If you were not LDS....

[Ahab]

This has been an eye-opening experience. Continuing to participate in this thread will only serve to further depress me.

What would make you feel better? Hearing more people tell you they would join with the Methodists or Catholics if there was no true church of Jesus Christ?

Several people have said they would be happy to join one of those churches. Why don't you just go join them and be happy to at least have them to be with?

I said I don't know where I would be right now if I wasn't in the true Church of Christ, and thankfully I don't need to be worried about that because I am and can continue to be in His true church.

[Ceeboo]

I think you need to lose the righteous indignation

Considering all the posts in this thread that you could have picked as "righteous indignation", the choice you have made screams volumes to me and adds further cement to what I consider a very very telling and utterly sad thread.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[SilverKnight]

Considering all the posts in this thread that you could have picked as "righteous indignation", the choice you have made screams volumes to me and adds further cement to what I consider a very very telling and utterly sad thread.

Peace,

Ceeboo

I noticed you seized upon the one bit I edited out because I didn't want to ruffle you further - and summarily ignored the rest of the post.

I would very much like you to address this:

I think you need to look at the reasons why people of ANY religion, including your own, lose their faith and end up agnostic.

It has nothing with arrogance, pride or putting the "club" first.

Rather it's all about honest soul-searching and coming to terms with where the search for truth takes us.

And, what are the "volumes" my replies scream to you?

[Ceeboo]

I noticed you seized upon the one bit I edited out because I didn't want to ruffle you further - and summarily ignored the rest of the post.

I would very much like you to address this:

And, what are the "volumes" my replies scream to you?

You know, you would not have had to edit out my "righteous indignation" if you had not belived/typed it in the first place. Telling? Me think so.

As a LDS (One who is clearly willing to call out the "righteous indignation" of folks who are not in the club. Protect/defend at all costs), did you find any other posts in this thread that strikes you as "reighteous indignation"?

Peace,

Ceeboo

[SilverKnight]

You know, you would not have had to edit out my "righteous indignation" if you had not belived/typed it in the first place. Telling? Me think so.

It's only telling in that I have to resist the urge to be a caustic jerk on message boards - and I have second thoughts about being rude to fellows I like (including one CeeBoo).

Please let that bit go, and please read the rest of my post.

As a LDS (One who is clearly willing to call out the "righteous indignation" of folks who are not in the club. Protect/defend at all costs), did you find any other posts in this thread that strikes you as "reighteous indignation"?

Yes, I already said ELF's posts were ignorant and offensive (strictly worse than indignant).

However I find nothing wrong with other posters' replies which stated they would be Agnostic/Atheist of they were not LDS.

And you should know by now that I for one do not defend/protect the LDS Club of view at all costs.

[Ceeboo]

Please let that bit go, and please read the rest of my post.

Consider it let go!

As to the rest of your posts (questions to me):

There are many many reasons why folks loose faith, struggle with faith, gain faith, begin faith, stop faith. Very few of them, from my experience in sharing with fellow Christians for many years now, root these decisions on the "Church" they happen to attend. Rather, their faith/belief (no matter how strong it happens to be at any part of their journey) seems to be largely rooted in the belief that Jesus is Lord, period.

Anyhooo, I remain puzzled as to what exactly you are talking about placing faith in?

Peace,

Ceeboo

[SilverKnight]

Anyhooo, I remain puzzled as to what exactly you are talking about placing faith in?

Faith in the Christian God.

(which mormons do believe in)

[Nathair/|\]

I'm with Ceeboo. It seems to me that even if you can't have the whole pie, having a piece of it is better than getting no pie at all.

In answer to the OP, I would go to one of the esoteric branches of Catholicism, Orthodoxy or the Coptic church or something similar. For a few months, the only church in my range was a "rockbband" ev church, so that's where I went.

Yours under the "grateful for what I can get" oaks,

Nathair /|\

[Ceeboo]

Faith in the Christian God.

