volgadon Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 I would tell you that I believe Joseph Smith was a false prophet. Does that mean then that your religion is evil and Satanic?And I would tell you that Luther changed scripture in order to fit his personal dogma, which dogma you follow slavishly.
Brad Posted July 21, 2009 Author Posted July 21, 2009 Why is it that you are not able to think outside of your own perspective. You are much more rigidly bound by your own creeds than most LDS I have met. Most Lds I know are able to take new concepts and research and evaluate them where as those like you who have a narrow and curcumscribed view do not seem able to do anything but reject and attack others out of hand.I believe what I believe to the be the absolute truth. I'm able to put myself in your shoes and understand your way of thinking, but ultimately it would be wrong to accept anything contrary to what I believe to be the truth. LDS policy is the same I believe.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Now, the Protestant perspective. Your mormon friend follows the teachings of a false prophet. You believe that they have a different gospel than the one that Paul talks about in Galatians 1:6-8. You would do everything you could to try and convert them to Protestantism. Although yes, they have a lot of similar teachings from the Bible, ultimately the Gospel is different. You would be very afraid for them.Tell me Brad, just what is your view. Tell me what must I do to be saved?? I take it you think that Mormons are not saved as the follow a "different Jesus". What must I do? The table is yours.
Brad Posted July 21, 2009 Author Posted July 21, 2009 And I would tell you that Luther changed scripture in order to fit his personal dogma, which dogma you follow slavishly.That's the beauty of perspectives and differing points of view. Is that supposed to make me mad? It doesn't...I know you believe differently than I do. I wish a lot of the people on this thread could do the same.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Brigham Young said it himself, anyone who rejects Joseph Smith and his teachings is damned. Not because you worship him, but because you believe his teachings are absolutely necessary for salvation.I would like to see this quote. I think you are missing something here, as we believe that Christ had given JS these teachings, so you see they are not JS teachings. Do you believe that if some one rejects Pauls teachings they will be damned? Meaning that if some one doesn't confess Jesus and accept him into thier heart that they will be saved? Can one reject Paul or Matthew, Peter but not Christ?
blueadept Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 This is why I don't like common ground. It is nothing more than political correctness, and it encourages both sides to stay where they are. One of us is right....and one of us is in big trouble. That should concern BOTH of us!I'm glad my TBM wife and I do not share your thoughts on this. 1 Cor 7:13-1613 And the woman which hath a husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. 14 For the unbelieving ahusband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is csanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. 15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. 16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?My wife and I may disagree on who is saving who, but we are both willing to leave it in God's hands.
ERayR Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 One of us is right....and one of us is in big trouble. That should concern BOTH of us!This illustrates, perfectly the narrowness of your mindset.
Daniel Peterson Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Of the missionaries that I've come across that were once Catholic, I haven't been very impressed with their working knowledge of their previous faith.Would you say that the knowledge of the Catholic faith typically held by current Catholics is impressive?I don't like common ground. It is nothing more than political correctness,Nonsense. It's elementary logic.Have you ever seen a Venn diagram?If we had absolutely no common ground, there would be no basis for a discussion between us. and it encourages both sides to stay where they are.I don't see how it does that.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 That's the beauty of perspectives and differing points of view. Is that supposed to make me mad? It doesn't...I know you believe differently than I do. I wish a lot of the people on this thread could do the same.Huh? You said, "I wish a lot of the people on this thread could do the same".Do the same? you mean have a different belief than you. I think they do.
Brad Posted July 21, 2009 Author Posted July 21, 2009 Tell me Brad, just what is your view. Tell me what must I do to be saved?? I take it you think that Mormons are not saved as the follow a "different Jesus". What must I do? The table is yours.A Protestant would say...Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Rely on him alone for eternal life. and then a LDS would say that they believe that, yet they say that if you don't accept Joseph Smith as a prophet, or be baptized, or choose to do good works, then you are damned. I'm quoting Brigham Young directly.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 A Protestant would say...Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Rely on him alone for eternal life. and then a LDS would say that they believe that, yet they say that if you don't accept Joseph Smith as a prophet, or be baptized, or choose to do good works, then you are damned. I'm quoting Brigham Young directly.So what if I do more than is required by your beliefs? Am I damned?? Tell me were it says that in the bible?Remeber we are talking about your beliefs not mine. Mine are irrelevant to your yours.You see all LDS take upon them the name of the Savior at baptism and all know that he alone is the author of thier salvation. So accourding to your beliefs all LDS are saved. We all have accpets Jesus into our hearts and have confessed Jesus.Do you suppose that a man can confess Jesus and choose to do evil works and he will be saved?
