Meldrum's Book Back on the Shelves at DB

[Zakuska]

http://mrsvanous.com...s/northeast.htm

"The Northeast is covered with rivers, lakes and mostly trees."

Morm. 6: 4

4 And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites.

South america is also covered with such "Fountians".

You still havent dealt with the maps copied from the cane drawings of the Prophet Joseph Smith saying the land Bountiful was in MesoAmerica, the River Nephi was next to an unfinished south American Temple. Im waiting?

[Scott Lloyd]

Do you? I just referred to its use.

loan shift: change or extension of the meaning of a word through the influence of a foreign word, as in the application in English of the meaning

[Scott Lloyd]

Tiberius, did you write this review at DB?

Either that, or he and somebody else are using the same set of talking points.

[Zakuska]

Here Ill make it easier for you...

Please refute the maps, Journal entries, Testimonies of Prophets of God such as Brigham Young AND Joseph Smith. I dare you Tiberius.

What is this "Unfinished Temple" in central America next to the River Nephi (aka Copan) in Central America?

Im sorry Tiberius, Ill take the Journal entries of Contemporaries of the Prophet Joseph Smith over you anonymous 150+ year old tripe 10 ways to sunday!

Why are you being such a coward?!

[Anijen]

Tiberius, did you write this review at DB?

Sherlock-Cinepro-Holmes

Good detective work.

[Daniel Peterson]

Seems I caught the good Doctor's attention. I bet he didn't realize FARMS/FAIR has a PR problem.

I realize that you're deeply hostile to the people affiliated with both FARMS and FAIR, and that you've conflated the two organizations into a hybrid mythological beast.

FAIR

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/Where_Did_the_Book_of_Mormon_Take_Place.pdf

"When a man becomes a prophet, God does not instantly answer all questions and concerns about all aspects of the gospel (especially peripheral aspects such as geography)."

How convenient of a statement.

So, do you believe that God does instantly answer all of a man's questions and concerns about all aspects of the gospel when he is called as a prophet?

Personally, I don't think FARMS/FAIR [sic] know [sic] its right hand from its left.

Got it. Your position is pretty clear.

Once again: Do you reject the idea that the Amerindians of Central and South America are descendants of Book of Mormon peoples? You seem to do so, above.

[juliann]

One of the things that doesn't sit right about the attacks on Meldrum is:

1) Repetition of the frequent mantra that there is no revealed geography for the Book of Mormon.

2) Followed by repeated pointing to cherry-picked Times and Seasons quotes, asserting that the geography is revealed there.

It's like those who want to bash Meldrum want to have it both ways.

Seriously - that doesn't seem like a fair, balanced approach. Either to Meldrum or to the geography issue.

Perhaps I have missed something which is entirely possible but the only point in using JS quotes is to put them all on the table, not to prove a geography. The only reason a particular JS quote needs to be cited is because Meldrum doesn't let his audience even know it is there let alone that it contradicts him. The point is that what we have from JS is inconsistent. So I wouldn't want it both ways....I want it one way. We don't know.

[Wiki Wonka]

Tiberius,

I'm genuinely curious as to how Brother Porter's book addresses the Bernhisel letter. I don't have the book. Could you or someone who has the book be so kind as to look it up?

Joseph was referring to Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas, and Yucatan by John L. Stephens when he wrote this.

I received your kind present by the hand of Er Woodruff & feel myself under many obligations for this mark of your esteem & friendship which to me is the more interesting as it unfolds & developes many things that are of great importance to this generation & corresponds with & supports the testimony of the Book of Mormon; I have read the volumes with the greatest interest & pleasure & must say that of all histories that have been written pertaining to the antiquities of this country it is the most correct luminous & comprihensive.

(Dean C. Jessee, The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, revised edition, (Salt Lake City, Utah: Deseret Book, 2002), 533)

WW

Edited: fixed typo

[Zakuska]

Simple Wiki... he waves his hand and pretends it doesn't exist hoping his readers will never know What Joseph Smith said of the Volume and he can continue lining his pocket book with unsuspecting dupes hard earned money.

