Meldrum's Book Back on the Shelves at DB

[Tiberius]

Tiberius, are you going to evade my questions?

I'm not meaning to. I'm having a lot thrown at me.

But about forests? I've been searching for things. So sorry.

And to clinch it, here is a description of the countryside around Palenque, from John Lloyd Stephens's Incidents of Travel in central America, Chiapas and Yucatan.

OBSTACLES TO EXPLORATION. Pg. 305.

The whole country for miles around is covered by a dense forest of gigantic trees, with a growth

of brush and underwood unknown in the wooded deserts of our own country, and impenetrable in any direction except by cutting a way with a machete. What lies buried in that forest it is impossible to say of my own knowledge ;

Interesting. Fine. So "forests" is used to describe an impenetrable dense growth to people who live near wooded deserts, so impenetrable, other than cutting a way with a machete. In which this impenetrable dense growth lived and roamed horses, cattle, oxen, etc.

A machete? Hack, hack. Look a horse. Hack hack. Another horse!

If Tiberius won't accept that Hebrew has no native word for jungle, perhaps he'd be interested in the following quotes, relating to the English use of the word.

I'll accept it. Read Porter's/Meldrum's book. In it they refer to Hebrew having demonstratives, such as "this" as in this land used extensively by prophets in the Book of Mormon to indicate where they are. Would you accept that use of the Hebrew?

Ether 13:

4 Behold, Ether saw the days of Christ, and he spake concerning a New Jerusalem upon this land.

[Tiberius]

It appears to me you are being warned because of your continued neglect to respond to questions and calls for reference.

Which of 23-30 replies thrown at have I neglected in the time span required before being banned?

tick tock tick tock

For instance, my question remains unanswered: Will you explain why it is that you apparently think Joseph Smith's mission to North American Indian tribes contradicts a Meso-American or limited geography theory for Book of Mormon locales?

Can't you answer your own questions? Can't you take the other persons points of view? It helps to be a good debater.

Because Mesoamerican theorists believe everything occurred in Mesoamerica and Moroni walked to upstate New York with the plates. Or subtle variations of that theme. Did he use a tapir? How many times did he bury the plates so he could forage for food? He obviously having walked that distance in the 20 yrs between the last battle, to 421 AD - through infested lands of unknown peoples? - yet the entire Book of Mormon occurred in the little box called Mesoamerica in the Book's 1,000 year time span?

And because Joseph Smith declared where Book of Mormon events occurred in North America. Get up to speed, man.

It took 8 years to traverse the Arabian Peninsula from Jerusalem. How big is it compared to Mesoamerica?

I'm so sorry everyone if I can't get to all your questions. [sniff]

I'll guess I'll get banned and your questions will forever remain unanswered.

But that's ok. I feel the love.

[volgadon]

I'm not meaning to. I'm having a lot thrown at me.

But about forests? I've been searching for things. So sorry.

No, not about forests. Don't be so disngenious. You took the time to throw an argument my way about the forests of Lebanon.

so let me repeat the questions.

What would YOU have called a tapir.

What is a Nile, or river horse.

Interesting. Fine. So "forests" is used to describe an impenetrable dense growth to people who live near wooded deserts, so impenetrable, other than cutting a way with a machete. In which this impenetrable dense growth lived and roamed horses, cattle, oxen, etc.

It shows that to say that the BoM text couldn't possibly refer to a jungle because it says forest is false.

A machete? Hack, hack. Look a horse. Hack hack. Another horse!

Haha it is to laugh. Your use of satire and cutting wit is utterly devastating.

I'll accept it. Read Porter's/Meldrum's book.

If I ever come across a copy which I don't have to plunk down hard-earned cash for. There are plenty of other books I would rather get first, none of them are from the Maxwell Institute either, so don't think I'm picking on Meldrum.

In it they refer to Hebrew having demonstratives, such as "this" as in this land used extensively by prophets in the Book of Mormon to indicate where they are. Would you accept that use of the Hebrew?

Depends. You are going to have to go into it in more detail, AFTER you've answered my questions. I don't like to say yea or nay over vague references to Hebrew, especially ancient Hebrew.

The D&C confirms where the New Jerusalem will be built - in Missouri. This land.

Again, would you accept that use of the Hebrew?

Again, I would like to see Meldrum's case in greater detail.

And for the record, I do not yet have a strong opinion as regards BoM geography.

[Anijen]

Tiberius

I'm not meaning to. I'm having a lot thrown at me.

You still have to answer all CFRs no matter how much is thrown at you.

The D&C confirms where the New Jerusalem will be built - in Missouri. This land.

