Jeffrey R. Holland's Talk

[juliann]

I didn't say DP said that. I said DP is saying it proves "so strongly that the best possible critical argument against is weak and desperate". i.e. the act of dying for their testimony in and of itself is proof sufficient to deem the best critical arguments as weak and desperate. DCP if you didn't say this, please speak up.

Wise choice to change what you actually said.....

You really are asserting that Joseph and Hyrum dying for their testimony proves the BOM is a true historical record

[robuchan]

Wise choice to change what you actually said.....

Why are you intentionally misrepresenting what I said? I didn't change anything. You quoted half my sentence, leaving off the qualifier that was there from the beginning.

[juliann]

Why are you intentionally misrepresenting what I said? I didn't change anything. You quoted half my sentence, leaving off the qualifier that was there from the beginning.

OK, here is the rest of it, including your insult. You are the one who only quoted half your sentence so that proving the BOM a "true historical record" is missing.

It's so odd you're being so aggressive about this point. You really are asserting that Joseph and Hyrum dying for their testimony proves the BOM is a true historical record so strongly that the best possible critical argument against is weak and desperate?

Your revised version of the proof claim:

I said DP is saying it proves "so strongly that the best possible critical argument against is weak and desperate". i.e. the act of dying for their testimony in and of itself is proof sufficient to deem the best critical arguments as weak and desperate.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Now you have me intrigued. I have not listened to Holland as yet. Is he aware of the Jocker's (Stanford) study on Spalding? I watched Monson talk about some interesting things about anger. I remember something I read about anger where is said is often caused either by fear or frustration. Thats why I do not watch FOX(Faux) news (frustration), especially Glen Beck ("We surround them"). That's one of the blessings of having children and grandchildren, they teach you patience and selfcontrol.

I didn't think Elder Holland was angry. He was decisive and firm and unwavering and forceful.

Is he aware of "Jockers" study? I am not sure. But I am sure the study is severely flawed. One such severe flaw is that it assigns only relative likelihood of authorship. Thus, we could have plugged in any group of names and come up with similar statistics, even if using Chris Heimmerdinger, Dan Brown, and myself. But we would know that Chris, Dan and I didn't write the Book of Mormon, despite whatever likelihood the stats show. And that isn't the only problem with the study. http://www.lifeongoldplates.com/2008/12/new-book-of-mormon-wordprint-analysis.html

Word on the street is that a response is forthcoming from people who really have a solid grasp of the issues, and will show decisively that the Jockers study is fatally flawed.

[LifeOnaPlate]

John,

I had no idea you were an internet tough guy, maybe we can hang out at the next FAIR conference...

I'm thinking of challenging John to a dance-off. Flagpole at high noon tomorrow.

[Bill Vincent]

He sounded angry for some reason. My favorite talk so far was Monson's. Very calm, heart-warming and to the point.

I never got the impression that he was angry at all. Never even occurred to me that anyone could think that until I read this. We watched his talk in our living room 3 times. He seemed absolutely resolute and firm. Definitely not angry.

And yeah, my son and I have discussed Pres. Monson's talk about anger from last night. My son is 15. I've already apologized once to him since last night's talk!

[lostindc]

I'm thinking of challenging John to a dance-off. Flagpole at high noon tomorrow.

I would be careful he might come to the dance-off without his gloves. You do not want to stare in the eyes of a John Larsen with his gloves taken off...

[LifeOnaPlate]

OK, here is the rest of it, including your insult. You are the one who only quoted half your sentence so that proving the BOM a "true historical record" is missing.

Your revised version of the proof claim:

I've been through similar conversations with robuchan. Inone, he asserted that Oliver Cowdery used Aaron's rod to attempt translating the BoM. He said this is clear from the Book of Commandments. I said it isn't clear from the Book of Commandments and asked for the reference. He didn't provide it and for some reason thought I was being an unreasonable bully for having the gall to ask for an actual source that substantiated his claim. (I admit I could have just supplied the words to which he was referring, thus demonstrating they didn't make the claim he said they made, but that would have taken more time and he needs to do a little digging on his own, imo).

[juliann]

I didn't think Elder Holland was angry. He was decisive and firm and unwavering and forceful.

Is he aware of "Jockers" study? I am not sure. But I am sure the study is severely flawed. One such severe flaw is that it assigns only relative likelihood of authorship. Thus, we could have plugged in any group of names and come up with similar statistics, even if using Chris Heimmerdinger, Dan Brown, and myself.

