A Protestant's perspective on why we won't find common ground with LDS

[Brad]

Well, it's been about a month since I've last consistently posted on the board - I've been in Utah without a computer. Just got back to Texas this past Friday.

Anyways, during my time in Utah, I got the chance to have a two hour conversation with Steven Page, the Director of the Institute of Religion at Weber State University (and a devout LDS). We had a really good talk, and discussed many of the differences between LDS and Protestants, and he really emphasized how LDS are trying to find common ground with Protestants. This really made me think, and it caused me to come up with why I, as a protestant, can not find common ground with the LDS...and I would like to add that I am saying this in a respectful, loving way. I am not attacking any of you, or being what you call "Anti-mormon"...I am only merely wanting to give you a Protestant's point of view on the issue, and I only ask that you read it objectively and try to put yourself in a Protestant's shoes. I know you disagree with me already, I only want you to see my perspective on the topic.

Point blank, we do not believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet, just because of all the evidence and suspicions that stack up against him. And when I pray to God with a sincere heart, I am not given that "feeling of truth/burning in the bosom" that you talk about, but I am left with a horrible feeling that I have just read the words of a false prophet. No offense, but if I did think he was a true prophet, there would be no reason for me to not be LDS myself. Given this, if he is not a true prophet, he falls under the category of a false prophet. And what is the offense of a false prophet given in the Bible? Well, look at Galatians 1:6-8: "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

and also in Ezekiel 13:1-9: "1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD;

3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!

4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.

5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.

6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.

7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?

8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD.

9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD."

So, looking at this, let's just say (hypothetically for you LDS out there), that Joseph Smith indeed IS a false prophet. Just for the sake of putting yourself in a protestant's position. After reading these verses, do you think God would be happy with us for not rebuking a false prophet when we see one? We have to, out of sheer conscience. That is why we feel the need to witness to LDS, not because we hate you all, but because we love you, and just want to see you in heaven with us and the Heavenly Father one day.

Thanks for reading, I hope my words don't offend, but only merely give you all another perspective.

-Brad

[cjwright]

Point blank, we do not believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet, just because of all the evidence and suspicions that stack up against him.

Evidence and suspicions? Any evidence or suspicions that haven't already been refuted on this board?

And when I pray to God with a sincere heart, I am not given that "feeling of truth/burning in the bosom" that you talk about, but I am left with a horrible feeling that I have just read the words of a false prophet. No offense, but if I did think he was a true prophet, there would be no reason for me to not be LDS myself.

You've already said that you don't believe JS is a prophet, so how can you pray with a sincere heart when you have already dismissed as false the things you are praying about?

Given this, if he is not a true prophet, he falls under the category of a false prophet. And what is the offense of a false prophet given in the Bible? Well, look at Galatians 1:6-8: "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

The "preaching another gospel" arguement. The Gospel as taught by Christ and preached by the Apostles in the NT is faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. That is the same Gospel taught by JS, and is taught in the LDS Church today. Maybe you need to clarify what 'other gospel' JS taught, and that you also preach the same gospel of Christ and the Apostles?

So, looking at this, let's just say (hypothetically for you LDS out there), that Joseph Smith indeed IS a false prophet. Just for the sake of putting yourself in a protestant's position. After reading these verses, do you think God would be happy with us for not rebuking a false prophet when we see one? We have to, out of sheer conscience. That is why we feel the need to witness to LDS, not because we hate you all, but because we love you, and just want to see you in heaven with us and the Heavenly Father one day.

You witness to us under the assumption that we haven't questioned the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon or that Joseph Smith was a prophet. We have, we've just come up with a different answer than you. And it seems to me, at least, that all this witnessing by non-LDS is to convince themselves they are right not that we are wrong.

[Freedom]

So, looking at this, let's just say (hypothetically for you LDS out there), that Joseph Smith indeed IS a false prophet. Just for the sake of putting yourself in a protestant's position. After reading these verses, do you think God would be happy with us for not rebuking a false prophet when we see one? We have to, out of sheer conscience. That is why we feel the need to witness to LDS, not because we hate you all, but because we love you, and just want to see you in heaven with us and the Heavenly Father one day.

Thanks for reading, I hope my words don't offend, but only merely give you all another perspective.

-Brad

Oh how condescending of you. Well, we believe that you do not even believe in the bible. Rather, you worship the bible and base your doctrines on the non biblical creeds. Your scholarship is wanting and your love is in serious doubt. Is that a sufficiently condescending response? Just trying to find common ground with your rudeness.

Of course, your concern demonstrates your doctrinal paradox of salvation by grace. If all we have to do is believe in Jesus and be saved, then there is no doctrinal requirement to fulfill. Or are you suggesting that in addition to believing in Jesus, we also have to study the bible first and embrace the heretical creeds before we can be eligible for grace? Can you please find a reference in the scriptures for such a doctrine?

