honest other people are with themselves, thus we must follow the dictations of our own conscience.

[saemo]

Well, God told me that what God told you wasn't suppose to be told at MADB.

But don't worry, I won't tell.

Peace,

Ceeboo

lol

[saemo]

Here's how it is for me.

1) If the Mormon Church didn't exist, I wouldn't have faith in Christ (the Book of Mormon wouldn't exist)

2) If it disappeared, I'd worship on my own or find others whom it also disappeared for.

3) If it was wrong, I'd lose faith altogether, because the Spirit has led me to the Church, and that would mean the Spirit was wrong.

Well this is how it is for me.

1) The only reason to be a Christian is JESUS CHRIST. I am a Christian first, and always will be.

2) If it weren't for Jesus, there would be no Catholic Church so it is impossible that it would ever exist without Jesus Christ.

3) Given #2, it isn't possible for what belongs to Him to disappear, in the 1500s or any other time.

4) If I ever came to think it were possible, I would still be first and always a CHRISTIAN, ie, one who follows Jesus Christ!

PS: <facepalm> The Spirit is NEVER WRONG. </facepalm>

Lord have Mercy.

[TAO]

Well this is how it is for me.

1) The only reason to be a Christian is JESUS CHRIST. I am a Christian first, and always will be.

2) If it weren't for Jesus, there would be no Catholic Church so it is impossible that it would ever exist without Jesus Christ.

3) Given #2, it isn't possible for what belongs to Him to disappear, in the 1500s or any other time.

4) If I ever came to think it were possible, I would still be first and always a CHRISTIAN, ie, one who follows Jesus Christ!

1) Tis Fine. Same reason I'm Mormon. Only difference is I found Christ through the BoM.

2) True, but what I am saying is let's say Christ existed, but the Catholic Church did not.

3) I disagree. What if he took it away with a good reason? Surely he is allowed to take things away, no?

4) *shrugs* I found my testimony through the BoM. If no BoM ever existed, I would have never been introduced to the questions I needed to ask in order to get me to trust Christ.

PS: <facepalm> The Spirit is NEVER WRONG. </facepalm>

Precisely, which is why I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. No other reason had nor needed. I know it IS the true and restored church, so yah, I don't really have to worry too much about the possibilities talked of in this thread XD. But literally, I wouldn't trust the Spirit anymore if the church was not correct. Luckily, as said, it will never be a worry.

[saemo]

I prayed for God to lead me to Him, and He did. I prayed after that for Him to keep me with Him. He has. That is why I am a Christian. He used His Church, no doubt that, to do it. But if there ever came a day He led me from it, I would go.

I think it sad to have a book as the foundation of belief. It is a disaster waiting to happen. If there ever comes a day that disaster occurs, I pray you rely on HIM, and you will then be able to see that the Holy Spirity being in error, is not even an option to be whispered.

Peace be with you.

[bluebell]

Maybe it would help for non-LDS Christians to think about what it would be like if they suddenly realized that the bible was NOT the word of God, or if the bible had never existed, how they would approach their belief in God.

No doubt, some would still believe in God and/or Christ and simple go to a non-bible believing church, but some would lose their faith, or never develop it in the first place.

I believe this is what TAO is trying to explain when he talks about the role the BOM has played in his faith. Most people come to faith in Christ through some kind of vehicle-the scriptures, a church, a missionary, a friend.... They don't generally gain a testmony of Christ without some kind of outward stimulus (obviously, that's why the scriptures talk about the importance of missionary work).

It's not much of a stretch for someone to wonder, if that stimulus had never appeared in his life or was suddenly removed, how his faith could survive such a thing.

[MistahStokes]

Some form of Judaism for me. I find 20th century Jewish Thinkers to be top notch, and it's the only faith I ever seriously considered joining.

[saemo]

Maybe it would help for non-LDS Christians to think about what it would be like if they suddenly realized that the bible was NOT the word of God, or if the bible had never existed, how they would approach their belief in God.

The Early Christians did not have a NT. Their reliance was on the testimony of other Christians, those who succeeded the Apostles, and of the community of believers itself (what Catholics call the Church). Together this is what we call Tradition. Tradition continues, and if the NT disappeared, the teachings of Christ's Church are preserved in the Body of Christ. Same for the OT, it comes from a ancient Tradition called Judaism. The NT is a fulfillment of the OT. So for me, it would have to be all of Salvation History, beginning with Genesis, wiped out. Which then logically of course, is a rewrite of history and who knows what we would all be with a different history (beginning with Adam and Eve never eating the forbidden fruit).