Okay I can agree with that but show me (and this is a CFR) were the Borders of "this land" are. Are they selected to just boost theory of Meldrum and Porter are the borders selected of the US back in 1830? Could they not be hemispheric? Perhaps it is much like Zion and its multi definitions, one being, were the pure in heart are gathered

I am tired of member fighting against member. The leaders tell us to not worry about the geography but the real purpose in the Book of Mormon is bringing souls to Christ. But then we see our leaders make remarks that take one side or the other even leaders (like Joseph did, seemingly changing their minds as new discoveries were made.) Why am I accused as an apostate just because I believe in a LGT and a two hill theory? Yup bugs me just a little bit. It seems the more geography is debated we are getting further from Christ and we definitely are not one in heart, sad really.

[Scott Lloyd]

Which of 23-30 replies thrown at have I neglected in the time span required before being banned?

tick tock tick tock

Can't you answer your own questions? Can't you take the other persons points of view? It helps to be a good debater.

Because Mesoamerican theorists believe everything occurred in Mesoamerica and Moroni walked to upstate New York with the plates. Or subtle variations of that theme. Did he use a tapir? How many times did he bury the plates so he could forage for food? He obviously having walked that distance in the 20 yrs between the last battle, to 421 AD - through infested lands of unknown peoples? - yet the entire Book of Mormon occurred in the little box called Mesoamerica in the Book's 1,000 year time span?

And because Joseph Smith declared where Book of Mormon events occurred in North America. Get up to speed, man.

It took 8 years to traverse the Arabian Peninsula from Jerusalem. How big is it compared to Mesoamerica?

I'm so sorry everyone if I can't get to all your questions. [sniff]

I'll guess I'll get banned and your questions will forever remain unanswered.

But that's ok. I feel the love.

I posted this message two days ago on this thread, Post #44:

Do you intend to respond to my point that "the Prophet's personal missions to the Lamanites" in no way contradict a limited geography theory about the Book of Mormon? Or do you intend to go on pretending that the point hasn't been made?

What I'm saying is that descendancy increases geometrically with each generation, and thus, by the 1830s, Lehi's descendants could easily have been dispersed throughout the entire length and breadth of the Americas, even if the events of the Book of Mormon were confined to a limited geographical area. Therefore, repeatedly bringing up Joseph's mission to North American Indian tribes really has no relevance to this debate.

You see, Tiberius, the way things work around here is that you don't just come on and spout insulting rhetoric. You are expected to address, in substance, responses that are put to you. Perhaps your continued failure to do this is the reason the moderators are getting testy with you.

[Tiberius]

No, not about forests. Don't be so disngenious. You took the time to throw an argument my way about the forests of Lebanon.

I'm working backwards on the thread...my error. Was that thrown at you or to all?

So let me repeat the questions.

What would YOU have called a tapir.

What is a Nile, or river horse.

You're begging the question.

What are you? An Apologetic for FARMS, or for the Book of Mormon and "Mormonism"?

The tapir as horse is based on a hypothetical that the Lehites landed in Mesoamerica, taken up by FARMS:

http://mi.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=12&num=1&id=305 and their hypothetically injecting themselves into a real situation (Lehites observing the new Land) to defend their hypothetical LGT. And since you're not convinced on a Geo location, why are you concerned?

I've criticized it. Ask FARMS or the Maxwell Institute.

You're also making the assumption that horses didn't exist in the Americas - which FARMS also assumed - to make their defense of calling a tapir a horse. This despite horse being found here.. So how you, I, or FARMS treat tapirs, is not important. The point is that FARMS has to make up stuff about the Book of Mormon, instead of outright defending the Book of Mormon.

What would you have called it? It looks more like an elephant. And the young are striped. An ElephantZebra?

Like Cyrano de Bergerac, the tapir speaks for FARMS. LOL!

[volgadon]

So you would have called a tapir an elepehant? HAHAHAH tapirs aren't elephants!!! Two can play at your game. Anyway, how would Nephi have known what an elephant looked like? They weren't herds of pachyderms majestically sweeping through the hills of Jerusalem.

Now for the second question. What is a Nile, or river horse?

What am I? An Israeli member of the church with a keen interest in history.

My concerns are not over the geography, they are over something being ignorant and using that ignorance to mock others.

[Daniel Peterson]

Like Cyrano de Bergerac, the tapir speaks for FARMS. LOL!

First time: Is your primary interest in understanding and defending the Book of Mormon, or in gratuitously insulting and attacking fellow believers in the Book of Mormon?

Sixth time: Do you reject the idea that the Amerindians of Central and South America are descendants of the peoples of the Book of Mormon? Your comments posted previously in the thread suggest that you do. Please clarify.

[Zakuska]

You're also making the assumption that horses didn't exist in the Americas - which FARMS also assumed - to make their defense of calling a tapir a horse. This despite horse being found here.. So how you, I, or FARMS treat tapirs, is not important. The point is that FARMS has to make up stuff about the Book of Mormon, instead of outright defending the Book of Mormon.

