Meldrum's Book Back on the Shelves at DB

[Calm]

Funny how the murals in the Mesa LDS Temple, the 7th operating temple, depict Joseph Smith preaching to the "Indians" of North America.

Don't see this as an issue myself.

If you believe art defines doctrine.....

Have you ever seen the Temple Square's North Visitors' Center downstairs lifesize dioramas based on the Friberg pictures used to illustrate the missionary edition of the BoM?

Arnold Friberg on the Abinadi setting:

"And the jaguars

[David Bokovoy]

If you believe art defines doctrine.....

Yeah, me too. I'm convinced, for example, that the iron rod wasn't a railing. I don't care what LDS paintings profess, for me, it's a shepherd's staff.

[Calm]

Yeah, me too. I'm convinced, for example, that the iron rod wasn't a railing. I don't care what LDS paintings profess, for me, it's a shepherd's staff.

Makes sense.

[Tiberius]

Holy smokes!

Did someone at FARMS molest you on a campout or something? Relax buddy.

I believed they molested Mr. Ed.

I for one don't appreciate members of the Church, using the name of a deceased Apostle to bolster their claims, correcting the Book of Mormon when its translator said it was the most correct book of any on earth. (Forests are not jungles. Horses are not tapirs.) Then they attack fellow Mormons who offer no such corrections to the scriptures when proposing their own theory of a geographic location.

Jaguars did inhabit North America. A few are currently found in Southern Arizona and a species in South Florida.The last native-born jaguar in the US was killed in 1963 in Eastern Arizona Or maybe the NFL Jacksonville Jaguars mascot was lost on ya? Well, it's a "panther."

You can also find quite a few jaguars in North Scottsdale and Sedona.

But I guess the point was lost on you about the Mesa Temple. The early members actually recognized the Prophet's personal missions to the Lamanites. They weren't making up stuff like Arnold who drew heads two sizes too small and horses the size of elephants when they should have been tapirs. [snicker]

The scriptures say it was a rod. Of iron. Confirmed by two witnesses. And the New Testament. (Nor is "free agency" found therein.) Loan-shift and correct away: http://scriptures.lds.org

[Zakuska]

I wouldn't be surprised if it were the most enthusiastic Meldrum supporters who wrote the earliest reviews. There are a few more posted since the book when back on the website:

Meldrum's geography seems to be upheld by these "pillars":

- Statements by early Church leaders (especially Joseph Smith)

- DNA Evidence (obviously, Meldrum's specific interpretation of it)

- USA = "Promised Land"

- Claims of evidence found in that geographical area (including the Michigan relics?)

These four aspects of the geography seem to be very compelling to some people.

Im unaware of any "cement" buildings being constructed nor cement being used by Native Americans in the Great Lakes area. How does Meldrum and crew get around that problem?

[Zakuska]

Are you suggesting that Joseph was the only prophet and that those subsequent to him should be discounted? When the modern prophets tell us that Joseph had no revealed geography, are you suggesting that they are in error?

More importatnly... How do Meldrum and crew explain away the prophet Joseph Smith and the Twelve Apostles pronouncments in the Times and Seasons, identifying Meso American sites as the "land of Zarahemla"?

A close scrutiny of the words of the Book of Mormon coupled with the scientific studies of the geography, archaeology, language, ancient history and other cultural aspects during the time period of the Book of Mormon, identify Mesoamerica as the land of the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith, as editor of the Times and Seasons, directed our attention to this fact in an editorial (Oct. 1, 1842). He stated that

[Anijen]

Does his book say where the northern area is that had deforestation? I am thinking they would have to go to the arctic circle almost to get out of the forests.

[notHagoth7]

More importatnly... How do Meldrum and crew explain away the prophet Joseph Smith and the Twelve Apostles pronouncments in the Times and Seasons, identifying Meso American sites as the "land of Zarahemla"?

Zak,

I don't favor any specific American geographic model yet, but here's an initial answer:

1) If one reads that article, many might quickly conclude it is not the words of Joseph Smith.

2) And even if you prefer to believe it was, you've overstated the case for Zarahemla

Here's what the original article specifically says.

We are not going to declare positively that the ruins of Quirigua are those of Zarahemla, but when the land and the stones, and the books tell the story so plain, we are of [the?] opinion, that it would require more proof than the Jews could bring to prove the disciples stole the body of Jesus from the tomb, to prove that the ruins of the city in question, are not one of those referred to in the Book of Mormon.

So the Meridian article overstated the strength of those statements considerably.

But for the sake of discussion, let's say it was one of the Nephite cities...

From which era? That question is pretty crucial.

What chronology do the ruins and heiroglyphs of Quirigua suggest?

The author wants to draw the connection between Nephites and Central America. Fine.

