If you were not LDS....

[charity's child]

No, and the Jews did not abandon God. They are still the children of Abraham. The people of the Old Covenant, which has never been revoked.

Jesus Christ fulfilled the prophecy and the law.

Why would anyone who claims to have testimony of Christ say they would become Jewish?

You have no evidence of this, and there is no reason to believe these claims. To claim that Jesus could not keep His own Church together, or that the Holy Spirit given to the Church at Pentecost was lost, flies in the face of reason, reality, history and the Church itself, whose faithful have stood as a testimony of all these things, for nearly 2000 years.

It it is a fantasy of belief.

Did you seriously just say that? You are implying that God has multiple rules - if you are a jew follow this path, if you aren't follow this path - how many paths are there back to God? Seems to me Christ made it pretty clear there is only one path back to God - through Him. So how can you say otherwise?

As to Christ keeping Hiw own Church together - everything He teaches us requires our choice to accept or reject His salvation - no one will be saved against their will. So if people choose to leave Him, He will not stop them. He will move heaven and earth to give them the opportunity to return, but He will not force them back.

As Calmoriah brought up the excellent example of the parable of the prodigal son. The father knew his son was squandering his inheritance, but he did not go out and drag his son back by the hair and tell him to stop. He allowed him to make his own choice. And welcomed him back with open arms when he returned.

[saemo]

Did you seriously just say that? You are implying that God has multiple rules - if you are a jew follow this path, if you aren't follow this path - how many paths are there back to God? Seems to me Christ made it pretty clear there is only one path back to God - through Him. So how can you say otherwise?

I didn't say Jews were still under the Mosaic covenant. The Law was fulfilled by Jesus Christ (I believe I said this, right?). The Abrahamic covenant has not been revoked.

You should understand that the LDS idea of apostasy is foreign to all but themselves. Salvation History is God's work among His creation, us. The OT is a history of God reconciling all of humanity back to Himself, which culminated and is fulfilled in Jesus Christ. The idea that God abandoned this work during periods of history is not seen by the Christian world. It is a view that comes exclusively from Mormonism.

As to Christ keeping Hiw own Church together - everything He teaches us requires our choice to accept or reject His salvation - no one will be saved against their will. So if people choose to leave Him, He will not stop them. He will move heaven and earth to give them the opportunity to return, but He will not force them back.

Indeed, but what does that have to do with Christ being unable to maintain authority over His own Body through the Holy Spirit? Do you believe that God did not do this for His Church, His own Body, for 1800 years? But suddenly something happened in 1830 where He suddenly became able (or willing) to maintain authority over His own Church?

As Calmoriah brought up the excellent example of the parable of the prodigal son. The father knew his son was squandering his inheritance, but he did not go out and drag his son back by the hair and tell him to stop. He allowed him to make his own choice. And welcomed him back with open arms when he returned.

LDS would like us to believe that for 1800 years there was no means in place to return to Him. The prodigal son could have wanted to return home but he could not. 1800 years of people being baptized, confessing sins, seeking a life of holiness, is rejected entirely as being done superfluously with no authority, when it is easy to see that all these things are a testimony to God's saving work, via His Church.

HIS CHURCH, which means He is the authority over it and it would be interesting to know how this authority would be lost?

[ERayR]

I didn't say Jews were still under the Mosaic covenant. The Law was fulfilled by Jesus Christ (I believe I said this, right?). The Abrahamic covenant has not been revoked.

The idea that God abandoned this work during periods of history is not seen by the Christian world. It is a view that comes exclusively from Mormonism.

That view does not come from Mormonism. That comes from your misunderstanding/distortion of what the fall was.

Indeed, but what does that have to do with Christ being unable to maintain authority over His own Body through the Holy Spirit? Do you believe that God did not do this for His Church, His own Body, for 1800 years? But suddenly something happened in 1830 where He suddenly became able (or willing) to maintain authority over His own Church?