I guess that is another thing to consider about Mormons, Salvation History for Mormons is missing 1800 years. I don't see that Jesus ever left us orphans, as He promised, and it is not possible for me to see that He ever would. I guess it is possible for Mormons to imagine a world where God does not exist.

[ERayR]

I prayed for God to lead me to Him, and He did. I prayed after that for Him to keep me with Him. He has. That is why I am a Christian. He used His Church, no doubt that, to do it. But if there ever came a day He led me from it, I would go.

I think it sad to have a book as the foundation of belief. It is a disaster waiting to happen. If there ever comes a day that disaster occurs, I pray you rely on HIM, and you will then be able to see that the Holy Spirity being in error, is not even an option to be whispered.

Peace be with you.

saemo I think you misunderstand what TAO has said. He did not say the BoM is the foundation but that the BoM was what led him to the point of belief and trust in Jesus Christ. His belief foundation is the same as yours. Jesus Christ.

Your post is a serious misrepresentation of what I think he is saying.

[ERayR]

I guess that is another thing to consider about Mormons, Salvation History for Mormons is missing 1800 years. I don't see that Jesus ever left us orphans, as He promised, and it is not possible for me to see that He ever would. I guess it is possible for Mormons to imagine a world where God does not exist.

This is a serious misunderstanding of what the apostasy really was.

[bluebell]

The Early Christians did not have a NT. Their reliance was on the testimony of other Christians, those who succeeded the Apostles, and of the community of believers itself (what Catholics call the Church).

Exactly. They gained their testimony through 'the church'. If that church had never existed or had suddenly disappeared in their lifetimes. It's obvious that many of them never would have gained a testimony in the first place or would have lost it.

Together this is what we call Tradition. Tradition continues, and if the NT disappeared, the teachings of Christ's Church are preserved in the Body of Christ.

What if the tradition suddenly didn't exist anymore? How would the beliefs of most Christians change? Would some cease to be Christian or never have been Christian in the first place?

This is the question the OP is asking-what if the 'tradition' that lead many LDS people to their testimony of Christ didn't exist anymore or never existed in the first place.

I guess that is another thing to consider about Mormons, Salvation History for Mormons is missing 1800 years. I don't see that Jesus ever left us orphans, as He promised, and it is not possible for me to see that He ever would.

Then you are not successfully puting yourself into the OP. This is probably why you and other posters are incabable of seeing any perspective but your own in regards to the question.

I guess it is possible for Mormons to imagine a world where God does not exist.

Anyone who has gained a testimony after not having one should be able to imagine a world where God does not exist, since before gaining a testimony, that's exactly the kind of world they lived in.

I'm sure it's easy for people who have always had that belief to dismiss those who haven't.

[saemo]

saemo I think you misunderstand what TAO has said. He did not say the BoM is the foundation but that the BoM was what led him to the point of belief and trust in Jesus Christ. His belief foundation is the same as yours. Jesus Christ.

Your post is a serious misrepresentation of what I think he is saying.

Most Christians I know, their foundational belief of Jesus Christ is Jesus Christ Himself. There is also the fact that TAO, and numerous LDS here say they would be agnostic/atheist/non-Christian. If Jesus Christ is the foundation, this is not possible.

I am not trying to misrepresent. I am reading what people write.

[saemo]

Exactly. They gained their testimony through 'the church'. If that church had never existed or had suddenly disappeared in their lifetimes. It's obvious that many of them never would have gained a testimony in the first place or would have lost it.

What if the tradition suddenly didn't exist anymore? How would the beliefs of most Christians change? Would some cease to be Christian or never have been Christian in the first place?

This is the question the OP is asking-what if the 'tradition' that lead many LDS people to their testimony of Christ didn't exist anymore or never existed in the first place.

Then you are not successfully puting yourself into the OP. This is probably why you and other posters are incabable of seeing any perspective but your own in regards to the question.

Anyone who has gained a testimony after not having one should be able to imagine a world where God does not exist, since before gaining a testimony, that's exactly the kind of world they lived in.

I'm sure it's easy for people who have always had that belief to dismiss those who haven't.

You shouldn't assume who I am. I was raised LDS, left for atheism, and God touched me, so I followed Him. I CANNOT IMAGINE A WORLD WHERE GOD DOES NOT EXIST. I was blind, but now I see, and I cannot make myself blind again. It just is not possible.

I could never follow anything that denies HIM. Unless as I have already said, and you completely ignored, Salvation History ceased to exist. And that is just pure fantasy.

People here are saying without a BoM, they would be blind to God's Saving Grace. I find that shocking and disturbing. I can't help how I feel. It is to me people are saying they don't really know the Love of God. I find it beyond sad.