What would you have called it? It looks more like an elephant. And the young are striped. An ElephantZebra?

Like Cyrano de Bergerac, the tapir speaks for FARMS. LOL!

I think you're making a bigger deal over the Tapir issue than it really is. It was a "suggestion" that was merely a "Possibility". Farms and Fair and other groups have also put up funding for radio carbon dating of horse/elephant remains the continent over. Thats alot more than I can say for you. It would mean alot more if you'd put your money were your mouth is like they do. That also doesn't sound like they are very commited to any one idea in paticular, but are following ALL avenues of thought.

PS. Elephants were here until about 400AD. Do a Google search on Cuvieronious or Gomphotheris.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

First time: Is your primary interest in understanding and defending the Book of Mormon, or in gratuitously insulting and attacking fellow believers in the Book of Mormon?

But Dr. Peterson your begging the question. Lol.

[Tiberius]

I posted this message two days ago on this thread, Post #44:

You see, Tiberius, the way things work around here is that you don't just come on and spout insulting rhetoric. You are expected to address, in substance, responses that are put to you. Perhaps your continued failure to do this is the reason the moderators are getting testy with you.

You're a strange one. As if there haven't been insulting rhetoric made toward Meldrum. (Do you need a CFR on that? Look yourself.) If you know what the truth is, then why are you so concerned about receiving a reply from your two-day old post from someone you consider to be insulting? You sir, due to your lack of logic and you're easiness in being insulted, should be ignored.

Actually, the way things work around here, is to postulate an insulting discussion thread (this one for example) toward one or many who threaten ones craft, then attack those who question or attack that insult, then to pester that party with multiple unrelated questions - each their own pet theory. Then when that party doesn't have the time to respond to each, threaten with more insults (pejoratives, "sockpuppets" & "Meldrumites" by Dr. Daniel C. Peterson of the Maxwell Institute of all people) and abandonment, until the one threatened gives up in anger and responds in kind leaving the real and exact impression that the Mormons who inhabit FARMS or the Maxwell Institute are a bunch of Pompous Tapirs. While those who defend their popular opinion of the day because they too want to be popular, revel in their lack of logic but in illogical attacks and association with FARMS. You Scott Lloyd, appear to be such a person.

So what is that I know that you don't?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Actually, the way things work around here, is to postulate an insulting discussion thread (this one for example) toward one or many who threaten ones craft, then attack those who question or attack that insult, then to pester that party with multiple unrelated questions - each their own pet theory.

What are you talking about. CFR. I have seen more negative rhetoric from you than any one else in this thread.

Then when that party doesn't have the time to respond to each, threaten with more insults (pejoratives, "sockpuppets" & "Meldrumites" by Dr. Daniel C. Peterson of the Maxwell Institute of all people) and abandonment, until the one threatened gives up in anger and responds in kind leaving the real and exact impression that the Mormons who inhabit FARMS or the Maxwell Institute are a bunch of Pompous Tapirs. While those who defend their popular opinion of the day because they too want to be popular, revel in their lack of logic but in illogical attacks and association with FARMS. You Scott Lloyd, appear to be such a person.

So what is that I know that you don't?

Lets see, I see you as the one calling names here.

[Tiberius]

#44 COMING UP!!

Do you intend to respond to my point that "the Prophet's personal missions to the Lamanites" in no way contradict a limited geography theory about the Book of Mormon? Or do you intend to go on pretending that the point hasn't been made?

What I'm saying is that descendancy increases geometrically with each generation, and thus, by the 1830s, Lehi's descendants could easily have been dispersed throughout the entire length and breadth of the Americas, even if the events of the Book of Mormon were confined to a limited geographical area. Therefore, repeatedly bringing up Joseph's mission to North American Indian tribes really has no relevance to this debate.

And why couldn't that migration happened southward into Mesoamerica thus making Joseph's missions along with his other statements about North America, relevant? Could you not have come up with that question yourself? DNA is also an issue. Read Porter's/Meldrum's book. Isn't that book what this thread is about? If you haven't read it, then why your comments? You sir, need to look at the bigger picture, instead dissecting out Joseph's missions to the Lamanites.

[Scott Lloyd]

And why couldn't that migration happened southward into Mesoamerica

Not only do I think a southward and a northward migration possible, I think it quite likely. That is to say, I believe that virtually every American Indian -- whether in North or South America -- is a lineal descendant of Lehi. And I believe this to be the case, even assuming the correctness of a limited geography theory for the Book of Mormon with events confined to Meso-America. Which is why I believe your argument pertaining to temple murals depicting Joseph Smith preaching to North American Indians is irrelevant and ill-considered. Nothing in a Meso-American model for Book of Mormon geography -- as I understand it -- precludes North American Indians from having descended from Lehi.

