If you were not LDS....

[BookofMormonLuvr]

In talking with LDS, you have to remember that the BoM is another testament in Jesus Christ; therefore, it's centered in Christ from their perspective.

As my oldest LDS daughter put it, if you believe in the BoM OR that Joseph Smith IS who he says he is, the result is that you believe in the whole thing that IS Christ-centered from their POV.

Fortunately, there are many who have realized, are realizing, and who will realize the fallacy in your daughter's argument and not "throw the baby (Book of Mormon) out with the bath water (questionable LDS teachings)" when they come to realize that not everything is as it seems in the LDS Church.

[TAO]

Fortunately, there are many who have realized, are realizing, and who will realize the fallacy in your daughter's argument and not "throw the baby (Book of Mormon) out with the bath water (questionable LDS teachings)" when they come to realize that not everything is as it seems in the LDS Church.

Hehe, and then there are some like me who then explore deeper and find counter-points to what isn't what it seems. ;-)

[blueadept]

:banghead:

I know that 'LDS have faith in Joseph Smith, not Jesus' is a practically incurable metastatic cancer you all suffer from, but it's been demonstrated a thousand times that this is an unsupported, untenable and untrue belief.

I believe I've stated that LDS belief is 'Christ-centered' from your perspective and not JS-centered from the majority of my posts.

If this is still your perspective from your snippet........so be it.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Hehe, and then there are some like me who then explore deeper and find counter-points to what isn't what it seems. ;-)

And then there are those, like me, who laugh when an LDS person makes the never-so-humble assertion that I haven't explored deeply because I disagree with certain aspects of their history and/or doctrine.

[SilverKnight]

I believe I've stated that LDS belief is 'Christ-centered' from your perspective and not JS-centered from the majority of my posts.

You have.

I shouldn't have lumped you in with the other members of The Great & Abominable.

Just kidding.

[blueadept]

You have.

I shouldn't have lumped you in with the other members of The Great & Abominable.

Just kidding.

Haha..........

[Ceeboo]

The reasons you all seem to be ignoring in order to preserve your misinformed and hypocritical stereotype of LDS as you arrogantly gaze down from the vaulted windows of the basilica.

I know that 'LDS have faith in Joseph Smith, not Jesus' is a practically incurable metastatic cancer you all suffer from, but it's been demonstrated a thousand times that this is an unsupported, untenable and untrue belief.

Huh!

You do seem do be a most cranky and angry saint of late.

Surely, you don't intend to label my experience by super-gluing your judgement/insults upon them. Do you?

A suggestion: If you are not able to discuss things (on a discussion board) with folks who do not agree with you, perhaps you can ignore the reply button that you semm to use way to often.

Just a thought!

Oh and BTW, for what it worth to others who may be reading/sharing in this thread , I stand firmly on my previous post (You angry suggestion of "misinformed, hypocritical, arrogant" and the rest of your cranky insults" strongly considered)

Peace,

Ceeboo

[ERayR]

LDS and Catholics have the same understanding on this issue. Keep in mind the analogy that Christ is on one side of the door while we are on the other side with the door knob on our side. It's up to us through free will to let Christ into our lives.

I hope this helped.

The question is do you think it possible that once you open the door that it is possible to close it again?

[blueadept]

The question is do you think it possible that once you open the door that it is possible to close it again?

For many individuals..........of course.

From my personal experience and what I know of Ceeboo, saemo, and 3DOP.......no.

[TAO]

And then there are those, like me, who laugh when an LDS person makes the never-so-humble assertion that I haven't explored deeply because I disagree with certain aspects of their history and/or doctrine.

You have lol. But you have come up with different conclusions than I have. Thus, our brains must have a different reasoning system.

[ERayR]

Indeed! This has been my experience as well.

To add, the testimony of some of my LDS friends (At least to some degree) seems to be a testimony that is largely cemented in The LDS Church and or Joseph Smith.

Anyhooo, just my take.

Peace,

Ceeboo

Feiend Ceeboo it is my experience that this is not so. The problem is that in the LDS church the knowledge brought by the restoration is so inextricably intertwined that it is hard to seperate. It is not that LDS have less reverence for Jesus Christ it is just that that testimony and witness includes the other.

[ERayR]

For many individuals..........of course.

