Jeffrey R. Holland's Talk

[Doc]

Wow, that was certainly a Crowning Moment of Awesome there (check TVTropes for reference). I really enjoyed Elder Holland's talk, and I thought it was spot on.

I often wonder, though, could we possibly get a general authority to speak at the next FAIR conference?

I too loved Elder Holland's talk. I also enjoyed Elder Ted E. Callister's talk and after listening to his talk thought he would be a great speaker at the FAIR conference, but alas I don't see that happening as some would see that as some sort of endorsement of FAIR that would create issues.

Doc

~

[ttribe]

But you will go there to mine content. It's okay. I didn't think you would go over there.

If I had posted said comment here, you would be right to ask me to explain. But as it is, you should go over there if you want to discuss the issue.

Yeah...we'll need to remember you said this the next time you are observed making unsolicited commentary elsewhere about one of us.

[mfbukowski]

was that the "ity" talk?

THAT one must have just been fun fun fun to try and translate!

But Elder Holland's talk was just plain masterful!

I think one of the most powerful evidences of the resurrection is that all the apostles died affirming it, when they could have recanted and no one would have known without mass communications. Who would know that (say) Thomas denied the resurrection to a bunch of Hindus and escaped with his life? How would anyone know? Yet he didn't, and died for his testimony (according to one tradition)

Elder Holland's argument was similar and very true. If you knew the BOM was a fraud, would you read it for solace? Not me!

I have never seen that argument presented before-- has anyone?

[ttribe]

So you are saying he was indignant? Interesting.

The qualifier matters John.

[Deborah]

So you are saying he was indignant? Interesting.

Do you enjoy twisting everything?

[Jeff K.]

Anyone besides me enjoy Brother Burton's speech on Integrity????

I liked it because he focused on intregity, not necessarily the happy ending results. Integrity does need to stand on its own, and need not end with a "happy" ending.

[ttribe]

Do you enjoy twisting everything?

Isn't it obvious?

[mfbukowski]

You made a couple of claims there that I'm interested in seeing if you can defend here, John. One was that if Joseph thought he was going to die he wouldn't have "packed a pistol."

I don't know why critics ever bring this up- it is such a silly argument. We have never been pacifists. If I think someone is coming after me with a gun -- or better yet, a mob with guns, and I had the opportunity to arm myself I would be a fool not to.

[John Larsen]

Yeah...we'll need to remember you said this the next time you are observed making unsolicited commentary elsewhere about one of us.

Who are you?

[ttribe]

Who are you?

You're so clever Johnny...is this you "taking your gloves off"?

[Daniel Peterson]

On Joseph Smith's alleged summoning of the Nauvoo Legion to Carthage Jail, there's some material at

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Martyrdom/Nauvoo_Legion_to_rescue_Joseph

[Matthew J. Tandy]

Two Things:

1) I am very interested in an actual thread where John Larsen attempts to lay out and defend an argument against Elder Holland's talk. One of our members has so kindly transcribed it, so it could be a basis. However, please (to all parties involved), do not turn this thread into one of contention when its purpose is the goodness of the talk.

2) As was brought up, no, I have never heard the argument before wherein it is presented that Hyrum was reading from the Book of Mormon and turned a leaf over, finding inspiration in Ether. I think it is a profound argument. It is not just that they died for the cause. It is that they, or at least Hyrum Smith, believed in the validity of the Book of Mormon such that when faced with death, he read from its pages and found joy and peace. I think it is a powerful argument. Perhaps one could say that Hyrum never really knew it was a fraud by his brother, Oliver Cowdery and Sidney Rigdon, but I find that argument wanting.

[Senator]

I suppose the words were hard on senator....

Not at all. I thoroughly enjoyed and reveled in his fervent declaration and testimony. He's a marvelous testator and communicator.

(Elder Holland, that is)

[robuchan]

2) As was brought up, no, I have never heard the argument before wherein it is presented that Hyrum was reading from the Book of Mormon and turned a leaf over, finding inspiration in Ether. I think it is a profound argument. It is not just that they died for the cause. It is that they, or at least Hyrum Smith, believed in the validity of the Book of Mormon such that when faced with death, he read from its pages and found joy and peace. I think it is a powerful argument. Perhaps one could say that Hyrum never really knew it was a fraud by his brother, Oliver Cowdery and Sidney Rigdon, but I find that argument wanting.

For that point, I don't see that it matters. Regardless whether you believe Moroni was a real person or a character created Joseph or Sidney Rigdon. The words spoken by Moroni in the book of Ether are inspiring, testify of God, and bring comfort to many from Hyrum to myself.

[Jeff K.]

Not at all. I thoroughly enjoyed and reveled in his fervent declaration and testimony. He's a marvelous testator and communicator.

(Elder Holland, that is)

I think in that you and I agree. I have always admired his intellectual acuity combined with his ability to articulate what are sometimes complicated issues in a clear manner.

Of course to me, the absolute best in style is Uchtdorf, of course I have a personal bias regarding a German apostle.