(which mormons do believe in)

And this Christian God can ONLY be found in the LDS Church?

Peace,

Ceeboo

[3DOP]

Hello 3DOP...

What do I think I would have believed when there wasn't a restored gospel? Well, probably like the Christians of the day, perhaps a little confused by all the different denominations...

The difference for LDS today is, I believe, that there is a restored gospel and our light of Christ has become so much brighter than in 1750 for instance... and if Christ's true church as restored were not in existence, where would we go when we know the difference? As I said, I'd probably believe much like I do today, but look more toward nature and quiet one-on-one prayer, for finding peace of heart (nature meaning being able to walk on the beach, etc., while praying and pondering). I wouldn't be able to just go out and join any old Christian church... not when I've had what I believe to be the restored gospel of Christ... why do you think it would be easy to do so? To me, the LDS Church isn't just an "organization"... it is a revealed and restored set of doctrines/revelations/authority/policies from God to his children that speak to my heart as the fullness of the gospel... how could I go somewhere else...

Hi Garden Girl,

If I wasn't clear allow me to try to be more plain. I can see why Mormons would be disinclined to go to another Church. I am learning that many Mormons believe in God because of their Church. For many Mormons, faith in God is accompanied with a belief that rationally speaking, the existence of God is doubtful. I know that this kind of Mormon is happy to not be in the position of defending the existence of God against modern philosophy as I must as a Catholic. I am troubled at the idea that God created a universe where one order of knowledge (rational) conflicts with another order of knowledge (faith). I want to insist that there is not conflict. It doesn't seem right for God to create a deceptive universe that appears to be uncreated. But all of us have questions to answer about why God is hidden in different ways including me.

I do not think it would be easy at all for a Mormon to pick a different church. There is no reason to think that anyone who believed in a Great Apostasy as a Latter-day Saint would change that kind of thinking upon losing faith in LDS Restoration claims. That was why, aiming low, I suggested retaining belief in God and retaining Restorationist principles while being content to suppose that the true church is currently unrevealed. That was why I made reference to other eras when God existed and there was no true church.

3DOP

[blueadept]

I'm with Ceeboo. It seems to me that even if you can't have the whole pie, having a piece of it is better than getting no pie at all.

In theory, this is a nice thought but not a practical one in regards to Mormonism from my observations. Most who leave the faith become either agnostic or atheists. These individuals normally have a fair understanding of their previous faith and they've lost that testimony for one reason or another IMHO.

Most Catholics who have left their faith, IMO, a larger percentage end up in other faiths. The reason being is that most Catholics who leave tend to be traditionalists who were raised in the faith but didn't really know their faith from my experience. So hanging onto 'a piece of it is better than getting no pie at all' perspective is a bit easier. My reason for this conclusion is that we normally had missionaries over for dinner at least once a month and I've run into at least a dozen missionaries over the years who are converts from Catholicism. I haven't been impressed with any of their proper understandings of their previous faith.

Statistics show in young adults that Catholics and Jews tend to be the weakest in explaining their faiths while Mormons tend to be the strongest among young adults. IMO, this is a factor when individuals leave their particular faith.

[SilverKnight]

And this Christian God can ONLY be found in the LDS Church?

Peace,

Ceeboo

Certainly not. Every Abrahamic faith essentially worships the same God.

And therein lies the answer: The LDS God is the Christian God, the God of the Bible, indeed the God of Western civilization.

When you realize he is imaginary, you can't just go to the next church up the street and believe.

The final straw for most LDS apostates is the realization that God was never there in the first place.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Most who leave the faith become either agnostic or atheists.

I am so grateful to be one of the former LDS who didn't lose faith in God upon leaving but has found his faith increased since that time. Praise be to God!

[ELF1024]

Statistics show in young adults that Catholics and Jews tend to be the weakest in explaining their faiths while Mormons tend to be the strongest among young adults. IMO, this is a factor when individuals leave their particular faith.