[Tiberius]

Tiberius,

Please see my last post...

How do you explain away the testimonies and Journal entries (Detailed Maps) of Patriarch Mcbride and Abdrew Hamilton both cooberating hearing Joseph Smith speak of Moronis travels from the Temple complex in central America up to Palmyra NY dedicating temples along the way, also Cooberated by President Brigham Young, John Taylor and others?

How do you explain away the testimonies and Journal entries (Detailed Maps) of Patriarch Mcbride and Abdrew Hamilton both cooberating hearing Joseph Smith speak of Moronis travels from the Temple complex in central America up to Palmyra NY dedicating temples along the way, also Cooberated by President Brigham Young, John Taylor and others?

I can't. But how do you explain away that the Prophet said the City of Manti was in MO?

Here's a map of the Susquehanna river, showing the area between Susquehanna county and Broome county, where Peter, James, and John visited:

Here's a map of Kirtland, OH where the Prophets Moses, Elias and Elijah visited:

Maybe Moroni was a resurrected being when he wandered around Central Utah after he dedicated the Guatemala and Mexico, etc Temple site as well.

But don't depend on FARMS/FAIR to appeal to anything spiritual. Most Modern Universities don't give PhDs in metaphysics. If you appeal to 1 Ne. 22: 7, they go ballistic because it destroys their crafty maps.

To solve the problem, maybe President Obama could annex Central America. Easier, like General Motors and the Banks, he could Nationalize the Dole and Chiquita Banana companies.

[Daniel Peterson]

But don't depend on FARMS/FAIR to appeal to anything spiritual. Most Modern Universities don't give PhDs in metaphysics.

Tiberius is apparently incapable of posting without gratuitously insulting fellow Latter-day Saints.

That is the aspect of certain True Believing Meldrumites that I find genuinely abhorrent. Those who attempt to foment division within the Church are not acting as its friends.

[Zakuska]

But how do you explain away that the Prophet said the City of Manti was in MO?

I'll have to CFR you on that one.

[volgadon]

Tiberius, what would you have called a tapir and what is a Nile, or river horse?

[Daniel Peterson]

Tiberius, do you reject the idea that the Amerindians of Central and South America are descendants of Book of Mormon peoples?

Third time.

[Zakuska]

Tiberius, what would you have called a tapir and what is a Nile, or river horse?

Dontcha know... Since God was illuminating the stone and Joseph Smith was merely rattling off giberish, there is no justification for this line of reasoning. The BOM should have perfect English grammer, Perfect punctuation, no mispelled words or names. be 100% true on all scientific potifications. Geez!

[Scott Lloyd]

So long as we're reminding Tiberius of questions he has not yet answered, I will add mine:

Tiberius, in what way does Joseph's mission to North American Indian tribes contradict a MesoAmerican/limited geography theory for the Book of Mormon?

You can answer Dr. Peterson's and Volgaden's questions first, if you like. And Zakuska's CFR. Just so you get around to responding to me sometime.

[Nemesis]

I can't. But how do you explain away that the Prophet said the City of Manti was in MO?

Here's a map of the Susquehanna river, showing the area between Susquehanna county and Broome county, where Peter, James, and John visited:

Here's a map of Kirtland, OH where the Prophets Moses, Elias and Elijah visited:

Maybe Moroni was a resurrected being when he wandered around Central Utah after he dedicated the Guatemala and Mexico, etc Temple site as well.

But don't depend on FARMS/FAIR to appeal to anything spiritual. Most Modern Universities don't give PhDs in metaphysics. If you appeal to 1 Ne. 22: 7, they go ballistic because it destroys their crafty maps.

To solve the problem, maybe President Obama could annex Central America. Easier, like General Motors and the Banks, he could Nationalize the Dole and Chiquita Banana companies.

There has been a number of calls for reference for you that you are conveniently ignoring. Answer them or retract the statements soon or I will get to us my new nifty ban function.