[selek]

First and foremost, Brad, the rules here are very specific- you are neither allowed to proselyte here, nor allowed to 'cry repentance' to them 'heathen Mormons'. Your post was heavy on emotion and light on facts. You claim Joseph was a false prophet based on the rumors and accusations that swirl around him- yet blatantly ignore the rumors and accusations which swirled around the Biblical prophets or the Savior himself. There isn't a single charge laid against Joseph that wasn't made against the Biblical prophets. You're holding Joseph to a far different, and far stricter standard than to which you subject your own holy men. That's a blatant double standard and rank hypocrisy. Those are not the hallmarks of objective analysis, nor of a heart open to either the word or will of the Lord. You seek to condemn Joseph (and us) by crying repentance for a sin you have not proven- which is precisely what the Pharisees did to Christ. They, too, quoted scripture to drive home the seriousness of the charges, and they, too accused and condemned an innocent man. Your title was more honest and accurate- you said "won't find common ground." "Can't"implies an inability; Won't" implies an act of will. Your condemnation of Joseph- and by extension all Mormons- is an act of will. And as a former Southern Baptist who has worshipped alongside Nazarene's, Methodists, Presbyterians, and at least a half-dozen others, I question your authority to give us the 'protestant' view.

[Sargon]

I thought Brad's post was sincere and well-intentioned. I don't blame your careful approach to this board Brad, due to the inevitable knee-jerk reactions that non-LDS challengers too often get even when being polite and sincere.

[volgadon]

Actually, we've read Brad's posts before. He states what he thinks is our position then refuses to listen. He ignored every single post I've made to him and he he goes on about how wrong and deluded we are to show that he is hot stuff, preparing for the ministry or whatever. Cjwright, Freedom and Selek have summed his position up well.

[Sargon]

Actually, we've read Brad's posts before. He states what he thinks is our position then refuses to listen. He ignored every single post I've made to him and he he goes on about how wrong and deluded we are to show that he is hot stuff, preparing for the ministry or whatever. Cjwright, Freedom and Selek have summed his position up well.

Alright. If you have past experiences with him that I don't have, then I defer to your opinion.

[Deborah]

One must distinguish between a false prophet and a true prophet.

Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God. He proved it in the things he taught and in the prophecies he announced. Just because you are ignorant of those things doesn't mean they aren't so. Like many prophets of old, including the Savior, he suffered false accusations and persecutions and finally gave his life for what he believed.

[selek]

Brad, the most basic problem with your premise is that we worship Jesus, not Joseph. Joseph was the first prophet of the Restoration, but he is not our shepherd. You are entitled to your opinion, but no matter how often you cite scripture to bolster that opinion, it will never be convincing- let alone binding- upon those of us who have heard the Shepherd's voice. We know Christ, we worship Christ, and we try to follow him in word and in deed. Most of us have heard his voice and felt the Holy Spirit. We know in whom our hearts will find rest- what need have we of you? Having seen the pillar of fire and the column of smoke, what need have we of another 'Moses'? Why would we trade manna from heaven for the stale crusts you offer?

[Robspectre]

Thanks for your post. Very smooth and not an attack. I see your point but imagine that you are LDS first, then someone comes and preaches (fill in the blank) doctrine to you. Wouldn't you use those very same verses to "prove" your point?

I think it would do you good to read alot of post here and see things from our perspective. I myself am LDS but I do not post alot here, although I am here reading often. You will be suprised what you can learn here. Good luck.

[Garden Girl]

Anyways, during my time in Utah, I got the chance to have a two hour conversation with Steven Page, the Director of the Institute of Religion at Weber State University (and a devout LDS). We had a really good talk, and discussed many of the differences between LDS and Christians, and he really emphasized how LDS are trying to find common ground with Christians.

-Brad

Hello Brad...

I did read your whole post... and yes, I too found it to smack of condescension... But, you really lost me right at the beginning the minute you haul out the old LDS vs Christians... I dare not go further or I might be guilty of rudeness and sarcasim...

Garden Girl

[CV75]

Just for the sake of putting yourself in a protestant's position. After reading these verses, do you think God would be happy with us for not rebuking a false prophet when we see one? We have to, out of sheer conscience. That is why we feel the need to witness to LDS, not because we hate you all, but because we love you, and just want to see you in heaven with us and the Heavenly Father one day.

If I were a protestant, I would feel that to witness is my privilege, and I would be motivated to do so out of my gratitude for Christ. I would not presume to have the same intelligence or calling as Ezekiel, or have the Lord's backing in rebuking a false prophet (however rightly or wrongly I identified him) unless he was imposing his doctrine on me or on those I rightly protect (children, family, friends, etc.). I would lean toward the principles of the Golden Rule and removing the beam from my own eye. I would not listen to prophets whose message does not ring true, but wouldn't get worked up about it. I would not single out prophets to pick apart, focus on one to entrap him or his followers in contentious discussion, manufacture or regurgitate reason upon reason not to believe him, or actively proselytize / campaign against him to the world. I would focus on sharing the positive aspects and fruits of my faith and adopting any additional truth I can possibly recognize.