LDS would like us to believe that for 1800 years there was no means in place to return to Him. The prodigal son could have wanted to return home but he could not. 1800 years of people being baptized, confessing sins, seeking a life of holiness, is rejected entirely as being done superfluously with no authority, when it is easy to see that all these things are a testimony to God's saving work, via His Church.

HIS CHURCH, which means He is the authority over it and it would be interesting to know how this authority would be lost?

Again this stems from your distortion of Mormon doctrine.

[Calm]

That view does not come from Mormonism. That comes from your misunderstanding/distortion of what the fall was.

Again this stems from your distortion of Mormon doctrine.

And since this has been pointed out over and over again, it makes me wonder why she is still distorting it, especially since it is impeding any progress in a discussion or coming to any actual understanding of either the LDS or Catholic position in relation to each other.

Now if she was simply making the claim that this is how it appears to other Christians at times, then that would be a different issue. I would not be surprised at all if others like herself misunderstood how LDS understand their own doctrine, but to continue to insist that LDS doctrine and its implications are one thing when LDS themselves understand it in significantly different ways is contrary to productive conversation.

I think it is 3DOP who first posted that wonderful quote about how a good interfaith discussion starts by trying to understand how the other understands first rather than basing the foundation of the discussion on one's own perceptions of their beliefs. I think the experience of this board has demonstrated this is essential over and over again.

[ERayR]

And since this has been pointed out over and over again, it makes me wonder why she is still distorting it, especially since it is impeding any progress in a discussion or coming to any actual understanding of either the LDS or Catholic position in relation to each other.

Now if she was simply making the claim that this is how it appears to other Christians at times, then that would be a different issue. I would not be surprised at all if others like herself misunderstood how LDS understand their own doctrine, but to continue to insist that LDS doctrine and its implications are one thing when LDS themselves understand it in significantly different ways is contrary to productive conversation.

I think it is 3DOP who first posted that wonderful quote about how a good interfaith discussion starts by trying to understand how the other understands first rather than basing the foundation of the discussion on one's own perceptions of their beliefs. I think the experience of this board has demonstrated this is essential over and over again.

But then when was saemo ever interested in good interfaith discussion?

[charity's child]

I didn't say Jews were still under the Mosaic covenant. The Law was fulfilled by Jesus Christ (I believe I said this, right?). The Abrahamic covenant has not been revoked.

But you say with one breath that God has not abandoned His people. then you say that the Jews are under the same law as everyone else. Which means either the Jews who do not accept Christianity are under condemnation or the Jews are abandoned by God. Which is it?

You should understand that the LDS idea of apostasy is foreign to all but themselves.

if it is foreign to all but the LDS, then why do God's prophets preach about apostasy over and over again in the Old Testament? Try Amos 8:11 where it speaks of a famine of the word of the Lord. Over and over again throughout the history of God's covenant people they have chosen to walk away after idols. As I said, God could force them back, but he allows people to choose salvation or condemnation.

Salvation History is God's work among His creation, us. The OT is a history of God reconciling all of humanity back to Himself, which culminated and is fulfilled in Jesus Christ. The idea that God abandoned this work during periods of history is not seen by the Christian world. It is a view that comes exclusively from Mormonism.

again, refer back to the OT you cite. During the time of Elijah when the people followed after Baal. During the times after the OT. Why are there centuries of silence between OT and NT? How do you reconcile that with your belief that there cannot have been an apostasy?

Indeed, but what does that have to do with Christ being unable to maintain authority over His own Body through the Holy Spirit? Do you believe that God did not do this for His Church, His own Body, for 1800 years? But suddenly something happened in 1830 where He suddenly became able (or willing) to maintain authority over His own Church?

I don't know what you mean by being unable to maintain authority. As I said, Christ is able to do anything. that He allows people the freedom to walk away from the truth is an example of His goodness. And what happened for 1800 years is that man chose to oppress man and the freedom to turn back to truth came slowly.

