If you were not LDS....

[Ahab]

Why is the assumption that God lied if you found out the LDS Church was not everything it claimed to be? There are two persons involved: God, the ever-perfect, all-knowing being and man, an imperfect, not all-knowing mortal- If there is an issue with "assurances" (as Ahab calls them), I don't think God would be the one to fault.

The way God assures me what he assures me about leaves me no doubt about what it is that God is assuring me about.

His assurances make me feel "sure" about what he is telling me, so that I not only "know" or "feel sure" about what he is telling me, but I also "know" or "feel sure" about the fact that it is actually God who is telling me what he is telling me.

Try thinking about it that way, and then maybe you'll understand why it would be God who would be giving me the wrong message when assuring me of what he is assuring me about IF what he was assuring me about wasn't true.

Also, try to understand the fact that I know the difference between God and Satan from a lot of personal experience interacting with both of them, with Satan giving me a lot of wrong messages and God giving me a lot of right messages until I gradually got to know both God and Satan, even while Satan also claims to be God.

[Calm]

Why is the assumption that God lied if you found out the LDS Church was not everything it claimed to be? There are two persons involved: God, the ever-perfect, all-knowing being and man, an imperfect, not all-knowing mortal- If there is an issue with "assurances" (as Ahab calls them), I don't think God would be the one to fault.

An analogy...

A man gives you a phone that he says links you directly to someone who can give you the best health advice. You use it for awhile and feel like it provides you with a great service. Then one day you stumble on the fact that this phone is not a phone after all, but what appears to be a complicated recording device that listens to key words and responses with a set list of answers given by the man who sold you the phone.

You toss the phone and look to find another source for personal health information, but then someone asks why you have given up on the person who gave you all that advice since it worked out so well for you.

There are several possible reasonable responses here including accepting that the original source of the advice, whomever that might be, is still the best available and looking for a better way of getting in direct contact with that individual, but if all that was available were other phones that looked pretty much the same as the one you had been using before and they were all from the same individual who had given you the first one, why would you be interesting in investing in any of them?

[Libs]

Sure.

All of mine from him, if I correctly understand what you are asking.

I'll put it this way. The way I found out Joseph Smith was a prophet of God was by God personally assuring me that he was, with God also personally assuring me Joseph was his prophet to restore the true Church of Christ aka The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, so to find out Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God would mean God didn't tell me the truth when he told me what he told me about Joseph Smith, and the "LDS Church".

It's not like I misunderstood God and I could just think the misunderstanding is my fault. I know what God told me and what God meant when he told me what he told me, because God made it perfectly clear to me when he was telling me what he told me.

Okay. I won't argue that. What you are telling me is that your whole concept of God is based on the foundation of the LDS Church. If that falls, it all goes? Is that close?

So is mine, and God has also assured me that Joseph Smith played a key role in the restoration of Christ's true Church with all of the authority to administer blessings and ordinances from God.

Okay, gotcha.

Let me ask you a question now: Do you believe God ever told you Joseph Smith was one of his prophets and the "LDS Church" is the true Church of Jesus Christ?

If you don't, then you've never had what I have on this issue, and if he ever did, why have you now chosen to disregard what God once told you?

It's really not an either/or..it was both. I did believe God was telling me the church was true (mostly through the Book of Mormon). But, later determined that it was not true. Not that there is no truth in the church, at all. I just couldn't believe Joseph was a prophet, after some of the things I learned about him. But, I never stopped believing in what Christ has done for us.

I'm not relying upon my own judgement, though. I'm relying on what God has told me, so to choose another path would be to disregard what God has told me.

Respectfully, Ahab, I have known many people who claimed to have known something from God, who were later determined to be wrong. There's no shortage of "prophets" out there, who claim to have the truth. IMHO, the more we learn and the more experience we have with the world (both physical and spiritual), the more likely we are to realize how very little we actually "know" for certain. It can be a humbling experience.

No problem for me, but can you at least understand my perspective now and why I say what I have been saying?

Yes, I understand.

[TAO]

I just couldn't believe Joseph was a prophet, after some of the things I learned about him.

This quote could be useful.

"The Wisdom of God ofttimes appears as foolishness to men. But the greatest single lesson we can learn in mortality is that when God speaks and a man obeys, that man will always be right."

Yah... so many uses for this quote.

[ERayR]

Okay. I won't argue that. What you are telling me is that your whole concept of God is based on the foundation of the LDS Church. If that falls, it all goes? Is that close?

Were you reading the same post I was? What I read was that his assurances came form personal revelatory experiences.

[Ahab]

Okay. I won't argue that. What you are telling me is that your whole concept of God is based on the foundation of the LDS Church. If that falls, it all goes? Is that close?