[blueadept]

Actually, we've read Brad's posts before. He states what he thinks is our position then refuses to listen. He ignored every single post I've made to him and he he goes on about how wrong and deluded we are to show that he is hot stuff, preparing for the ministry or whatever. Cjwright, Freedom and Selek have summed his position up well.

Since I don't know Brad's tendencies, I'll defer to your opinion as well. My thought was that he meant well though. It's one of the difficult parts of talking with LDS about their faith in understanding that you all believe you have a testimony of the LDS church, Joseph Smith, and Christ in your lives. Other Christians also have a testimony but without JS and the BoM. Oh well.

My best analysis is how both sides can read something like RSR and come to perfectly opposite conclusions about Joseph Smith. Both sides will agree to disagree with JS and the BoM. Now we all need to work on ecumenism in values as Christians we do share and show in our daily lives and not dwell on our differences as much.

[Ceeboo]

Good morning Brad,

I am not sure how old you are or how long you have been " sharing " your perspectives with other Faiths but I would like to offer a few things for your consideration ( If I may ).

( I am not LDS for what that may or not may be worth in weighing the following )

You might want to consider that many devout LDS here have heard, read, and indeed studied the very same Scripture verses you quote. ( They simply, in large measure, have different conclusions than you ).

It is also worth mentioning ( to create an enviornment where we all, of different faiths, can share our thoughts with eachother ) that your " opinion " of Joseph Smith adds very little to the boards and is obvious as you are not LDS. I think it very important, however, to consider that others here have a very different " opinion " of Joseph Smith and this alone should demand atleast a " fair " level of respect when posting to/with them.

Lastly, I noticed that you offer " why we WON'T find common ground with LDS ". I can assure you, from years of sharing on these religious forums, that if you START there, you will indeed STOP there. A coplete loss of opportunity for ALL of us to gain perspective from eachother. ( Please notice: perspective FROM eachother being the key, IMHO ).

BTW, I ( Catholic ) CHOOSE to see the common ground I have with LDS folk as well as you ( my seperated brother ) as it most certainly leads to " good will " and understanding amongst all of us who claim " we are right ".

Anyway, I hope I did not come across as harsh, I simply wanted to lend my own bias thoughts for your consideration.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[selek]

... I dare not go further or I might be guilty of rudeness and sarcasim...

Garden Girl

Okay, THAT I gotta see. It's about as believable as a papaya tree in Seattle or Big Foot in a business suit.

[volgadon]

Ecumenism is all well and fine, but true tolerance says that DESPITE the differences we can find common ground, love and respect.

[Garden Girl]

For selek...

GG

[Wants2know]

Hello Brad...

I did read your whole post... and yes, I too found it to smack of condescension... But, you really lost me right at the beginning the minute you haul out the old LDS vs Christians... I dare not go further or I might be guilty of rudeness and sarcasim...

Garden Girl

I don't understand the argument that LDS aren't "Christian" AT ALL! Even I, a non-lds, got ruffled at that mention in the post. As far as I understand and believe, a "Christian" is someone who follows the teachings of Jesus Christ. Certainly, LDS members follow Christ's teachings. As a Protestant, I certainly don't think this post is "universal" to Protestants.

By the way GG - Thanks so much for the package you sent me You rock! It's a rainy day... so I'll be sure to take a look today.

[Wants2know]

Ecumenism is all well and fine, but true tolerance says that DESPITE the differences we can find common ground, love and respect.

In my mind, sharing a love for Jesus should be enough common ground. There will always be varied interpretations of scripture that people will disagree on.

[volgadon]

Why then is it so difficult for protestants, especially evangelicals, to recognise us as such?

[Flyonthewall]

Point blank, we do not believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet, just because of all the evidence and suspicions that stack up against him. And when I pray to God with a sincere heart, I am not given that "feeling of truth/burning in the bosom" that you talk about, but I am left with a horrible feeling that I have just read the words of a false prophet. No offense, but if I did think he was a true prophet, there would be no reason for me to not be LDS myself. Given this, if he is not a true prophet, he falls under the category of a false prophet.

This is the big issue, the reason you can find no common ground? Are you really stating that the only way to find common ground with a faith, is if you are a member of that faith? Afterall, if you thought Joseph Smith were a true prophet you would be LDS.

I can find common ground with just about any other faith, christian or not, but then I am open to finding common ground. The only reason why you cannot find common ground is you are not willing to find it.