When you spend alot of your youth (like I did) being attacked by rabid members of other churches for being an evil Mormon; you tend to learn alot about your faith in order to defend it from the lies, the rumors, and the innuendo that your neighbors are using to try and convert you.

[SilverKnight]

I am learning that many Mormons believe in God because of their Church.

As do most Catholics. People believe because of the faith tradition they were raised in.

For many Mormons, faith in God is accompanied with a belief that rationally speaking, the existence of God is doubtful.

Not true. The skepticism is a painful realization that comes later.

It doesn't seem right for God to create a deceptive universe that appears to be uncreated. But all of us have questions to answer about why God is hidden in different ways including me.

And me. And many mormons.

I do not think it would be easy at all for a Mormon to pick a different church. There is no reason to think that anyone who believed in a Great Apostasy as a Latter-day Saint would change that kind of thinking upon losing faith in LDS Restoration claims.

Not true. The problem is not a religiously-implanted need to believe in Apostasy & Restoration, but rather a skepticism and critical eye towards revealed religion in general.

That was why, aiming low, I suggested retaining belief in God and retaining Restorationist principles while being content to suppose that the true church is currently unrevealed. That was why I made reference to other eras when God existed and there was no true church.

Many ex-LDS remain theists, but it is more a personal self-authored spirituality that doesn't follow any organized religion.

I think there is a misunderstanding that us mormons would rather believe in nothing (atheism) than swallow our pride and become mainstream christians.

[blueadept]

When you spend alot of your youth (like I did) being attacked by rabid members of other churches for being an evil Mormon; you tend to learn alot about your faith in order to defend it from the lies, the rumors, and the innuendo that your neighbors are using to try and convert you.

As a Catholic, I can relate.

I will admit to becoming a true Catholic after marrying my LDS wife and I've always thanked her for that.

[ELF1024]

Yes, I already said ELF's posts were ignorant and offensive (strictly worse than indignant).

Perhaps I should explain a few things that are currently going on to explain my lack of sympathy and general animosity.

After years of investigating, my girlfriend got baptized this year. The same day, she became my wife. This was in Feb.

Since then, we have been involved in an ugly custody battle over her son from a previous marriage. Her daughter, and her parents have come out and called us unfit parents because of our religion. They have accused of all kind of ridiculous things; none of which as been proven or shown to be acurate. We have had Child Protective Services out to interview her son, and my children, we have had a professional child custody advocate from the court come out and interview all of us.

All of this because of the lies, false witness, exaggerations, and heresay of a couple of mean spirited baptists who hate their own daughter/mother because she is now LDS.

My insane mother-in-law "High Priestess of Wack-a-doodle" is one of those crazies who runs around anointing people with scented olive oil, prays, while making a big scene of pulling the devil or the sickness or whatever out of whomever she is praying for. It's Priestcraft at it's worst.

Her husband, my wife's step father, comitted some of the most henious sins imaginable against my wife. The man should be locked up. Unfortunately, when my wife attempted to press charges many years ago, her mother and step-father were able to get the local Priest to testify in their behalf and the charges got dropped.

My Sister-in-Law, "The High Priestess of Rastarfarian Christ" is a pot smoking, tongue speaking nutjob who goes on Ganja fueled nonsense rants in order to impress those around her. Of course, she intreprets her own babble; which isn't even close to what speaking in tongues is supposed to be.

My Step-Son's biological father is an atheist, but it would seem that an atheist is better to have raise a child than a Mormon in their opinion. His new wife, wife number five, also has a history of being abusive to her triplet sisters. His next wife's name should be Kelly, that way we'd know she's a temp.

I spent a good deal of my life being made fun of and generally accosted for my beliefs. Growing up LDS in a southern Baptist neighborhood isn't pleasant. Especially when your a dumb Utah boy who has never had to deal with non-Members before; and suddenly transported to the deep south due to a job change.