Nevertheless, the next time I have a gun in my face and a mob at my door I will be reading your tome for comfort.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I never got the impression that he was angry at all. Never even occurred to me that anyone could think that until I read this. We watched his talk in our living room 3 times. He seemed absolutely resolute and firm. Definitely not angry.

And yeah, my son and I have discussed Pres. Monson's talk about anger from last night. My son is 15. I've already apologized once to him since last night's talk!

Welcome to the board, Bill Vincent!

[noel00]

I did not suggest Holland was angry. I said Monson gave an interesting talk about anger. I look forward to the LDS response and I am sure Jocker will make his opinions known of that response - all great fun. I find that theory more plausible then someone translating gold plates by looking into a stone in a hat.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Nevertheless, the next time I have a gun in my face and a mob at my door I will be reading your tome for comfort.

haha

[robuchan]

OK, here is the rest of it, including your insult. You are the one who only quoted half your sentence so that proving the BOM a "true historical record" is missing.

Your revised version of the proof claim:

I left out the "true historical record" in the second post just for brevity and clarity. I was restating. I wasn't revising or backpedaling. Also, what did you think was an insult? That I said DP was being aggressive? I mean that like I use it in business in terms of meaning the opposite of conservative. Something like bold or risky or sticking your neck out.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I did not suggest Holland was angry. I said Monson gave an interesting talk about anger.

Thanks for the clarification. I liked Pres. Monson's talk on anger. An interesting topic to choose.

I look forward to the LDS response and I am sure Jocker will make his opinions known of that response - all great fun. I find that theory more plausible then someone translating gold plates by looking into a stone in a hat.

It won't be "the LDS response," it will be the "insert name of author(s) here" response. That way we can make sure people don't just assume there are axes to be grinded and so forth, or hide behind the name of an unfortunate researcher who didn't know what Criddle was getting him into and the shaky historical foundations upon which the study was constructed.

[juliann]

I never got the impression that he was angry at all. Never even occurred to me that anyone could think that until I read this. We watched his talk in our living room 3 times. He seemed absolutely resolute and firm. Definitely not angry.

And yeah, my son and I have discussed Pres. Monson's talk about anger from last night. My son is 15. I've already apologized once to him since last night's talk!

I would have no problem using the word "anger". What I find interesting is how quickly the antis are running to that as a means of ignoring what he said. Since when did anger become a dirty word? It is a human emotion like happiness and sadness. What becomes downright comical...and exceptionally lame....is their attempt to turn Pres. Monson against Elder Holland as another diversion. That is too stupid for words.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I would be careful he might come to the dance-off without his gloves. You do not want to stare in the eyes of a John Larsen with his gloves taken off...

Eye-gloves.

[notHagoth7]

...

[juliann]

I left out the "true historical record" in the second post just for brevity and clarity. I was restating. I wasn't revising or backpedaling. Also, what did you think was an insult? That I said DP was being aggressive? I mean that like I use it in business in terms of meaning the opposite of conservative. Something like bold or risky or sticking your neck out.

Wow, you are good.

[Mortal Man]

They are the two leading alternative candidates for authorship of the Book of Mormon, and anti-Mormons have been pushing them for many years.

And we all know that the dread pirate B.H. Roberts was the most vicious of all anti-Mormons.

[ttribe]

And we all know that the dread pirate B.H. Roberts was the most vicious of all anti-Mormons.

CFR that B.H. Roberts provided an alternative candidate of authorship.

Perhaps you should read up: FAIR Link

[robuchan]

CFR that B.H. Roberts provided an alternative candidate of authorship.

He had a lot to say about Ethan Smith.

[ttribe]

He had a lot to say about Ethan Smith.

Such as?

And, can you refute the FAIR link I provided?

[lostindc]

He had a lot to say about Ethan Smith.

Like what? Please share

[mfbukowski]

Eye-gloves.

The German word for "gloves" translated literally is "hand-shoes".

I think the "expanded" version of eye-gloves would be "shades".

[Mortal Man]

Elder Holland did not say that it did. He said that if Joseph Smith had faked the Book of Mormon, it would be a very strange thing for him to find consolation in it during his last hours on earth.

The fact is simply that Hyrum read to Joseph from the BoM. Whether Joseph found consolation in the reading is anyone's guess.

To presume to know the thoughts of Joseph Smith is silly. It's like assuming that a professor of Islamic studies can read the mind of a deranged kidnapper.