LDS would like us to believe that for 1800 years there was no means in place to return to Him. The prodigal son could have wanted to return home but he could not. 1800 years of people being baptized, confessing sins, seeking a life of holiness, is rejected entirely as being done superfluously with no authority, when it is easy to see that all these things are a testimony to God's saving work, via His Church.

No. 1800 years of people seeking a life of holiness is accepted completely and the saving ordinances for these people is being done even now, in temples all over the earth. and more years of people who never heard the word of God, but who strove to do what the inner light of Christ taught them was right, people who would have accepted the gospel had they ever been privileged to hear it. They, too, are welcomed into God's kingdom.

HIS CHURCH, which means He is the authority over it and it would be interesting to know how this authority would be lost?

His Church is here on the earth. You are welcome to come to learn all about it. Where to I send the missionaries.

[Calm]

But then when was saemo ever interested in good interfaith discussion?

It is best to give the benefit of the doubt if one wants to be on the side of promoting good interfaith discussion....even as one expresses extreme frustration at the current lack of it.

[ERayR]

It is best to give the benefit of the doubt if one wants to be on the side of promoting good interfaith discussion....even as one expresses extreme frustration at the current lack of it.

Perhaps then I will retreat back to the football games.

[Ceeboo]

I think a different possibile reason that many LDS who leave the church become atheist is the level of truth. If you have part of the truth and walk away from it, it still leaves you open to accept the remainder of the truth (as in people of other Christian faiths who remain Christian after they leave their faith). But if you have the whole truth and walk away, what is left to embrace?

Hi charity's child,

Sorry for the delayed reply (Been a little busy stuffing my face with family the last few days)

So that I am clear with your post, are you suggesting that LDS folks have the whole truth and still walk away from the LDS church? (Me thinks the reason LDS folks walk away from the LDS church is for the exact reason that they no longer/never did believe in the truth claims of the LDS church. Having very little to do with their belief in the Lord. Do you disagree?)

Thanks and peace,

Ceeboo

[thesometimesaint]

Ceeboo:

While statistically hard to prove, anecdotal evidence indicates that LDS who leave do tend towards Atheism/Agnosticism not some other form of Christianity.

[Ceeboo]

Ceeboo:

While statistically hard to prove, anecdotal evidence indicates that LDS who leave do tend towards Atheism/Agnosticism not some other form of Christianity.

This would jive with my experiences.

The question is, why? (Clearly not because they had the "whole truth", walked away from it, and are not willing to settle for part of the truth). Do you agree?

Peace,

Ceeboo

[thesometimesaint]

Ceeboo:

That some do make the change to standard Christianity is obvious even on this MB. I don't know why. But if I had to hazard a guess it would be along those same lines. Being LDS is so much more than just a religion to believe in. It is a way of life, everything we do, say, and believe is dedicated to service of the Lord through his Church. Take away the Church and there isn't a whole lot left.

[Ceeboo]

Ceeboo:

Take away the Church and there isn't a whole lot left.

Hey sometime (Thanks for being willing to share with me)

This is where we can strongly (with respect)agree to disagree.

I would also suggest that, to at least some, this is exactly at the heart of the matter amongst LDS and non-LDS.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[thesometimesaint]

Ceeboo:

I find the peaceful exchange of ideas endlessly fascinating.

[Ceeboo]

Ceeboo:

I find the peaceful exchange of ideas endlessly fascinating.

So do I friend!

This (as well as the very warm welcome I have enjoyed here) is the biggest reason I have stayed at MADB as long as I have.

Indeed, it has been my treat!

Peace,

Ceeboo

[Libs]

Ceeboo:

That some do make the change to standard Christianity is obvious even on this MB. I don't know why. But if I had to hazard a guess it would be along those same lines. Being LDS is so much more than just a religion to believe in. It is a way of life, everything we do, say, and believe is dedicated to service of the Lord through his Church. Take away the Church and there isn't a whole lot left.