By the way, do you intend to respond to Professor Peterson's question? The one he has posed -- what? -- six times now? I too am curious about what your response would be.

[Daniel Peterson]

You sir, due to your lack of logic and you're easiness in being insulted, should be ignored.

Which, being interpreted, means that Tiberius isn't going to answer your question.

Actually, the way things work around here, is to postulate an insulting discussion thread (this one for example) toward one or many who threaten ones craft

Tiberius now insults his enemies, the faithful members of the Church who are associated with FARMS (better, the Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship) and FAIR, by implicitly but unmistakably associating them with the Zoramites (compare Alma 35:3) and the Gadianton robbers (compare Helaman 2:4).

3 Nephi 11:28-30.

the Mormons who inhabit FARMS or the Maxwell Institute are a bunch of Pompous Tapirs. While those who defend their popular opinion of the day because they too want to be popular, revel in their lack of logic but in illogical attacks and association with FARMS. You Scott Lloyd, appear to be such a person.

Revelation 12:10.

It's interesting, in this light, to reflect on the fact that the word devil comes from the Greek word diaballo, which means "to accuse."

Second time: Is your primary interest in understanding and defending the Book of Mormon, or in gratuitously insulting and attacking fellow believers in the Book of Mormon?

Seventh time: Do you reject the idea that the Amerindians of Central and South America are descendants of the peoples of the Book of Mormon? Your comments posted previously in the thread suggest that you do. Please clarify.

[rockslider]

... FARMS (better, the Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship)

Not sure why I get a kick out of this. I assume it's because the underlying message is: Maxwell Institute (better, we prefer our old name FARMS but sure like the big brother backing).

I say honor your new sponsor already.

[Daniel Peterson]

Not sure why I get a kick out of this. I assume it's because the underlying message is: Maxwell Institute (better, we prefer our old name FARMS but sure like the big brother backing).

Nope. Amateur mind-reading plainly isn't your strong suit.

And I'm not sure, either, why you get a kick out of it. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

Lots of people have heard of FARMS who haven't heard of the Maxwell Institute. Tiberius has been insulting FARMS. He hasn't been insulting the Maxwell Institute. So I chose, here, to use the more familiar term for the organization that he is insulting, particularly because it's the term he's actually been using in his insults.

I say honor your new sponsor already.

Much more than happy to do so. Renaming the organization after Elder Maxwell was, after all, my idea. (It had to be approved by the Brethren.)

[rockslider]

Nope. Amateur mind-reading plainly isn't your strong suit.

And I'm not sure, either, why you get a kick out of it. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

Lots of people have heard of FARMS who haven't heard of the Maxwell Institute. Tiberius has been insulting FARMS. He hasn't been insulting the Maxwell Institute. So I chose, here, to use the more familiar term for the organization that he is insulting, particularly because it's the term he's actually been using in his insults.

Much more than happy to do so. Renaming the organization after Elder Maxwell was, after all, my idea. (It had to be approved by the Brethren.)

My comment was not originated from this thread ... I've watched this pattern since I've been here ... I don't think I've seen a single reference from you where "Maxwell institute" has stood on its own ... typically it gets parenthesis notice after FARMS.

[Calm]

My comment was not originated from this thread ... I've watched this pattern since I've been here ... I don't think I've seen a single reference from you where "Maxwell institute" has stood on its own ... typically it gets parenthesis notice after FARMS.

I've not sure I've seen a critic use the actual name "Maxwell Institute" (doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just that it's uncommon) so it would make sense that Dan responds with FARMS with additional clarification just as he has done here.

[cinepro]

Much more than happy to do so. Renaming the organization after Elder Maxwell was, after all, my idea. (It had to be approved by the Brethren.)

You should have named it after Elder McConkie

[rockslider]

I've not sure I've seen a critic use the actual name "Maxwell Institute" (doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just that it's uncommon) so it would make sense that Dan responds with FARMS with additional clarification just as he has done here.

Change in and organization is a hard thing. If the upper levels of an organization do not embrace a change, no one else is going to. If an Editor-In-Chief of a business which changed names, continued to use the old name, he would soon be looking for a new job.

But whatever, just an observation.

[Daniel Peterson]

Change in and organization is a hard thing. If the upper levels of an organization do not embrace a change, no one else is going to. If an Editor-In-Chief of a business which changed names, continued to use the old name, he would soon be looking for a new job.

But whatever, just an observation.

No problem.

When I think that Maxwell Institute has become sufficiently clear and well-known as a designation, I'll stop mentioning FARMS. I see us as being in a transition period, so far as the nomenclature goes.