[Pahoran]

But you will go there to mine content. It's okay. I didn't think you would go over there.

If I had posted said comment here, you would be right to ask me to explain. But as it is, you should go over there if you want to discuss the issue.

That's okay, John. We all understand that you're ashamed of what you wrote.

And we don't doubt that that's the way it should be.

Regards,

Pahoran

[juliann]

such persons have been deceived, and if they leave this church, they must do so by crawling over or under or around the BoM to make their exit.

I am sure we will hear howling like we have never heard because of Elder Holland's witness. But as he described the lame theories about the origins of the BOM....pathetic.

Conference actually puts the howlers in a bind. If they go do what they should do...live good lives full of service to others they have to agree with the Mormon church. If they spend their lives trying to destroy others...they have to spend even more time trying to destroy a witness like Elder Holland. And they can't. It seems like it would be a win-win for everyone if they would simply dedicate their lives to doing good. But as was so clear from the words today, there will be those who will refuse.

[Daniel Peterson]

For that point, I don't see that it matters. Regardless whether you believe Moroni was a real person or a character created Joseph or Sidney Rigdon. The words spoken by Moroni in the book of Ether are inspiring, testify of God, and bring comfort to many from Hyrum to myself.

If, ex hypothesi, Hyrum had known that his brother had made the whole thing up, I think it extremely unlikely that he would have gone willingly to his death for the scam or found comfort and consolation in the words of something he knew to be a hoax. And the same is true, in spades, for Joseph himself.

It's this sort of just-so story, advanced so commonly by critics of the Church, that, in my judgment, reveals plainly how weak the critics' case is.

[structurecop]

It's this sort of just-so story, advanced so commonly by critics of the Church, that, in my judgment, reveals plainly how weak the critics' case is.

Those particular critics, at least.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Whenever this board is ready for a fair fight, I will take the gloves off. Meanwhile, I will see you over at the other board for to post a criticism over here and not to answer it over there would seem to some to be an cowardly act--indeed, partaking of the very fruit you accuse me of eating. My reasons are clear, what are yours?

My reason is that other board is a waste of my time. I got tired of all the gossip, opinnuendo, conspiracy theories, and all the other stuff.

But no need to go to the other board. Any responsible, substantive conversation can go on here unabated. Unless you were planning on just throwing out unsubstantiated disagreements and mocking apostles. If that was your plan we would need to go to the other board, but I am not interested in that sort of discussion. For example (and proof) Dan Vogel seems to hold his own around here against the evil oppressive mods. How does he manage, I wonder?

[robuchan]

If, ex hypothesi, Hyrum had known that his brother had made the whole thing up, I think it extremely unlikely that he would have gone willingly to his death for the scam or found comfort and consolation in the words of something he knew to be a hoax. And the same is true, in spades, for Joseph himself.

It's this sort of just-so story, advanced so commonly by critics of the Church, that, in my judgment, reveals plainly how weak the critics' case is.

Pious fraud is a much better term than hoax. It's clear that what Joseph built, he believed in. Does it really matter in the grand scheme that he stretched a few things for the good of the growth of the kingdom? You're really overstating how weak the critics' case is on this.

[LifeOnaPlate]

You made a couple of claims there that I'm interested in seeing if you can defend here, John. One was that if Joseph thought he was going to die he wouldn't have "packed a pistol."

In actuality the pistol was given to him by a concerned friend after Joseph had already been incarcerated. And knowing he was going to die at some point after coming to Carthage does not mean Joseph would know the precise time and manner of his death, nor does it mean he should refuse a means to defend the supportive friends who were with him at the jail.

Second, you said he would not have sent for the Nauvoo Legion if he thought he was going to die. Can you document that he sent for the legion? As I recall the events, the legion, a state-chartered militia, was never in a state of rebellion. Rather, they willingly surrendered their state-issued arms when required to do so by the Illinois governor.

Here's John Larsen, getting the history wrong. Can we accuse various scholarly outlets for hiding the history thus preventing John from knowing the true history? For example, did Joseph pack a pistol, or was one provided to him in the jail by a friend? There's a difference. Sending for the Nauvoo Legion? Is John still relying on Hofmann documents?

[juliann]

Sounded like a hint of desperation in his voice.

That's it? That is all you can squeak out in response?

[LifeOnaPlate]

Come on over to the board where I posted that and I will be happy to discuss it with you.

No need. The discussion can continue here, and so long as it avoids inappropriate content and tone I presume it can continue here with no problem. Especially in this area it will be easy to do so, the historical sources aren't as easy to squirrel around about,and thus far you're getting things wrong.

[ttribe]

Pious fraud is a much better term than hoax. It's clear that what Joseph built, he believed in. Does it really matter in the grand scheme that he stretched a few things for the good of the growth of the kingdom? You're really overstating how weak the critics' case is on this.

Pious fraud is still fraud and it really does matter when evaluating the man's commitment to the Book of Mormon.