Brad Posted July 21, 2009 Author Posted July 21, 2009 Huh? You said, "I wish a lot of the people on this thread could do the same".Do the same? you mean have a different belief than you. I think they do.I mean that I wish that the people here would not get mad, but only merely understand why I believe what I believe.
Daniel Peterson Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 A Protestant would say...Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Rely on him alone for eternal life. and then a LDS would say that they believe that, yet they say that if you don't accept Joseph Smith as a prophet, or be baptized, or choose to do good works, then you are damned. I'm quoting Brigham Young directly.Imagine this dialogue:Protestant: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Rely on him alone for eternal life."Potential Convert: "That's what I do. I simply reject the writings of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, James, Jude, and Paul."Protestant: "That's fine! You're saved!"Believable?
volgadon Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 That's the beauty of perspectives and differing points of view. Is that supposed to make me mad? It doesn't...I know you believe differently than I do. I wish a lot of the people on this thread could do the same.No, it won't make you insane any more than the rest of the creeds would.It is meant to make you concerned. Does it truly not bother you that in order to find scriptural basis for his pet dogma Luther had to change bits of the Bible? This is, after all, a dogma which you follow, or does being false only matter if you are LDS?I think most on this board DO believe differently than you do.
blueadept Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Would you say that the knowledge of the Catholic faith typically held by current Catholics is impressive?By the opinions and direction of the Catholic bishops for the last election, I'm impressed by the church-going Catholics voting but not the rest of them that called themselves Catholic.If we had absolutely no common ground, there would be no basis for a discussion between us. I don't see how it does that.Not my quote
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 I mean that I wish that the people here would not get mad, but only merely understand why I believe what I believe.Fair enough. I am not mad. I have had countless converstations with my fellow Christians on this very topic. I lived in Lynchburg VA were the great Jerry Fallwell lived. I am all ears for open dialgue, just don't mis represent my beliefs and we wont have an issue.
Daniel Peterson Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Not my quoteTrue. It's Brad's.I have to honestly say that, having grown up in an area with lots of Catholics, having worked with mostly Catholics through my teenage years and, in summers, through part of my twenties, having been around a great many Catholics most of my life, having served among Catholics for part of my mission, I haven't found lay-Catholic knowledge of Catholic history and dogma to be very impressive at all. And I say that without even a shred of satisfaction or triumphalism. I wish they were more knowledgeable. I think it sad that they're not.
Brad Posted July 21, 2009 Author Posted July 21, 2009 So what if I do more than is required by your beliefs? Am I damned?? Tell me were it says that in the bible?Remeber we are talking about your beliefs not mine. Mine are irrelevant to your yours.You see all LDS talk upon them the name of the Savior at baptism and all know that he alone is the author of thier salvation. So accourding to your beliefs all LDS are saved.Do you suppose that a man can confess Jesus and choose to do evil works and he will be saved?No, that would be to take away the power of the Gospel and the doctrine of Regeneration. "Believing" is not merely just accepting a statement of facts. It is trust. Putting your trust in Jesus Christ to save you. It says in John 3 that you must be born again. What exactly happens when you're born again? You become dead to sin. In Romans 6, it says "How can we, who are dead to sin, still live in it"?Your old man is crucified with Christ. You no longer are a slave to sin, but a slave to righteousness. Can you genuinely be born again and then choose to do evil for the rest of your life? Absolutely not, according to what I believe. After talking to many LDS, they like the idea of free choice. They believe that you can be born again and choose to do evil. Let me word it this way: They are saying, you can be born again, have your old self be crucified with Christ, become a slave to righteousness, and still choose to be a slave to sin.That doesn't compute with me.
ERayR Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 A protestant would say that because you follow the teaching of a false prophet, you now have a perverted version of the Gospel. Joseph Smith said salvation is likened unto a ladder, with faith being the first step. This adds us into the equation. You say you're saved by grace, but if YOU don't do works, then you lose that grace. We as protestants look at Romans 4:5 for this: "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."This is not saying that we don't believe that faith without works is dead. There's no getting around that. Protestants believe though that if you have faith, you will naturally have good works. Not because you choose to do them or not, but because you are given a new nature, you are a new creature. This way of looking at it I believe gives all the credit to God, so that we can't say that we had a part in our salvation by choosing to do good works. So instead of that ladder illustration, we see it as if God is throwing a rope down to us. By faith we grab that rope, and he pulls us up the rest of the way. That way, we have no part in our salvation at all.Your view of Mormonism on this concept is distorted and wrong but I am sure you have been informed of this before and yet you are still trying to tell me what I believe. Your straw man is wrong.Are you telling me that becaus I an LDS that my good works are not naturally because of my faith. I am glad to see you have such powers of discernment that you can read my motives. Now I am, because of my faith in Christ a new creature. I have the same faith as my Potestan friends but just because I am LDS it is not valid.