From my personal experience and what I know of Ceeboo, saemo, and 3DOP.......no.

I too think the answer is no or in the very least you can't do it without being a drastically changed person.

[Ceeboo]

Feiend Ceeboo it is my experience that this is not so. The problem is that in the LDS church the knowledge brought by the restoration is so inextricably intertwined that it is hard to seperate. It is not that LDS have less reverence for Jesus Christ it is just that that testimony and witness includes the other.

Friend ERayR,

I think we are agreeing?

This is why (in my experience) many/most LDS who no longer believe in "things LDS" become atheist/agnostic.

Where as many (Catholics or any other denomination) who may no longer believe in "things Catholic/other denomination" remain Christian.

Anyhooo, thanks for leaving out the personal insults/judgements!

Peace,

Ceeboo

[SilverKnight]

EDIT:

Ceeboo you are right, I've been a bit of a cad lately.

I value your participation on this board, you are always honest and your positions are well thought out.

You must understand that the belief that mormons place their faith in Joseph Smith and not Christ gives us fits and evokes rancorous responses..

In any case, I could learn a thing or two from you about being polite and agreeable.

Apologies!

[Ceeboo]

You seem to be a most sensitive and thin-skinned saint who takes everything personally, whines about it and scolds people who take exception to misinformed, hypocritical and arrogant statements like this:

It's also irritating to have every relevant point I made ignored. Not once have you addressed my ideas.

It seems like you are incapable of having a discussion, you would prefer to scold people for being rude to you.

A suggestion: quit being a hypersensitive little board nanny nd respond to the points I made if you disagree with them.

Right, you're going to keep on trucking in your wrong beliefs, and whine like you've been spanked when anyone attempts to educate you.

Something (my past experiences with you perhaps) tells me that you will, again, be deleting/editing your posts.

Make you a deal:

I will let my posts speak and you can let yours do the same. Deal?

Peace,

Ceeboo

[ERayR]

Friend ERayR,

I think we are agreeing?

This is why (in my experience) many/most LDS who no longer believe in "things LDS" become atheist/agnostic.

Where as many (Catholics or any other denomination) who may no longer believe in "things Catholic/other denomination" remain Christian.

Anyhooo, thanks for leaving out the personal insults/judgements!

Peace,

Ceeboo

I hope you don't think anything I have ever written to you was a personal insult/judgement. If so it was never meant as such and I would/will appologize most profusly.

[Ceeboo]

Something (my past experiences with you perhaps) tells me that you will, again, be deleting/editing your posts.

Peace,

Ceeboo

WOW!!!!

Coincedence or prophetic?

Peace,

Ceeboo

[SilverKnight]

Something (my past experiences with you perhaps) tells me that you will, again, be deleting/editing your posts.

Make you a deal:

I will let my posts speak and you can let yours do the same. Deal?

Peace,

Ceeboo

I always fire off hotheaded responses then have second thoughts.

Certainly this wont be the last time.

So if my peace offerings are going to be rejected, lets get back to the matters at hand:

Lets talk about how LDS testimonies are based in the LDS church and in Joseph Smith.

This is your unapologetic belief is it not?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

WOW!!!!

Coincedence or prophetic?

Peace,

Ceeboo

Come on, Ceeboo... Silverknight offered up a truce- Don't tinkle on it like Ahab did to mine.

[Ceeboo]

EDIT:

Ceeboo you are right, I've been a bit of a cad lately.

I value your participation on this board, you are always honest and your positions are well thought out.

You must understand that the belief that mormons place their faith in Joseph Smith and not Christ gives us fits and evokes rancorous responses..

In any case, I could learn a thing or two from you about being polite and agreeable.

Apologies!

First- apology not needed but certainly accepted.

Second, it is VERY hard to attempt a discussion/answer/accept truces/ when above posts are edited/completely changed. Becomes very challenging to reply to/follow!

Anyhooo, perhaps it is better for the entire board that we (Ceeboo and silver) limit our offerings to each other as we clearly hold very different opinions/perspectives on just about every topic that can be brought up.

Maybe agree to disagree with a smile is best for all.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[SilverKnight]

First- apology not needed but certainly accepted.

Second, it is VERY hard to attempt a discussion/answer/accept truces/ when above posts are edited/completely changed. Becomes very challenging to reply to/follow!