Yes, that is right, or at least pretty close. The foundation of the "LDS Church" is revelation from God, especially regarding Jesus being the Christ, just as that was the foundation when Jesus told Peter that upon that rock (the revelation to him that he was) Jesus would build his Church and the gates of Hell would never prevail against it (revelation from God). Once that fails, in the sense that a person no longer receives or accepts revelation from God, then the "thing" that helps a person to be saved through Jesus Christ then goes, because we need revelation from God, continually, to help us faithfully join and remain in His church and go on to perfection.

It's really not an either/or..it was both. I did believe God was telling me the church was true (mostly through the Book of Mormon). But, later determined that it was not true.

In other words, you now believe God never told you Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and the "LDS Church" is the true Church of Jesus Christ, although you once thought God told you that in the past. Or, in other words, your answer is No.

Now try to understand that my answer is Yes. God has told me Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and the "LDS Church" (as you call it) is the true Church of Jesus Christ which God restored through Joseph Smith in a key role of the restoration.

Do you now understand why I say that I would probably disregard religion altogether if I later found out that what God has told me is not true, based on the fact that I have no doubt on what it is God has told me?

Not that there is no truth in the church, at all. I just couldn't believe Joseph was a prophet, after some of the things I learned about him.

Sounds to me like your belief that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God was not based on revelation from God, back in the days when you believed he was before you heard certain things about him that caused you to no longer believe he was.

If God had told you he was, and if you were sure it was God who had told you he was, then you would likely still continue to believe he was, wouldn't you?

But, I never stopped believing in what Christ has done for us.

My belief in what Christ has done for us, with Jesus being that Christ, is based on revelation from God in which he has told me that Jesus is the Christ, and I still accept all of that because I still accept the revelations from God, to me, in which God has told me what he has told me.

Imagine what would happen if you no longer believed God told you Jesus is the Christ, just as you no longer believe it was God who told you Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and then think about what you would do or where you would probably be or go then.

Do you now see why I say it all hinges on personal revelation from God?

If YOU don't know Jesus is the Christ, even given the fact that he actually is, what good would that fact do for you?

Likewise, to benefit from the fact that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God who played a key role in the restoration of our Lord's true Church, you also have to know that is true, otherwise you'll miss out on any associated blessings.

Respectfully, Ahab, I have known many people who claimed to have known something from God, who were later determined to be wrong. There's no shortage of "prophets" out there, who claim to have the truth. IMHO, the more we learn and the more experience we have with the world (both physical and spiritual), the more likely we are to realize how very little we actually "know" for certain. It can be a humbling experience.

Yes, there are false prophets, but there are also true prophets living in this day and age, and if you don't know Joseph Smith is one of them, among many others, then you haven't received or accepted as much revelation from God as I have.

Yes, I understand.

I think you think you do, but I'm not so sure you really do.

[Libs]

Were you reading the same post I was? What I read was that his assurances came form personal revelatory experiences.

Yes, I understood that. Revelation from God telling him that Joseph Smith is inextricably linked to God and his church. So much so, that if he found it was not true, at some point, his whole belief system would fall.

Will have to get back to this later. On my way out for a bit.

[Ahab]

Yes, I understood that. Revelation from God telling him that Joseph Smith is inextricably linked to God and his church. So much so, that if he found it was not true, at some point, his whole belief system would fall.

Will have to get back to this later. On my way out for a bit.

When you say "Revelation from God" do you actually think about what you are saying?

I'm talking about God actually telling me something, so it is God who is my foundation, and revelation from him is simply one of the ways he communicates with me.

Put it this way:

God telling him that Joseph Smith is inextricably linked to God and his church (since God used him as an instrument to restore the true Church of Christ). So much so, that if he found it was not true, (with "it" being God telling me something through revelation) at some point, his whole belief system would fall (because my belief system is based on what God tells me, personally.)

You seem to be able to say the words, but you don't show me that you understand what I am saying.

Put yourself in my place. If God told you something, and then you later found out that what God told you wasn't true, what would you do then? Who would you learn from?

And btw, I'm not talking about confusing Satan with God, with it sometimes taking a while to tell the difference between them. I'm asking you what you would do if you found out the person you know is God (not Satan) told you something which was not true. Who would you turn to then, through Jesus Christ?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I would not assume God did not tell me the truth, I would assume I misunderstood something in the answer I thought I received. I would try to figure out what was amiss about myself that I got the "assurance" wrong.

[Ahab]

I would not assume God did not tell me the truth, I would assume I misunderstood something in the answer I thought I received. I would try to figure out what was amiss about myself that I got the "assurance" wrong.

The whole point of receving "faith" from God is so you can be "sure" about what God is telling you to be "sure" about.