And he is kind enough to state his basis for doing so:

the Isthmus of Darien and once embraced several hundred miles of territory from north to south.-The city of Zarahemla, burnt at the crucifixion of the Savior, and rebuilt afterwards, stood upon this land as will be seen from the following words in the book of Alma:-'And now it was only the distance of a day and half's journey for a Nephite, on the line Bountiful, and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea; and thus the land of Nephi, and the land of Zarahemla was nearly surrounded by water: there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward.' [see Book of Mormon 3d edition, page 280-81.]

He isn't citing revelation for this correlation. He is citing opinion - and parallels between the Nephite account, Stephens' findings, and local geography.

To continue:

It is certainly a good thing for the excellency and veracity, of the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon, that the ruins of Zarahemla have been found where the Nephites left them: and that a large stone with engravings upon it as Mosiah said; and a 'large round stone, with the sides sculptured in hieroglyphics,' as Mr. Stephens has published, is also among the left remembrances of the, (to him,) lost and unknown.

Are there people here who believe that the large round stone which Mr. Stephens published is one that the Nephites left?

If so, what's the basis for asserting that, other than this article?

Does any of the content in that stone corroborate the assertion?

Seems to me that the Great Lakes proponents are throughing Joseph Smith himself under the bus to prop up their personal theories.

Not really.

It seems instead as if people want to put words in Joseph's mouth.

When it seems more evident, if one reads the article, that it doesn't have any of the flavor of Joseph's other writings/utterances.

And that whoever wrote it, it is cited as opinion - not revelation.

[Tiberius]

More importatnly... How do Meldrum and crew explain away the prophet Joseph Smith and the Twelve Apostles pronouncments in the Times and Seasons, identifying Meso American sites as the "land of Zarahemla"?

Seems to me that the Great Lakes proponents are throughing Joseph Smith himself under the bus to prop up their personal theories.

And what of this Anti-Mormon site which uses these quotes to criticize LDS scholars, and by association, the LDS Church?

BOOK OF MORMON LANDS from an anti-mormon web site

Millennial Star Article

An article titled "History of Joseph Smith, "in the Mormon newspaper Millennial Star, published in England, had the following to say about the ancient City of Manti (as in the Book of Mormon):

The camp passed through Huntsville, in Randolph County [Missouri], which has been appointed as one of the Stakes of Zion, and is the ancient site of the City of Manti.... [sept. 1838] (The Latter-day Saints' Millennial Star, "History of Joseph Smith," Vol. 16, page 296, May 13, 1854)

The index of the present Book of Mormon under Manti, Land of, has: "most southerly land of Nephites" and under Manti, City of, it has: "chief city in land of Manti." All this information leads to the conclusion that the Land of Manti is allegedly in the State of Missouri, in the United States. Mormon historian and Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith, in his book Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 3, pages 239-241, came to the same conclusion.

What do you have to say to these Anti-Mormons?

We all know that FARMS/FAIR explains away The Prophet. That he was not acting as a prophet.

[notHagoth7]

One of the things that doesn't sit right about the attacks on Meldrum is:

1) Repetition of the frequent mantra that there is no revealed geography for the Book of Mormon.

2) Followed by repeated pointing to cherry-picked Times and Seasons quotes, asserting that the geography is revealed there.

It's like those who want to bash Meldrum want to have it both ways.

Seriously - that doesn't seem like a fair, balanced approach. Either to Meldrum or to the geography issue.

[dblagent007]

And what of this Anti-Mormon site which uses these quotes to criticize LDS scholars, and by association, the LDS Church?

What do you have to say to these Anti-Mormons?

We all know that FARMS/FAIR explains away The Prophet. That he was not acting as a prophet.

I think BY said that Moroni dedicate the locations of the Manti, Utah and St. George, Utah temples. I guess they were just another stopping point in 20 years of wandering.

[Zakuska]

Zak,

I don't favor any specific American geographic model yet, but here's an initial answer:

Thank you for sharing, and for the record, neither do I. I lean more to a hemespherical model at times.

1) If one reads that article, many might quickly conclude it is not the words of Joseph Smith.

2) And even if you prefer to believe it was, you've overstated the case for Zarahemla

The whole argument the JS didn't write it is a huge red herring im my estimation.

Yes the presiding Prophet has the final word (as we see with the Council of Jerusalem and James).

However, Do not the twelve hold the same keys as the presding prophet?

And who are we to pick and choose the words of the prophets which hold more sway?

It's robbing Peter to support Paul.

[Zakuska]

I think BY said that Moroni dedicate the locations of the Manti, Utah and St. George, Utah temples. I guess they were just another stopping point in 20 years of wandering.