Anyhooo, perhaps it is better for the entire board that we (Ceeboo and silver) limit our offerings to each other as we clearly hold very different opinions/perspectives on just about every topic that can be brought up.

Maybe agree to disagree with a smile is best for all.

Peace,

Ceeboo

Fair enough!

And please know that the faithful catholic Ceeboo is genuinely liked by faithless mormon Silverknight.

Which is why he always goes back and re-edits his posts after being an ill-tempered, irascible jerk.

[blueadept]

Fair enough!

And please know that the faithful catholic Ceeboo is genuinely liked by faithless mormon Silverknight.

Which is why he always goes back and re-edits his posts after being an ill-tempered, irascible jerk.

Irascible jerk???..........nah. I actually enjoy sharing religious POV's with you and most other MADB members.

.....but I do have an exception or two.

[saemo]

Saemo, could you answer my question from your last response to me?

Thanks.

Hi, Blueadept covered it well, and probably more charitable than I have been feeling about the topic, which is why I took a break. It isn't that I think Mormons are "flawed" or "bad", I had this idea that being committed to discipleship of Jesus Christ was about the only thing we (the royal we) had in common. So I was feeling a bit down about this idea that Mormons are so ready to leave Him at the suggestion of not being LDS. I try my hardest to see things I have in common with my family, who are all LDS. I am the only Catholic. So this thread has left me feeling like the commitment I thought was there, isn't, and so there is no commonality.

Certainly I know Catholics who have left Catholicism and that oft-used phrase "I was raised Catholic", which is some sort of code for something I haven't quite figured out yet. Real life experience for me is that the majority of Catholics I know who left Catholicism remained Christian, and the majority of Mormons I know who left Mormonism are agnostic or atheist. Including myself, for many years, my husband, two of my siblings, many friends, etc. etc. etc.

Are there atheists who were former Catholics, of course there are, did they really know Jesus before? The ones I know of, by what they say and how they say it, I'd say no. But I can't really say because how would I know? There are a lot of Catholics who were baptized as infants, and that was it, their parents had some idea of "instilling morality" or "good values" or baptism was a familial cultural type thing to do. But then the infants become adults and they might say they are Catholics, but it is in name only. They were never taught anything, Catholic or Christian.

I can't say I've every read anything, anywhere, where someone said they were well-catechized, committed Catholics, and went agnostic or atheist. Most often, they go to some other Christian religion, including Mormonism. I'm under the impression that those LDS here who are saying they would leave Christ, are well taught and committed LDS. I'm not getting how such a person would turn their back on Christ. Which, is OK, I'm not going to try to get it. It is what it is. I still think it is sad though.

To the comments of "Catholic apostates". Catholics have a different view of people who leave. Many are of the idea that those who have left, are on a journey, and like the prodigal son, they'll return. If they don't, only God can judge their hearts. Catholics don't have lessons on "how to avoid personal apostasy". It is such a very foreign idea to Catholicism. "Return to Christ", is what all committed Catholics seek to do, every day, as all people are prone to sin. The only remedy is to return to Him. There is no other Way. Anyway, Catholics don't call people who have left "apostates". That term is reserved for true and complete apostasy, which is rare, and of the sort like Luther or Calvin. We don't call everyone who leaves Catholicism "apostate". We call them Catholics.

So this idea that I'm going to find internet boards with "apostate Catholics" is wholly a Mormon idea, and foreign to Catholics. Will you find people who are angry at Catholicism? Yes, just go to CARM and check out the RC forum. Those who left, angry as they are, are still Christian.

"Return to Christ", is how I see my life every day. Or at least try to, because I am a sinner, and need Him. If I left Catholicism, I would not leave Him. Where would I go? He has the words of everlasting life. Alleluia!

[Calm]

Certainly I know Catholics who have left Catholicism and that oft-used phrase "I was raised Catholic", which is some sort of code for something I haven't quite figured out yet. Real life experience for me is that the majority of Catholics I know who left Catholicism remained Christian, and the majority of Mormons I know who left Mormonism are agnostic or atheist. Including myself, for many years, my husband, two of my siblings, many friends, etc. etc. etc.

I think the main issue here is that the LDS paradigm is not echoed very well outside of the faith.