Along with Ceeboo, I would have to disagree with this, and I hope you don't mind if I explain why...

There is a whole big world outside of the LDS Church...a quite wonderful world, filled with people seeking God and doing good things. Leaving the LDS church (for me) was kind of like leaving a cocoon. A little disorienting, at first, but then flying off into a marvelous new world. I did stay within Christianity, although, I wouldn't describe myself as Evangelical, at this time. I have moved into a more liberal view of Christianity and it has been very liberating. Far from "not a whole lot left" there is so much more..

Just my perspective...

[renaissance247]

After having studies with the Jehovah's Witnesses prior to joining the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and also having attended Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, Wesleyan and non-Denominational churches growing up (off an on, switching until about 15 years old, before joining the witnesses at 17 after taking a year off to think about where I belonged)... I would seriously say that if I didn't come to know and love the LDS church I'm in, I'd probably skip organized religion altogether and study/worship the Lord on my own. I believe I would understand Him and come to know Him a lot better than blindly (or openly/willingly) following a church I really don't care that much for, or believe is teaching me right.

[Libs]

I would seriously say that if I didn't come to know and love the LDS church I'm in, I'd probably skip organized religion altogether and study/worship the Lord on my own.

Not really a bad way to go, IMO.

[charity's child]

Hi charity's child,

Sorry for the delayed reply (Been a little busy stuffing my face with family the last few days)

So that I am clear with your post, are you suggesting that LDS folks have the whole truth and still walk away from the LDS church? (Me thinks the reason LDS folks walk away from the LDS church is for the exact reason that they no longer/never did believe in the truth claims of the LDS church. Having very little to do with their belief in the Lord. Do you disagree?)

Thanks and peace,

Ceeboo

Hi, Ceeboo, I'm sorry I haven't answered. Been busy for the last day.

There are two types of people that walk away from truth. The first are people who never understood it. They never really knew the truth. The second are people who for some reason have turned against truth itself. When someone turns against truth, they do not accept even partial truth.

I know this presupposes that the LDS have the whole truth, and do not expect you to agree. But you must acknowledge that if you begin with the presupposition, it is logical.

Charity's Child

[Libs]

(Me thinks the reason LDS folks walk away from the LDS church is for the exact reason that they no longer/never did believe in the truth claims of the LDS church. Having very little to do with their belief in the Lord. Do you disagree?)

As someone who left the church for that very reason (no longer believing), I agree. And I didn't turn my back on God or Christ..so, I guess you could say I didn't completely turn away from the church. My unbelief had to do with Joseph Smith, not Jesus Christ.

I guess that's why I have a difficult time understanding why some say, if they left the LDS Church, they would completely lose their faith.

[WalkerW]

Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Anglican (if I were to remain Christian).

[Ahab]

As someone who left the church for that very reason (no longer believing), I agree. And I didn't turn my back on God or Christ..so, I guess you could say I didn't completely turn away from the church. My unbelief had to do with Joseph Smith, not Jesus Christ.

I guess that's why I have a difficult time understanding why some say, if they left the LDS Church, they would completely lose their faith.

This is an important point, in my perspective, so I'd like you to at least get to the point where you "understand" what I and I think many other people are saying, even if you do not "agree" with us.

My faith is based on many assurances God has given to me to assure me of what is true, so for me to leave the "LDS Church" I would have to toss out his assurance that the "LDS Church" (formally known as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) is the true Church of Jesus Christ, which I think would essentially boil down to me losing my faith from God, at least on that issue. And if I lost my faith from God on that issue, why not on any other issue? What would stop me from losing my faith from God on ALL he has taught me, gradually, with me no longer believing anything God has assured me is true?

Why believe ANYTHING God has ever told me, or from the other side of the coin, why toss out any assurance he has given me to assure me something is true?

Are you starting to get the picture now?

You might have the idea that each assurance God gives you, or me, is independent of any of his other assurances, but in my perspective, they're all connected.

