Jeffrey R. Holland's Talk

[Lost in Ohio]

Elder Holland's talk was a masterful and powerful apostolic witness. For those who find fault still, I am reminded of Nephi's experience with his brothers in 1 Nephi 15: 6-9:

6 And it came to pass that after I had received strength I spake unto my brethren, desiring to know of them the cause of their disputations.

7 And they said: Behold, we cannot understand the words which our father hath spoken concerning the natural branches of the olive-tree, and also concerning the Gentiles.

8 And I said unto them: Have ye inquired of the Lord?

9 And they said unto me: We have not; for the Lord maketh no such thing known unto us.

10 Behold, I said unto them: How is it that ye do not keep the commandments of the Lord? How is it that ye will perish, because of the hardness of your hearts?

11 Do ye not remember the things which the Lord hath said??If ye will not harden your hearts, and ask me in faith, believing that ye shall receive, with diligence in keeping my commandments, surely these things shall be made known unto you.

And then later after Nephi's explanation his brothers further reply in 1 Nephi 16: 2-3:

2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.

3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might walk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.

[LifeOnaPlate]

But you will go there to mine content. It's okay. I didn't think you would go over there.

If I had posted said comment here, you would be right to ask me to explain. But as it is, you should go over there if you want to discuss the issue.

Your moral high ground has already been ceded in the past when you've been gossiping about folks from here over there.

[robuchan]

Pious fraud is still fraud and it really does matter when evaluating the man's commitment to the Book of Mormon.

Maybe I need to study up more on this, but would there really be no historical precedents of someone protecting a pious fraud at great personal sacrifice?

[ttribe]

Maybe I need to study up more on this, but would there really be no historical precedents of someone protecting a pious fraud at great personal sacrifice?

I'm not aware of any...but I'd be interested in reading whatever you find.

[Pahoran]

Pious fraud is a much better term than hoax.

"Better" in what way? That it's more weaselly? That you imagine it lets you have your cake and eat it too?

What does "pious fraud" actually mean? Is it anything more than "a fraud perpetrated with good intentions?"

Was there ever a fraud whose perpetrators didn't think they were accomplishing something good, at least for themselves?

It's clear that what Joseph built, he believed in. Does it really matter in the grand scheme that he stretched a few things for the good of the growth of the kingdom? You're really overstating how weak the critics' case is on this.

Let's see.

Knowing he and his brother are about to be slaughtered, evidently believing that there is a God who punishes sinners, and having himself dictated the words "Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell," Joseph in his hour of distress finds spiritual comfort in that same volume. And the "critics" want to persuade us that he did so knowing it to be fraudulent?

How is it possible to overstate the weakness of something that doesn't actually exist?

Regards,

Pahoran

[juliann]

For that point, I don't see that it matters. Regardless whether you believe Moroni was a real person or a character created Joseph or Sidney Rigdon. The words spoken by Moroni in the book of Ether are inspiring, testify of God, and bring comfort to many from Hyrum to myself.

So they "comforted" themselves with the very fraud that they were imprisoned for upholding? Ridiculous. Beyond ridiculous. Susan Easton Black told me that they knew the mob was coming when the mob started singing. That is why Joseph asked for the hymn to be sung. And all they had to do was renounce the fraud and go home to their families who they knew would be left destitute and open to attack. But why do that when they had such a good thing going and it was such a great comfort?

[mfbukowski]

If, ex hypothesi, Hyrum had known that his brother had made the whole thing up, I think it extremely unlikely that he would have gone willingly to his death for the scam or found comfort and consolation in the words of something he knew to be a hoax. And the same is true, in spades, for Joseph himself.

It's this sort of just-so story, advanced so commonly by critics of the Church, that, in my judgment, reveals plainly how weak the critics' case is.

I think this points out how creative and strong Elder Holland is as an apologist. It's a good argument, imo, and I haven't heard it before in this context.

[LifeOnaPlate]

mfbuko- it is the first time I had heard it in the context Elder Holland gave it in, and I found it remarkably powerful as well. And the added point that JS testified of the BoM to the guards and so forth added to it. What a stirring way to await death, and to testify that the book is what he said it was.

[Daniel Peterson]

Pious fraud is a much better term than hoax.

I will readily agree with you that "pious fraud" is the critics' best hope, far and away. But it's a pretty wan hope. I believe that "desperation" was mentioned earlier on this thread. The word comes readily to mind in this context.

You're really overstating how weak the critics' case is on this.

I disagree. It really is that weak.

[noel00]

Now you have me intrigued. I have not listened to Holland as yet. Is he aware of the Jocker's (Stanford) study on Spalding? I watched Monson talk about some interesting things about anger. I remember something I read about anger where is said is often caused either by fear or frustration. Thats why I do not watch FOX(Faux) news (frustration), especially Glen Beck ("We surround them"). That's one of the blessings of having children and grandchildren, they teach you patience and selfcontrol.