I am LDS because that is the faith that logically answers the question of how things should work in this world, it tells me why there is evil and how the Lord can love his children and yet withhold his help at times, it tells me why the Atonement works the way it does, it tells me what purpose there is in things that are meaningless by any other perspective. Whether you come to the faith because it fits your perceptions or your perceptions grow to fit your faith as you learn the doctrine and see how it is supposed to work in and with the world, in the end the LDS paradigm is a pretty all inclusive one in that it addresses something in every aspect of one's life (not saying others don't, but just saying why we end up looking for something to replace an entire worldview rather than just bits and pieces).

And while there are similarities of doctrine in other faiths, there is nothing close in similarity to the 'whole package' of answers so there is nowhere else really to go if one wants to shed only a few minor or major beliefs, but keep the overall structure of one's belief system (except perhaps the siblings of LDS Restoration, but those have been taught to have no authority and that is a hard hurdle to overcome, imo). So one is left looking for a whole new paradigm, not just a remodeled one. And if one is going to do that, anything is up for questioning, especially oneself so one has not only doubt, but suspicion about what one has held dear before, afraid to be betrayed again by what weakness led us to the original falsehood.

There are also no real working role well known models out there showing LDS who lose faith their options outside of becoming agnostic. The most familiar exLDS Christians tend to be overly aggressive in their attacks on LDS so that option not something most LDS see as appealing. OTOH, Catholics have the whole Protestant collection of sects as role models, demonstrating that it is not an unlikely step to keep the faith even if one gives up the Catholic version of it. They have grown up accepting that there are other valid faiths to operate from, baptisms they accept as valid, etc. etc., something quite absent in the LDS faith though we believe other faiths can hold great truths. The paradigm of "One True Faith" is different for LDS than it is for Catholics, the latter seeing the Catholic faith as the center (please correct me if I am wrong) but not alone as there are seen valid brethren in the faith in many Christian denominations. Not so LDS, where the focus of "One True Faith" is more exclusive, we do not 'share' sacraments with others, all sacraments must be done by one authorized, authorization comes through the Church's hierarchy and only through that (ending and beginning with Christ as the head of the faith.)

The work of anti-mormons in the past has created a sense of division between the LDS faith and the general traditional Christian community, overemphasizing the differences, imo. The self-imposed, federal government fueled isolation of Utah also led to a greater sense of distance between the traditional Christian sects and the LDS Christian sect. This is an emotional barrier that needs to be conquered.

I would find it interesting if one could do a study of Catholics in the first few hundred years of the Church and see if most who left the Catholic Church remained Christian in some fashion or sought out something completely different. I would not be surprised if in the future as exLDS who are active in other faiths interact in positive ways grow in numbers (as opposed to those who become anti-mormon along with their new beliefs), that there are more LDS who chose this route if they choose to leave....though with the huge and aggressive presence of the secular world these days, that is a voice that can drown out

People tend to do what they see others doing, they get their ideas on what is and what isn't appropriate from others as well.

Summing up, I would say it is not that LDS are more prone to atheism, it is just that there are more limited perceived to be valid options due to the way the LDS Church views its relationships with other denominations as opposed to how the Catholic view theirs.

I would also say your point of how Catholics view those who do leave their faith is significant as well, it appears to be not as much as an emotional break, it is not seen as life altering as it is in the LDS faith. If so, it seems like it becomes less important for the individual to construct significant rationales for leaving.

[Calm]

I'm not getting how such a person would turn their back on Christ.

I would say it was less about turning their back on Christ and more about doubting themselves and looking for a way to avoid making the same type of mistake again (assuming that the LDS faith was a mistake). If one doubts oneself, even the most rational belief can be viewed as suspicious, especially if the most vocal around you are saying it is....and there is always someone (in my experience) out there telling LDS that they've been making a big mistake and encouraging them to lose faith (even if that means losing faith in Christ...perhaps urroner mentioned this happening on ZLMB where several EVs celebrated a person turning her back on Christ because she was turning her back on the LDS faith at the same time).

PS: if one reads the first page or two, the majority of LDS who responded said they would either be either a different Christian denomination or remain a Christian but not belonging to anything organized, so I am not sure why there is this idea that the majority of LDS would become agnostic or athestic.