So yes, I have an axe to grind.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I've heard it's no picnic growing up non-LDS in certain parts of Utah. The best thing you can learn to do is forgive and realize that not all "Christians" are Christians, but a great deal of them are.

[blueadept]

I've heard it's no picnic growing up non-LDS in certain parts of Utah. The best thing you can learn to do is forgive and realize that not all "Christians" are Christians, but a great deal of them are.

This really depends more on the non-LDS individual and how well they handle religious individuals. With the right temperment, LDS tend to be awesome neighbors in general once you can get past the religion thing.

[ELF1024]

I've heard it's no picnic growing up non-LDS in certain parts of Utah. The best thing you can learn to do is forgive and realize that not all "Christians" are Christians, but a great deal of them are.

I'd rather be an atheist in Utah, than a Mormon in Tennessee.

[Jeff K.]

Ahab, you don't know me thus you have no idea what I have looked into or how deep I have gone. I know that the work of God is not dependent on a man, and though a man may have many revelations and work many wonders, he can at anytime fall into error. If a man has fallen into error we must determine when that error started, and God has given us the grand key: The Book of Mormon and Bible together in our hand. If we adhere to that standard as best we can it will work out in the end.

Existent in the post is the somewhat false view that we "worship" and organization, or that we are beholden or enthralled by a prophet and hence unquestioning. Niether is true. Our scripture is replete with apostles who have seen Christ and still have fallen, and the direction of both scripture and ordinances point not to a prophet, but to Christ. We are encouraged, no, we are commanded to pray in order to recieve our own testimony that such is Christ's church, and we are commanded to pray, not through the prophet but through Jesus Christ to know if the prophet follows and is being directed by Christ. Indeed we ask the membership to confirm this twice a year.

In terms of organizational parlance. The lines of authority and organization rise up to the apostles and prophet, but the dotted line goes to Christ Himself.

[bluebell]

I'd rather be an atheist in Utah, than a Mormon in Tennessee.

It's important to remember that there always comes a time when you have to either choose to let something go, or become that which you have despised.

If you hold a grudge long enough with this, you will become to non-lds what those non-lds were to you.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

This really depends more on the non-LDS individual and how well they handle religious individuals. With the right temperment, LDS tend to be awesome neighbors in general once you can get past the religion thing.

Really? So it is the outsiders fault? I have heard MANY stories of non-LDS people growing up in Utah, who's Mormon schoolmates could not play with them because the were not Mormon. This constant denial of culpability for any issues amoung the LDS people is disturbing..

"Highest rate of anti-depressant use in Utah." answered with "Well, Utah does have a lot of non-Mormons."

"Highest rate of subscription to porn sites in Utah.' answered with "Well, not everyone in Utah is Mormon."

etc..

Such pride is astonishing.

[ELF1024]

It's important to remember that there always comes a time when you have to either choose to let something go, or become that which you have despised.

If you hold a grudge long enough with this, you will become to non-lds what those non-lds were to you.

Which is why I generally keep my opinion to myself.

I had gotten over alot of what happened in my youth, but with the way this year has gone, it's all been up in my face again.

I give credit to the devil and his minions for trying to keep me from rejoining the Church, or it's the same group trying to cause my new wife and I to split up. You can call it wishful thinking or deluding myself if you choose, it's just what I happened to believe at the moment.

In any case, it's been a rotten year, and while there may eventually be a light at the end of the tunnel, it isn't in sight yet. I just hope when we do see it, the darn thing isn't another oncoming train.

[bluebell]

Really? So it is the outsiders fault? I have heard MANY stories of non-LDS people growing up in Utah, who's Mormon schoolmates could not play with them because the were not Mormon. This constant denial of culpability for any issues amoung the LDS people is disturbing..

"Highest rate of anti-depressant use in Utah." answered with "Well, Utah does have a lot of non-Mormon."

"Highest rate of subscription to porn sites in Utah.' answered with "Well, not everyone in Utah is Mormon."

etc..

Such pride is astonishing.

Were you aware that blueadept is Catholic?