Nemesis

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I can't. But how do you explain away that the Prophet said the City of Manti was in MO?

He did? Were and when did he say this and on what occasion. I have never heard this. I don't believe this is even folk lore doctrine as I would have at least heard it in seminary.

[Tiberius]

There has been a number of calls for reference for you that you are conveniently ignoring. Answer them or retract the statements soon or I will get to us my new nifty ban function.

Nemesis

My apologies, Nemesis Senior Admin. Duty called me away from this end of the internet.

Tiberius is apparently incapable of posting without gratuitously insulting fellow Latter-day Saints.

That is the aspect of certain True Believing Meldrumites that I find genuinely abhorrent. Those who attempt to foment division within the Church are not acting as its friends.

I find it amazing that I have been referred to on these boards by the pejoratives "sockpuppet" and now "Meldrumite" - yet I'm the one threatened with being cast off into Outer Darkness. And I'm sure the admins have scoured their internet server logs, to determine my IP address worthiness, differs from others who have been banned for "fomenting."

Forgive me for not being worthy of standing upon thy Holy Rameumptom, thou good-intended Dr. Peterson. Whilst all around the Meldrumites (your pejorative) are being led away by the silly traditions of The Brethren and their hearts stolen away into believing in things to come, which they know nothing about, i.e. the New Jerusalem. Hence, Ancient Studies and criticizing Porter/Meldrum for referring to Prophecies and Promise? I didn't realize you spoke for The LDS Church, and that it had an official position of the Book of Mormon occurring in Mesoamerica. Thus my opinion being "fomomentous?" Woe unto those who take offense, and play the victim, to get those of a differing opinion banned? Nothing new under the sun, apparently. Maybe Harry Reid (Liberals) demanding Rush Limbaugh's (Conservatives) employer to shut him up, is similar, but I digress.

Answer them or retract the statements soon.

Manti in the Land of Missouri, so declared Joseph Smith during (?)Zion's March(?)

P.109 Porter, Meldrum, Prophecies & Promises Footnotes 67, 68

(It's only $24.95 before tax, S&H)

Footnotes:

67; Andrew Jenson, The Historical Record, Vol 7, 601.

68; Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3:239.

My apologizes if I didn't use the proper Chicago Style, or other, of footnote referencing.

I'm just a lowly Bachelor in the Secular Temples of the Three Degrees of Academic Glory.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I find it amazing that I have been referred to on these boards by the pejoratives "sockpuppet" and now "Meldrumite" - yet I'm the one threatened with being cast off into Outer Darkness. And I'm sure the admins have scoured their internet server logs, to determine my IP address worthiness, differs from others who have been banned for "fomenting."

No reason to get snarky, he didn't call you a "Meldrumite". He said that you are exhibiting some similar traits of what DCP dubs a "Meldrumite" (Never heard of taht term until just the other day). I just thought I would point that out to you.

[Daniel Peterson]

I find it amazing that I have been referred to on these boards by the pejoratives "sockpuppet" and now "Meldrumite" - yet I'm the one threatened with being cast off into Outer Darkness.

I haven't termed you a "sockpuppet," and I've explained that "Meldrumite" is not intended as a pejorative.

Forgive me for not being worthy of standing upon thy Holy Rameumptom, thou good-intended Dr. Peterson. Whilst all around the Meldrumites (your pejorative) are being led away by the silly traditions of The Brethren and their hearts stolen away into believing in things to come, which they know nothing about, i.e. the New Jerusalem.

It remains to be determined whether you're actually in harmony, or even in superior harmony, with the Brethren.

Fourth time: Do you reject the notion that the Amerindians of Central and South America are descendants of the peoples of the Book of Mormon? From comments made above, it seems that you do. Please clarify.

I didn't realize you spoke for The LDS Church, and that it had an official position of the Book of Mormon occurring in Mesoamerica.

Nor did I.

Have I made either of those claims? If so, please demonstrate where I did.

[Tiberius]

Tiberius, what would you have called a tapir?