Daniel Peterson Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 ElRayR, all manner of sin can be forgive those who have faith in Christ -- except the sin of being Mormon.No work beyond accepting Christ is required of Christians -- except the work of rejecting Mormonism.
Brad Posted July 21, 2009 Author Posted July 21, 2009 Your view of Mormonism on this concept is distorted and wrong but I am sure you have been informed of this before and yet you are still trying to tell me what I believe. Your straw man is wrong.Are you telling me that becaus I an LDS that my good works are not naturally because of my faith. I am glad to see you have such powers of discernment that you can read my motives. Now I am, because of my faith in Christ a new creature. I have the same faith as my Potestan friends but just because I am LDS it is not valid.I apologize, I know that when I speak of what LDS believe, it doesn't cover everyone. I'm basing my statements off of what many LDS have told me, which differs with everyone I talk to. I had one man tell me that he really liked the rope analogy, and that he thought it was much better than Joseph Smith's analogy of the ladder, and I've had another one tell me that that completely takes free choice out of the equation, and that it would be heretical for an LDS to agree with.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 No, that would be to take away the power of the Gospel and the doctrine of Regeneration.That would? Were in the bible does it say that?"Believing" is not merely just accepting a statement of facts. It is trust. Putting your trust in Jesus Christ to save you. It says in John 3 that you must be born again. What exactly happens when you're born again? You become dead to sin. In Romans 6, it says "How can we, who are dead to sin, still live in it"? So what you seem to be saying is that you should not ever sin again? That you can't sin any more? So how does one trust Jesus? What does that mean? That sounds like an action word here?Your old man is crucified with Christ. You no longer are a slave to sin, but a slave to righteousness. Can you genuinely be born again and then choose to do evil for the rest of your life? Absolutely not, according to what I believe.I agree, but does that mean that you don't sin any more? What if I told a lie or stole some candy? What if I beat up my brother? It sounds like what you are saying is that one must become perfect at the point of "salvation"After talking to many LDS, they like the idea of free choice. They believe that you can be born again and choose to do evil. Let me word it this way: They are saying, you can be born again, have your old self be crucified with Christ, become a slave to righteousness, and still choose to be a slave to sin.That doesn't compute with me.So you are saying that once you are "born again" you can no longer sin? Does that mean the 2nd you do sin then we can say that you really were not saved?Remeber that the smallest sin would dis qualify you for salvation even a little white lie.
ERayR Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 I believe what I believe to the be the absolute truth. I'm able to put myself in your shoes and understand your way of thinking, but ultimately it would be wrong to accept anything contrary to what I believe to be the truth. LDS policy is the same I believe.Please lay off the condescension it is getting tiresome. You certainly have not exhibited any ability to put yourself in my shoes at all. You have been off the mark all the way.
clairc829 Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 I apologize, I know that when I speak of what LDS believe, it doesn't cover everyone. I'm basing my statements off of what many LDS have told me, which differs with everyone I talk to. I had one man tell me that he really liked the rope analogy, and that he thought it was much better than Joseph Smith's analogy of the ladder, and I've had another one tell me that that completely takes free choice out of the equation, and that it would be heretical for an LDS to agree with.Welcome to the world of Religion, where individual views differ greatly.Your rope analogy does not remove choice because you can still let go.Nice to have you in the discussion.
blueadept Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 I have to honestly say that, having grown up in an area with lots of Catholics, having worked with mostly Catholics through my teenage years and, in summers, through part of my twenties, having been around a great many Catholics most of my life, having served among Catholics for part of my mission, I haven't found lay-Catholic knowledge of Catholic history and dogma to be very impressive at all. And I say that without even a shred of satisfaction or triumphalism. I wish they were more knowledgeable. I think it sad that they're not.IMO, I would say that I'm only impressed with .5% of Catholics working knowledge of Church history and dogma. LDS tend to have a more working knowledge when it comes to being aware of their Church history and beliefs.It's my belief that one of the main reasons for this is because Mormons are taught to develop their own testimony and share it with others. My 2 cents
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