[ERayR]

Most Christians I know, their foundational belief of Jesus Christ is Jesus Christ Himself. There is also the fact that TAO, and numerous LDS here say they would be agnostic/atheist/non-Christian. If Jesus Christ is the foundation, this is not possible.

I am not trying to misrepresent. I am reading what people write.

No offence but you are filtering what they write through your own prejudices. You are reading what you think they are saying instead of what they say.

"...say they would be agnostic/atheist/non-Christian. If Jesus Christ is the foundation, this is not possible."

It is not only possible but rational. Most Christians base their belief in Jesus Christ in what someone else has taught them. It resonates so they accept it as truth and Jesus becomes important to them.

[saemo]

No offence but you are filtering what they write through your own prejudices. You are reading what you think they are saying instead of what they say.

"...say they would be agnostic/atheist/non-Christian. If Jesus Christ is the foundation, this is not possible."

It is not only possible but rational. Most Christians base their belief in Jesus Christ in what someone else has taught them. It resonates so they accept it as truth and Jesus becomes important to them.

No, I am relating my experience. Similar threads are started at Christian forums. Most people say it is not possible for them to be anything else, like Ahab did here. If the answer is not that, it is something that is at least Christian. I can't say I have ever seen anyone say they would be non-Christian, agnostic or atheist. This appears to me to be something unique to this board.

I don't know that it is unique to Mormonism as I don't know the demographics of the board. If it is a self-selected group of Mormons with like tendencies, or if Mormons in general think this way.

[ERayR]

No, I am relating my experience. Similar threads are started at Christian forums. Most people say it is not possible for them to be anything else, like Ahab did here. If the answer is not that, it is something that is at least Christian. I can't say I have ever seen anyone say they would be non-Christian, agnostic or atheist. This appears to me to be something unique to this board.

I don't know that it is unique to Mormonism as I don't know the demographics of the board. If it is a self-selected group of Mormons with like tendencies, or if Mormons in general think this way.

Again you are filtering what they say through your own prejudices or misunderstanding. Those of us who have recieved the witness of the spirit could not reasonably transfer our allegiance to any other church.

Any thing else just falls too far short of what we now know and enjoy.

I rejoice that you are happy with what you have found.

[saemo]

Again you are filtering what they say through your own prejudices or misunderstanding. Those of us who have recieved the witness of the spirit could not reasonably transfer our allegiance to any other church.

Any thing else just falls too far short of what we now know and enjoy.

I rejoice that you are happy with what you have found.

A witness of what, exactly? Because I'm not seeing that it is Jesus Christ, and that is WHO we are called be witnesses of. It isn't much of witness to say "I'd cease to be a witness." now is it?

[bluebell]

You shouldn't assume who I am.

I didn't.

I was raised LDS, left for atheism, and God touched me, so I followed Him.

O.k.

I CANNOT IMAGINE A WORLD WHERE GOD DOES NOT EXIST.

So, because of your experience, anyone who does not behave as you have is not sincere in the testimony of Christ? Isn't this a bit arrogant?

I was blind, but now I see, and I cannot make myself blind again. It just is not possible.

But your experiences are not everyone's, right? Is this an example of, 'if you don't react like me something is wrong with you?'

I could never follow anything that denies HIM. Unless as I have already said, and you completely ignored, Salvation History ceased to exist. And that is just pure fantasy.

I didn't ignore it, it just wasn't applicable to what i was trying to say so there was no reason to engage it.

I agree with you, I can't imagine ever losing my faith in Christ. But not everyone is like me so i'm not going to expect everyone to react to a faith-testing event in the same way that i think i would.

People here are saying without a BoM, they would be blind to God's Saving Grace. I find that shocking and disturbing. I can't help how I feel. It is to me people are saying they don't really know the Love of God. I find it beyond sad.

I understand that you can't help how you feel. I can't help but feel that your feelings come from a very arrogant place which demands that everyone must react as you do when faith is testing or they prove they never had true faith to begin with.

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Libs]

I have a basic belief in God that cannot be disturbed by leaving a particular church or even any given religion.

I was LDS and left to go into a mainstream Protestant Church. If I left that church or even left Christianity, altogether, my next choice would be Buddhism or some other eastern religion.

[saemo]

I understand that you can't help how you feel. I can't help but feel that your feelings come from a very arrogant place which demands that everyone must react as you do when faith is testing or they prove they never had true faith to begin with.

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Ah well, I see the ad hominems have come out, so that means I've outstayed my welcome.

I thought we were discussing what it means to be disciple of Christ, and what it means to be a witness to that. But I see we're discussing relativism.

Have a good day.