To receive faith from God on any issue is technically a miracle, because it's something that happens only because of God's intervention, but to not receive it is an all too common occurrance that results from someone simply not believing what God has told him, or her, with most people losing their faith both from and in God gradually, if they ever really "lose" it at all.

[Libs]

Thanks, Ahab. I think I, basically, understand what you're saying, but let me ask you some questions, okay?

My faith is based on many assurances God has given to me to assure me of what is true, so for me to leave the "LDS Church" I would have to toss out his assurance that the "LDS Church" (formally known as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) is the true Church of Jesus Christ

What assurances from Christ are so tied to the LDS Church that it would make you lose your faith in him, if you found out Joseph Smith was not a prophet?

My assurance in Christ is that he made it possible for me to find my way back to God. The fact that I misunderstood the path and took a slightly wrong path (IMHO) doesn't mean the way is not through him. It was my misjudgment that took me off the path, not Christ's lack of assurance or ability to guide. (That's how I saw it, when I left the church).

Why believe ANYTHING God has ever told me, or from the other side of the coin, why toss out any assurance he has given me to assure me something is true?

Ahab, I don't think God would ever really let you down. The important "assurances" will always be there, regardless of where you are on your spiritual journey.

If you are happy and feel connected to God where you are, stay and grow in the spirit. That's my current attitude about religious organizations. I think it is a much bigger shame to lose one's faith (if leaving a particular church will cause that) than to stay and find what peace and direction from God, you might. We are individuals, with individual spiritual needs. Go wherever you can grow in Christ.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Why is the assumption that God lied if you found out the LDS Church was not everything it claimed to be? There are two persons involved: God, the ever-perfect, all-knowing being and man, an imperfect, not all-knowing mortal- If there is an issue with "assurances" (as Ahab calls them), I don't think God would be the one to fault.

[Ahab]

Thanks, Ahab. I think I, basically, understand what you're saying, but let me ask you some questions, okay?

Sure.

What assurances from Christ are so tied to the LDS Church that it would make you lose your faith in him, if you found out Joseph Smith was not a prophet?

All of mine from him, if I correctly understand what you are asking.

I'll put it this way. The way I found out Joseph Smith was a prophet of God was by God personally assuring me that he was, with God also personally assuring me Joseph was his prophet to restore the true Church of Christ aka The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, so to find out Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God would mean God didn't tell me the truth when he told me what he told me about Joseph Smith, and the "LDS Church".

It's not like I misunderstood God and I could just think the misunderstanding is my fault. I know what God told me and what God meant when he told me what he told me, because God made it perfectly clear to me when he was telling me what he told me.

My assurance in Christ is that he made it possible for me to find my way back to God.

So is mine, and God has also assured me that Joseph Smith played a key role in the restoration of Christ's true Church with all of the authority to administer blessings and ordinances from God.

The fact that I misunderstood the path and took a slightly wrong path (IMHO) doesn't mean the way is not through him.

Let me ask you a question now: Do you believe God ever told you Joseph Smith was one of his prophets and the "LDS Church" is the true Church of Jesus Christ?

If you don't, then you've never had what I have on this issue, and if he ever did, why have you now chosen to disregard what God once told you?

It was my misjudgment that took me off the path, not Christ's lack of assurance or ability to guide. (That's how I saw it, when I left the church).

I'm not relying upon my own judgement, though. I'm relying on what God has told me, so to choose another path would be to disregard what God has told me.

Ahab, I don't think God would ever really let you down. The important "assurances" will always be there, regardless of where you are on your spiritual journey.

I have no doubt about that.

If you are happy and feel connected to God where you are, stay and grow in the spirit. That's my current attitude about religious organizations. I think it is a much bigger shame to lose one's faith (if leaving a particular church will cause that) than to stay and find what peace and direction from God, you might. We are individuals, with individual spiritual needs. Go wherever you can grow in Christ.

No problem for me, but can you at least understand my perspective now and why I say what I have been saying?