Yes and we have the two Journal entries in church archives coaberating those "rumors" we've all heard over the years.

http://www.elektrote...ns/SCAN0003.JPG

http://www.elektrote...ns/SCAN0004.JPG

FYI, Moroni didn't just dedicate utah temples, he dedicated Farwest, Nauvoo, Independance and Kirtland temples as well.

These two brethern heard Joseph Smith speak of the wanderings of Moroni in Zions camp.

Now why would these two bretheren who heard Joseph Smith the Prophet speak both say Moroni Came from Central America. "Where the Nephites broke the old convenant" Dedicating Temples along the way to deposit the plates in Upstate NY if the final Battle had taken place in upstate NY?

[Daniel Peterson]

We all know that FARMS/FAIR explains away The Prophet. That he was not acting as a prophet.

There is no "FARMS/FAIR."

But here, unashamed and unrepentant, is yet another specimen of the potentially Church-dividing zeal to condemn active and believing fellow-members that is the signature theme of some of the more zealous Meldrumites.

Much more than any particular disagreement over Book of Mormon geography, this is what I find objectionable in Rod Meldrum's fan base. If anything provokes me to respond to Meldrumism, this will be it. And it just may do so.

"In essentials, unity," goes the old maxim. "In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity." To me, the GPS coordinates of the Jaredite city of Lib are an obvious non-essential. But unity within the Church is an absolute fundamental.

[Tiberius]

Im unaware of any "cement" buildings being constructed nor cement being used by Native Americans in the Great Lakes area. How does Meldrum and crew get around that problem?

My response to the Cement - by googling...

Susquehanna Indian Tribe History

These four tribes have been identified as the Conestoga, the people of the Great Flats or Wyoming [in PA], the Erie, and the Wenroh, the last a tribe which migrated to and became incorporated with the Hurons in 1639. The Scahentoarrhonons were probably the Massawomeckes of Smith. The name itself is derived from other forms, among which are Andasto'eronon and Gandasto`eronon, which appear in Mohawk as Ganastohgeronon. Du Creux, in his Latin map of 1660, translates this name by "Natio perticarum," meaning simply " Pole or (roof-) pole tribe." This is not satisfactory, as no account is taken of the incorporated verb -o', 'to be immersed,' 'to be contained in'; and there is a question as to the identification of the nominal element as kanasta', 'roof-pole,' for ka'nest?', 'mud,' 'clay,' is equally possible. Conestoga or Conestogues is the Anglicized form of the French spellings.

And later:

From the Jesuit Relation for 1647-48, in reference to the Rhiierrhonon, it is learned that the south shores of Lake Erie were formerly inhabited "by certain tribes whom we call the Nation of the Cat; they have been compelled to retire far inland to escape their enemies, who are farther west"; and further that they had a number of fixed towns, as they cultivated the soil. This would indicate that before this date the Erie had been forced eastward into the region along the west branch of the Susquehanna or the upper waters of the Allegheny. Now, it was from this latter region that the Wenrohronon, an allied tribe of the Neutrals, emigrated in 1639 to the Huron country.

Later in the same paragraph:

Some interesting data are obtained from an extended legend appearing on Herrman's map of Virginia and Maryland, prepared in 1670 and issued in l673. Beyond the Alleghany mountains all the streams flow westward either into "the Bay of Mexico or the West Sea," especially the first one discovered, "a very great River, called the Black Mincquaas River" (i. e., the Ohio), whereon lived the tribe of that name.

This extended legend indicates a migration up the Ohio river valley into the Eastern Great Lakes area and to the Hill Cumorah area in New York - then beyond where europeans such as Capt. John Smith encountered them. That these people later became differing tribes, one called Conestoga, which could have meant 'clay,' or 'mud' as well as 'roof pole' - or all three, possibly indicating knowledge of clay or cement used with wood was had among that area earlier.

It's also interesting that one of the Great Lakes was referred to as the 'West Sea' in the legend noted above.

Even earlier in History, this site speaks of the Havana Cement Hollow phase of the Hopewell, i.e., one of 3 phases of the Middle Woodland, though it's referring to ceramics.

Why do modern-day archealogists refer to it as cement? It's not concrete, which is cement with stone.

Prehistory of the Central Mississippi Valley

But if you want to confuse Central America concrete with cement in light of

Mormon 5:5

But it came to pass that whatsoever lands we had passed by, and the inhabitants thereof were not gathered in, were destroyed by the Lamanites, and their towns, and villages, and cities were burned with fire;

..that's your decision.

Burning a city would be hard, when it's made of stone.

From the first website above, 1st paragraph, a description of one early North American tribe:

Susquehanna Indian Tribe History

"Of this people [Capt. John] Smith wrote: "Such great and well-proportioned men are seldom seen, for they seemed like giants to the English, yea to their neighbors;"

If you want to believe Moroni was the ancestor of some stumpy (in relation to the English) Mayans, that's fine.