In other words, when you receive faith from God, and you know it's from God, you're sure about the fact that it's God, and you're also sure about what he is tellilng you, so that as long as you rely on your assurance from God, which God gave you, you have no need to ever doubt what he assures you about.

Now, with that in mind, what would ever cause you to believe that anything God ever told you was not true?

If you're sure it was God, and you're also sure about what he told you, why wouldn't you just continue to stick with what God has told you?

For example, if God told you the "LDS Church" was the true Church of Christ, and Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, why would you ever doubt it?

... and where might you end up if you ever did doubt it, and continued to doubt it, so that at some point you no longer believed it was God who told you what he told you?

[Libs]

When you say "Revelation from God" do you actually think about what you are saying?

I'm talking about God actually telling me something, so it is God who is my foundation, and revelation from him is simply one of the ways he communicates with me.

Put it this way:

God telling him that Joseph Smith is inextricably linked to God and his church (since God used him as an instrument to restore the true Church of Christ). So much so, that if he found it was not true, (with "it" being God telling me something through revelation) at some point, his whole belief system would fall (because my belief system is based on what God tells me, personally.)

You seem to be able to say the words, but you don't show me that you understand what I am saying.

Put yourself in my place. If God told you something, and then you later found out that what God told you wasn't true, what would you do then? Who would you learn from?

And btw, I'm not talking about confusing Satan with God, with it sometimes taking a while to tell the difference between them. I'm asking you what you would do if you found out the person you know is God (not Satan) told you something which was not true. Who would you turn to then, through Jesus Christ?

I understand what you're saying, but you are suggesting that it's possible for God to lie. I don't think that's possible. Therefore, if something I thought God told me, turned out to be untrue, I wouldn't blame God, but rather my own misunderstanding.

You want me to understand something that I don't believe is possible...that God could actually lie. That's not possible.

Fact is, I thought God was telling me something about the Book of Mormon (not Joseph Smith - I never had any direct revelation about him). I thought I had been given revelation about the Book of Mormon. I had an experience with it that led me to believe that it was true, but later had second thoughts. Truthfully, I think there are some stories in there that are inspired (like Lehi's dream about the tree of life), and it's even possible that Joseph (or someone else) was used, to share these stories. I think that's what I picked up on, when I had my experiences with it. But, I don't think the book is actual history. Doesn't mean it isn't of value, though, IMHO.

[TAO]

I understand what you're saying, but you are suggesting that it's possible for God to lie. I don't think that's possible. Therefore, if something I thought God told me, turned out to be untrue, I wouldn't blame God, but rather my own misunderstanding.

Alas, this isn't where our mind goes, usually. For example, I base my belief in God in the first place, totally on the spirit. If that pure moment, where I knew God existed, as the Book of Mormon said he did, in the way the Book of Mormon described, is proved incorrect, my belief in God dies with it. The truth given to me by the spirit is all valid, or it is not.

If we were to blame it on misunderstanding, then we would be lost, for we could not even trust any spirit, for we would know not which one were true. We knew in that moment, that we indeed, were not dreaming, that we indeed had a pure impression, and if a pure and gloriously happy impression isn't correct - than nothing is.

You want me to understand something that I don't believe is possible...that God could actually lie. That's not possible.

No, we want you to understand, that because it is not possible, we do not think we could separate from our belief in Mormon concepts without separating from belief in God as well; they are linked for us in our driving experiences. In other words, we do not view the existence of God as a given. We believe it must be obtained through the Spirit as all truths are. And no spirit, means no reason to believe.

Fact is, I thought God was telling me something about the Book of Mormon (not Joseph Smith - I never had any direct revelation about him). I thought I had been given revelation about the Book of Mormon. I had an experience with it that led me to believe that it was true, but later had second thoughts.

I have had second thoughts as well, but then I remember, that moment, when I first read it to actually see if it was true. And I remember that I have not had such a wonderful experience since then. And I remember, no person has experienced what I have; only I can be the judge of whether it was accurate or not. And I know it to be accurate. I know, that I could not lie to myself about what I had felt. And I know at that moment, I had no deception in my heart; I was totally focused on the Spirit. A wrong answer, for me, means, that the Spirit does not exist. And without that, it would be futile to discover whether there was a God at all. The Spirit is the thing that leads to all truths relating to God, and in him will I discover in whom God wishes me to trust.

Truthfully, I think there are some stories in there that are inspired (like Lehi's dream about the tree of life), and it's even possible that Joseph (or someone else) was used, to share these stories. I think that's what I picked up on, when I had my experiences with it. But, I don't think the book is actual history. Doesn't mean it isn't of value, though, IMHO.