What is a Nile, or river horse?

You're assuming that a horse Nephi saw while journeying in the forests of the wilderness was a tapir while walking in a jungle?

1 Nephi 8:25 And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the *** and the horse...."

What's on the flag representing the Country of Lebanon? And you don't think Lehi and his family knew of the Forests of Lebanon? And that the Solomon's Temple which Nephi built a Temple after the manner of, didn't use Cedar Trees as recorded on the Brass Plates and easily viewed in Jerusalem?

Maybe Lehi was never worthy of a Temple Recommend?

[sigh]

[volgadon]

You're assuming that a horse Nephi saw while journeying in the forests of the wilderness was a tapir while walking in a jungle?

1 Nephi 8:25 And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the *** and the horse...."

What's on the flag representing the Country of Lebanon? And you don't think Lehi and his family knew of the Forests of Lebanon? And that the Solomon's Temple which Nephi built a Temple after the manner of, didn't use Cedar Trees as recorded on the Brass Plates and easily viewed in Jerusalem?

Maybe Lehi was never worthy of a Temple Recommend?

[sigh]

Sigh, you dodged the question. What would YOU have called a tapir, and what is a Nile, or river horse?

And as for jungles, Hebrew has never had a word of its own to describe them. Forest was used.

[Calm]

never mind, I managed to grasp the logic after all.

[cinepro]

Sigh, you dodged the question. What would YOU have called a tapir, and what is a Nile, or river horse?

And as for jungles, Hebrew has never had a word of its own to describe them. Forest was used.

Here is the critical flaw in the "loan shifting" argument.

If we remember that Nephi was writing in a different language, then that would mean that he had some word (let's say "sus") that he applied to the New World animal (let's hypothesize a "tapir"). So in 590BC, we can make the argument that "sus" = "tapir". Great, that makes sense. Problem solved.

But then, when Enos uses the word "sus" 170 years later, does the Nephite word "sus" mean "horse", or does it mean "tapir"?

Then, when Alma uses the word several hundred years later, does the Lamanite use of the word "sus" mean "horse", or "tapir"?

And so on.

I am willing to accept that Nephi used the most convenient word he knew and applied it to an unusual animal. But at that point, the word takes on a new meaning.

Whatever theory you have for the translation process, by the time Enos and Alma roll around, the word "sus" means "tapir", not "horse". If Moroni was doing the translation, then he would know that a "sus" is a "tapir"; he would never even know that the word "sus" once meant "horse" hundreds of years earlier and a half-world away. If Joseph is seeing pictures and images in his mind and translating loosly, then the word "sus" would be just as unusual as "cumom" or "curelom", and would be maintained in the text; or it could be translated correctly as "tapir", just as hundreds of other proper nouns were translated letter-for-letter.

At some point (shortly after Nephi uses the word "sus" to describe a new animal), the word takes on a new meaning. And there is no way any translator could have known that the Reformed Egyptian word for "tapir" was once a word for "horse" back in the Old World hundreds or thousands of years earlier. Even if the translator did know about Nephi's mistake (or "loan shifting"), they would know that the word "sus" now has two meanings: in the Old World, it means "horse", and in the New World, it means "tapir".

This is the kind of knowledge that translators have when they make a translation (especially divine translators), and it would be silly for a translator to intentionally use the Old World definition (which they wouldn't even know) incorrectly throughout the text.

In order for the loan-shifting to work, Nephi would have to include the following detail in his record:

"*Note to future readers: upon finding animals in the promised land, I encountered an odd, four-legged creature with which I was unfamiliar. It reminded me of an animal we used in the Land of Jerusalem which we called a "sus", only this one was smaller, and not ridden as we rode our suses. Thus, I have referred to this new, unusual animal as simply a "sus". As you maintain this record, please do not substitute the actual name of this creature, but instead continue to refer to it as a "sus". And if you are ever translating this record into a language called "English", please call the animal a "horse", and do not use the actual English word for the strange animal which we saw."