Petition SL HQ to shorten the statue on the Hill Cumorah.

All emphasis, bold, italics, in quotes above are mine.

[Zakuska]

Tiberius,

Please see my last post...

How do you explain away the testimonies and Journal entries (Detailed Maps) of Patriarch Mcbride and Abdrew Hamilton both cooberating hearing Joseph Smith speak of Moronis travels from the Temple complex in central America up to Palmyra NY dedicating temples along the way, also Cooberated by President Brigham Young, John Taylor and others?

Heres are photo copies of the Maps these two bretehern drew as they took notes of the prophet Joseph Smiths discourses.

http://www.elektrote...ns/SCAN0003.JPG

http://www.elektrote...ns/SCAN0004.JPG

Both these maps cooberate that:

1) the Land Bountiful was in Central America.

2) Moroni Walked from central Maerica to Palmyra NY

3) Moroni Travled through the great basin area on his way to NY

4) Brigham Young also said Moroni traveled theough the Great Basin areas dedicated St George and Manti on the way.

[Tiberius]

http://mrsvanous.com/Pages/NativeAmericans/northeast.htm

"The Northeast is covered with rivers, lakes and mostly trees."

Morm. 6: 4

4 And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites.

[Daniel Peterson]

If you want to believe Moroni was the ancestor of some stumpy (in relation to the English) Mayans, that's fine.

Petition SL HQ to shorten the statue on the Hill Cumorah.

So you reject the idea that the peoples of the Book of Mormon are ancestral to the Amerindians of Central and South America?

[Scott Lloyd]

But I guess the point was lost on you about the Mesa Temple. The early members actually recognized the Prophet's personal missions to the Lamanites.

Do you intend to respond to my point that "the Prophet's personal missions to the Lamanites" in no way contradict a limited geography theory about the Book of Mormon? Or do you intend to go on pretending that the point hasn't been made?

What I'm saying is that descendancy increases geometrically with each generation, and thus, by the 1830s, Lehi's descendants could easily have been dispersed throughout the entire length and breadth of the Americas, even if the events of the Book of Mormon were confined to a limited geographical area. Therefore, repeatedly bringing up Joseph's mission to North American Indian tribes really has no relevance to this debate.

[Scott Lloyd]

Loan-shift ...

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." -- Inego Montoya in "The Princess Bride"

[Tiberius]

There is no "FARMS/FAIR."

Seems I caught the good Doctor's attention. I bet he didn't realize FARMS/FAIR has a PR problem.

FAIR

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/Where_Did_the_Book_of_Mormon_Take_Place.pdf

"When a man becomes a prophet, God does not instantly answer all questions and concerns about all aspects of the gospel (especially peripheral aspects such as geography)."

How convenient of a statement.

FARMS

The Most Correct Book...

http://mi.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=4&num=1&id=98

"I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth,"

Horses in the Book of Mormon

http://mi.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=129

"It is also possible that some Book of Mormon peoples coming from the Old World may have decided to call some New World animal species a "horse" or an "***." This practice, known as "loanshift" or "loan-extension," is well known..."

How contradictory. The Book of Mormon is the most correct of any on earth, so declares FARMS.

Yet, they need to correct it, loan-shift the Book of Mormon - to fit it into "their" Geographical Theory.

FARMS/FAIR sounds the same to me.

And Dr. Peterson's upset at the "Meldrumites," his words.

Personally, I don't think FARMS/FAIR know its right hand from its left.

[Tiberius]

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." -- Inego Montoya in "The Princess Bride"

Do you? I just referred to its use.

[Zakuska]

How conventient that you failed to address the evidence. I guess Patriarch McBride, Alexander Hamilton, Brigham Young, John Taylor and others were allo in on the conspiracy theory of MesoAmerica.

Its really nice to be able to stick your finger in your ears saying "Na Na Na I can't hear you "and make all the evidence you don't like vanish into thin air isn't it?

Joseph Smith drew the map with his cane in the sand and Alexander Hamilton and Patriarch McBride copied it Tiberius.

Deal with the evidence rather then shoot the messanger.

Your credibitilty is quickly approaching NILL.

[volgadon]

Tiberius, what would you have called a tapir?

What is a Nile, or river horse?

[cinepro]

Tiberius, did you write this review at DB?

I appreciate this work as the authors first relied upon the scriptures, thus the title. It's no longer necessary to use the pointy-head approach implemented by FARMS & FAIR to "loan-shift" words in the Book of Mormon to explain away the Large and Spacious wordly criticisms of the keystone of our religion and the Marvelous Work and a Wonder which the Lord restored through his Prophet Joseph Smith. Forests are not "jungles." Horses are not "tapirs." The Book of Mormon is "The most correct of any book on earth," and Porter and Meldrum make no corrections for it.