I would bring up that we both believe in Christ as our Savior, but then that has been dismissed as common ground by groups claiming that it is a different Jesus Christ.

We also believe the bible to be scripture. But there again, because we don't come to the same conclusions when reading it, it is claimed that we believe the bible to be full of errors, and therefore, don't believe it.

Brad, are you one that will turn a blind eye to everything we have in common? Finding common ground does not mean you have to convert ya know.

[blueadept]

Why then is it so difficult for protestants, especially evangelicals, to recognise us as such?

As a Catholic married to a TBM and that I mention that she's Mormon especially to EV's, I normally spend the next 20 minutes correcting misconceptions to them about the LDS faith.

As a non-member, it's hard to look at the good aspects of the LDS faith when you have to correct blatant misinformation about your faith.

My 2 cents

[blueadept]

Brad, are you one that will turn a blind eye to everything we have in common? Finding common ground does not mean you have to convert ya know.

IMO when an outsider looks at the LDS faith, the most obvious thing that others see is your missionary work to find converts. So most non-members would tend to disagree with you unfortunately.

[Lightbearer]

Hello Brad,

Since you have given "A Protestant's perspective on why (you) won't find common ground with LDS." Let me answer some of your objections if I may, and also point out that common ground is a mythical ideal, I suppose it is more of a hope of a common understanding, while disagreeing still a hope for some sort of peaceful co-existence.

Point blank, we do not believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet, just because of all the evidence and suspicions that stack up against him. And when I pray to God with a sincere heart, I am not given that "feeling of truth/burning in the bosom" that you talk about, but I am left with a horrible feeling that I have just read the words of a false prophet. No offense, but if I did think he was a true prophet, there would be no reason for me to not be LDS myself.

This much is obvious, if all the traditional Christians agreed that Joseph Smith was a Prophet, then yes they would be lining up at the baptismal fonts. The only problem with your objection is that it is based on your word only. Now I understand that their are many spirits in the world that influence men, basically they must come from one of two sources, either from God or Lucifer, there is also a possible third which is the "commandments of men." I and many others can testify that we know Joseph Smith is a true Prophet of God and a witness of Jesus Christ. The only "horrible feeling" I have is when someone attacks the Church and tries to denigrate the Prophets of the Lord. When I read the words of Joseph Smith as revealed through the D&C and also the translations of the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price... I see the words of a prophet, seer, and revelator. I see the words of Jesus Christ as given through His humble servants. Every man or woman must judge for themselves what they think of this work.

Given this, if he is not a true prophet, he falls under the category of a false prophet. And what is the offense of a false prophet given in the Bible? Well, look at Galatians 1:6-8: "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

No truer words were ever spoken, if we do not follow the Lord Jesus Christ's Gospel then we are accursed... I also add if we reject that Gospel (whomever preaches it) will likewise be accursed. Paul also said this:

(Galatians 1:10-12) "For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."

Where did Paul get his Gospel? The revelation of Jesus Christ! How did that revelation come? Through a reading and interpreting of the Bible? On the road to Damascus Paul had a revelation, just as Joseph Smith did in the sacred grove. Paul was given the message he needed, that even though he believed God had given him license to persecute the Church and destroy the members... yet he discovered that he was mistaken. Just as Joseph Smith discovered that none of the Churches were His Church. I am sure Paul may have quoted Ezekiel 13:1-9 as a justification of persecuting this Jesus that these fishermen and tax collectors preached! He may have seen Peter and John as false prophets who spoke against Moses and the law, and Stephen! That man was a blasphemer and when he claimed to see this Jesus (known as the prince of devils to the Chief priests of the Jews) standing on the right hand of God! That was too much, he was worthy of death...

So, looking at this, let's just say (hypothetically for you LDS out there), that Joseph Smith indeed IS a false prophet. Just for the sake of putting yourself in a protestant's position. After reading these verses, do you think God would be happy with us for not rebuking a false prophet when we see one? We have to, out of sheer conscience. That is why we feel the need to witness to LDS, not because we hate you all, but because we love you, and just want to see you in heaven with us and the Heavenly Father one day.

I am sure Paul felt the same way, he did not want the Christians that he persecuted to be damned so he tried to stamp out this "cult" that had sprung up and denied the Law and the prophets:

(Acts 28:22) "But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against."

Hypothetically consider that Joseph was a true prophet, what then? Perhaps it may be wise to take the advice of Gamaliel:

(Acts 5:34-39) "Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space; And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men. For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought. After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed. And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."

He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

[bluebell]

I'm confused at how someone who claims to believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God and Redeemer of the world, and that it is only through His Atonement that we can become joint-heirs with Christ for eternity with God, can claim that he can't find common ground with a group of people who also believe that but that he must do everything in he can to separate himself from such a group in every way?

Mark 9: 38-41

"38