[Reklaw]

Between the powerful Spirit that accompanies Elder Holland's testimony, the interesting context of his argument, and William McLellin's recently discovered notebook makes this a good year for historical Book of Mormon evidence.

[juliann]

Now you have me intrigued. I have not listened to Holland as yet. Is he aware of the Jocker's (Stanford) study on Spalding? I watched Monson talk about some interesting things about anger. I remember something I read about anger where is said is often caused either by fear or frustration. Thats why I do not watch FOX(Faux) news (frustration), especially Glen Beck ("We surround them").

You must really be uncomfortable around your angry exmo pals. How do you manage the cogdis?

[Reklaw]

Thats why I do not watch FOX(Faux) news (frustration), especially Glen Beck ("We surround them"). That's one of the blessings of having children and grandchildren, they teach you patience and selfcontrol.

I don't think anyone cares what news channel you watch or don't watch. Completely off topic.

[Daniel Peterson]

Is he aware of the Jocker's (Stanford) study on Spalding?

I have no idea. But here's a friendly piece of advice: Don't lean too hard on that particular weak reed.

[robuchan]

I will readily agree with you that "pious fraud" is the critics' best hope, far and away. But it's a pretty wan hope. I believe that "desperation" was mentioned earlier on this thread. The word comes readily to mind in this context.

I disagree. It really is that weak.

It's so odd you're being so aggressive about this point. You really are asserting that Joseph and Hyrum dying for their testimony proves the BOM is a true historical record so strongly that the best possible critical argument against is weak and desperate?

[mfbukowski]

mfbuko- it is the first time I had heard it in the context Elder Holland gave it in, and I found it remarkably powerful as well. And the added point that JS testified of the BoM to the guards and so forth added to it. What a stirring way to await death, and to testify that the book is what he said it was.

I totally agree. It really is sealing his testimony with his life.

And the argument I think also has implications for all of Joseph's "translations" - even the Book of Abraham.

[lostindc]

Whenever this board is ready for a fair fight, I will take the gloves off. Meanwhile, I will see you over at the other board for to post a criticism over here and not to answer it over there would seem to some to be an cowardly act--indeed, partaking of the very fruit you accuse me of eating. My reasons are clear, what are yours?

John,

I had no idea you were an internet tough guy, maybe we can hang out at the next FAIR conference...

[robuchan]

It's so odd you're being so aggressive about this point. You really are asserting that Joseph and Hyrum dying for their testimony proves the BOM is a true historical record so strongly that the best possible critical argument against is weak and desperate?

PS, Dan. Where does this particular view of yours put you on the fundamentalist/intellectual scale we discussed a while back in another thread?

[juliann]

It's so odd you're being so aggressive about this point. You really are asserting that Joseph and Hyrum dying for their testimony proves the BOM is a true historical record so strongly that the best possible critical argument against is weak and desperate?

Here is the real pious fraud. You couldn't possibly believe this poorly constructed strawman yet perpetrate it for the better good. The real question is....would you die for the privilege of being able to say it?

[mfbukowski]

Between the powerful Spirit that accompanies Elder Holland's testimony, the interesting context of his argument, and William McLellin's recently discovered notebook makes this a good year for historical Book of Mormon evidence.

Hey - what about Skousen?

[ttribe]

It's so odd you're being so aggressive about this point. You really are asserting that Joseph and Hyrum dying for their testimony proves the BOM is a true historical record so strongly that the best possible critical argument against is weak and desperate?

First...I don't see any aggressiveness on DCP's part. Second...no one has said it "proves" anything. But, it is strong EVIDENCE in favor of the idea that these men weren't lying.

[juliann]

PS, Dan. Where does this particular view of yours put you on the fundamentalist/intellectual scale we discussed a while back in another thread?

This is the step in your pious fraud where everyone is supposed to assume you have proved something.

CFR where anyone has ever said that the BOM could even be "proved" by anything or anyone but the Holy Spirit?

[robuchan]

Here is the real pious fraud. You couldn't possibly believe this poorly constructed strawman yet perpetrate it for the better good. The real question is....would you die for the privilege of being able to say it?

Where's the straw man?

[Reklaw]

Hey - what about Skousen?

How foolish of me. Yes, of course!

[robuchan]

This is the step in your pious fraud where everyone is supposed to assume you have proved something.

CFR where anyone has ever said that the BOM could even be "proved" by anything or anyone but the Holy Spirit?

I didn't say DP said that. I said DP is saying it proves "so strongly that the best possible critical argument against is weak and desperate". i.e. the act of dying for their testimony in and of itself is proof sufficient to deem the best critical arguments as weak and desperate. DCP if you didn't say this, please speak up.