Nevertheless, I knew in that moment, that the events described in the BoM really happened. I know the truth of it, and I cannot deny it. No statement of 'oh this is how he did it' will get me to change, for it is totally based on the feeling the Spirit gave me. Not on my lens, for I knew not the Book was true till the Spirit told me. As the verse goes:

John 3:8

The ^awind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the ^bSpirit."

I base all things on the spirit, and let myself blow in the wind, letting the Spirit carry me where it will. No person will convince me otherwise, for it is in God, Jesus, and the Spirit that I put all my heart and trust into. Men may murmer all they like, but they lack the Spirit's delightful insight, that they do.

[Libs]

Alas, this isn't where our mind goes, usually. For example, I base my belief in God in the first place, totally on the spirit. If that pure moment, where I knew God existed, as the Book of Mormon said he did, in the way the Book of Mormon described, is proved incorrect, my belief in God dies with it. The truth given to me by the spirit is all valid, or it is not.

Agree with that. It took me awhile, but I don't invalidate my spiritual experiences with the Book of Mormon. I think God can use anything to reach us, to touch us and let us know he is there. But, my experience was limited to the book. I never had any other assurances or experiences that led me to believe everything about the church was true, and I really don't believe the LDS Church is my path, although it may be yours, and that's great.

If we were to blame it on misunderstanding, then we would be lost, for we could not even trust any spirit, for we would know not which one were true. We knew in that moment, that we indeed, were not dreaming, that we indeed had a pure impression, and if a pure and gloriously happy impression isn't correct - than nothing is.

Yes, I had a difficult time with the "trusting in the spirit" issue, when I determined that I had made a mistake in judgment. But, I'm the one who expanded on the spiritual experience, I had, by accepting things I really did not have a spiritual witness of...like Joseph Smith and many of the teachings in the church. Never had a spiritual witness of most of it. I thought that I "should"...but, never did. I'm okay with that. I'm still following the spirit, as it leads me.

[TAO]

Agree with that. It took me awhile, but I don't invalidate my spiritual experiences with the Book of Mormon. I think God can use anything to reach us, to touch us and let us know he is there. But, my experience was limited to the book. I never had any other assurances or experiences that led me to believe everything about the church was true, and I really don't believe the LDS Church is my path, although it may be yours, and that's great.

I've had feelings with several things...

I first had it with the book...

then I had it with several somewhat obscure LDS doctrine...

and then finally, with modern day prophets.

So yah, my path be sealed.

Yes, I had a difficult time with the "trusting in the spirit" issue, when I determined that I had made a mistake in judgment. But, I'm the one who expanded on the spiritual experience, I had, by accepting things I really did not have a spiritual witness of...like Joseph Smith and many of the teachings in the church. Never had a spiritual witness of most of it. I thought that I "should"...but, never did. I'm okay with that. I'm still following the spirit, as it leads me.

Maybe the day will come when you will receive that witness. I don't know when it will be, but I'm sure he has a plan for you.

[Ahab]

I understand what you're saying, but you are suggesting that it's possible for God to lie.

Apparently you do NOT understand what I am saying, because that is NOT what I'm suggesting.

I'm saying that I believe whatever God tells me, because I know God tells the truth... all the time.

Where are you getting the idea that I believe it's possible for God to lie? It's certainly not coming from me, because I do not believe that is possible.

I don't think that's possible.

Good, then we're in agreement on that.

Therefore, if something I thought God told me, turned out to be untrue, I wouldn't blame God, but rather my own misunderstanding.

That makes sense to me, because in that case you would be the one who was wrong, but I'm not just talking about cases where you think it is God who is telling you something. I'm talking about cases, or instances, where it actually is God who is telling you (or me, or anyone else) something, and in such cases God is not the one who is wrong.

For example, God has assured me that Joseph Smith spoke for him in many instances when Joseph said something, such that God was assuring me that what Joseph was saying was what God inspired him to say, or write, as aided by his own revelation from God. And thus, in that way, Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.

Now, if you were to tell me that you don't believe it was God who inspired Joseph to write those things, and that you also don't believe it was God who assured me that it was God who inspired Joseph to write those things, your statement to me would be in direct contradiction to what God has told me, and I would still continue to believe what God has told me, both personally and through Joseph, rather than choosing to believe your contradictory statements, instead.

In other words, based on what God has told me, your word would be in contradiction to God's word, even if you were to claim that your word is God's word or in agreement with God's word, and in that situation I would choose to believe God's word to me, personally, rather than to believe your contradictory statements, instead.

Fact is, I thought God was telling me something about the Book of Mormon (not Joseph Smith - I never had any direct revelation about him). I thought I had been given revelation about the Book of Mormon. I had an experience with it that led me to believe that it was true, but later had second thoughts.

Based on my own revelation from God, you were right the first time and wrong when you changed your mind to go with your "second" thoughts.

Do you understand what I am telling you now?