A Protestant's perspective on why we won't find common ground with LDS

[Flyonthewall]

IMO when an outsider looks at the LDS faith, the most obvious thing that others see is your missionary work to find converts. So most non-members would tend to disagree with you unfortunately.

Really? That is surprising to me. I find it odd that having missionaries would mean finding common ground means being converted. Or am I understanding you wrong?

[Wants2know]

Why then is it so difficult for protestants, especially evangelicals, to recognise us as such?

One of my best friends grew up the daughter of a Free Evangelical Preacher in Jersey. She fell in love with a nice Irish Catholic boy and although they've been married for 25 years and have raised a beautiful family, her dad continues to insist that she has sinned - to the extent that although she gave birth to his first grandchild, he refers to her sister's son as his "first". My only conclusion is that there are some religions that are prohibitive of loving outside their own faith. To me, this doesn't make any sense, as I believe Christ loves everyone. The best conclusion I can surmise in regards to why it's a challenge for some to consider LDS Christian... is that they simply 1. Don't have even the basic understanding of the LDS faith. And 2. Have a very different mindset in nature of a loving Christ that prevents them from adopting any "common ground". It's rather sad. And not the intention of Christ's work, IMO.

[blueadept]

Really? That is surprising to me. I find it odd that having missionaries would mean finding common ground means being converted. Or am I understanding you wrong?

Looking for common ground doesn't necessarily mean conversion but I've developed this thought after a few years of being married to my TBM wife. The 1st couple of years, I felt the pressure of when will I be converting. After that I ignored those feelings and simply looked at ecumenical things we shared.

It would be an interesting poll among non-members, but my impression of LDS missionary efforts as viewed by others is conversion first. That's why the door normally slams quickly in a missionary's face. The image isn't 'let's talk and share what common ground we have.'

The LDS church has an awesome charity effort. Unfortunately, non-members tend to place missionary (conversion) efforts of the LDS church higher than its charity effort IMO

[Sleeper Cell]

I got the chance to have a two hour conversation with Steven Page, the Director of the Institute of Religion at Weber State University (and a devout LDS). We â?¦ discussed many of the differences between LDS and Christians, and he really emphasized how LDS are trying to find common ground with Christians. This really made me think, and it caused me to come up with why I, as a protestant, can not find common ground with the LDS...and I would like to add that I am saying this in a respectful, loving wayâ?¦..I am only merely wanting to give you a Protestant's point of view on the issue â?¦ .

My fatherâ??s funeral service was jointly conducted by a Southern Baptist minister and a Mormon bishop. Neither had any difficulty in finding â??common groundâ? without compromising the integrity of their respective religious beliefs.

Point blank, we do not believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet, just because of all the evidence and suspicions that stack up against him. And when I pray to God with a sincere heart, I am not given that "feeling of truth/burning in the bosom" that you talk about, but I am left with a horrible feeling that I have just read the words of a false prophet. No offense, but if I did think he was a true prophet, there would be no reason for me to not be LDS myself. Given this, if he is not a true prophet, he falls under the category of a false prophet.

Fair enough. I take no offense. I doubt that many Mormons would.

Let's just say (hypothetically â?¦) that Joseph Smith indeed IS a false prophet. Just for the sake of putting yourself in a protestant's position. After reading these verses, do you think God would be happy with us for not rebuking a false prophet when we see one? We have to, out of sheer conscience. That is why we feel the need to witness to LDS, not because we hate you all, but because we love you, and just want to see you in heaven with us and the Heavenly Father one day.

How does rebuking a false prophet preclude you from seeking to find common ground with his followers -- especially when his followers are still willing to try to find common ground with you?

If you really care about witnessing to LDS â??not because we hate you all, but because we love you,â? you might consider that the most effective approach may be to first find common ground.

Paul was even able to find common ground with idol worshippers, without compromising his religious beliefs. .

Men of Athens â?¦ as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription: â??to the unknown God.' Whom, therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. [Acts 17:22-23]

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

This really made me think, and it caused me to come up with why I, as a protestant, can not find common ground with the LDS...and I would like to add that I am saying this in a respectful, loving way.

-Brad

OK, Bradâ?¦

Your letter suggests that you could only receive one answerâ?¦I am not surprised, that if you did pray you did not do so as directed in James 1: 5-7 suggestsâ?¦(Listed below)

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

You had no faith because of all the â??factsâ? which you have already received from sources that are designed to cast doubt, Therefore your faith â??didâ?? waiver. As a result you received by your own admission â??no answerâ?, and as James taught for those who â??waiverâ? â??â?¦let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lordâ? (Verse 7).

Therefore because you believe that you already have the answer then no other answer will do. I am not â??offendedâ? at your comments, but I am also not surprised at them.

Your list of scriptures were designed to give a sermon. The reasons you do not believe that JS was a Prophet are based of information you have from his life, and his weaknesses. Yet despite the many weaknesses of Biblical Prophets you do not question because you have faith in the Bible. God does and always has called upon weak and sinful men to carry out his purposes (and will again) because weak and sinful men are all he has to choose from. Your personality is one, much like Paulâ??s. You believe you have the truth and will act accordingly until something like a â??road to Damascusâ? event takes place in your life. I hope it will but it is unlikely. You seek all your information from sources that shade the facts of the history of the church. There is common ground between us, but tunnel vision does not permit you to see it.

We believe in doing goodâ?¦you believe in doing good

We believe in our causeâ?¦you believe in your cause

We love our familiesâ?¦you love your family

We want what is best for the worldâ?¦you want what is best for the world

We want salvationâ?¦you want salvation

We love Godâ?¦you love God

We worship Christ according to our understandingâ?¦you do the same.

We would lay down our lives as Americans for your freedom to believe as you doâ?¦I assume the same applies to you.

We believe in â??Salvation by Graceâ?â?¦you believe in â??Salvation by Graceâ?.

Nuff saidâ?¦

Thank you for your post.

Pa pa

[mnn727]

and discussed many of the differences between LDS and Christians, and he really emphasized how LDS are trying to find common ground with Christians.

Since LDS ARE Christians you're entire premise is bogus.And the assertion that you can;t find 'common ground' shows a lacking on your part. not ours, we have much in common with 'mainstream' christianity.

[Flyonthewall]

Looking for common ground doesn't necessarily mean conversion but I've developed this thought after a few years of being married to my TBM wife. The 1st couple of years, I felt the pressure of when will I be converting. After that I ignored those feelings and simply looked at ecumenical things we shared.

It would be an interesting poll among non-members, but my impression of LDS missionary efforts as viewed by others is conversion first. That's why the door normally slams quickly in a missionary's face. The image isn't 'let's talk and share what common ground we have.'

The LDS church has an awesome charity effort. Unfortunately, non-members tend to place missionary (conversion) efforts of the LDS church higher than its charity effort IMO

LOL...I can certainly see your point. Missionaries do seek common ground as a place to start for the purpose of converting, but that is their calling. I can just picture a spouse, with that same hope for conversion(at least being on the same page in faith), starting at common ground, but I had in mind two people from different faiths that were simply looking for a better understanding of each other in hopes of goodwill between them.

[Thunderfire]

We had a really good talk, and discussed many of the differences between LDS and Christians, and he really emphasized how LDS are trying to find common ground with Christians. This really made me think, and it caused me to come up with why I, as a protestant, can not find common ground with the LDS...

Hello Brad,

To begin, I'm not a member of the LDS church, but I am a member of another church which believes Joseph Smith to be a true prophet. With this, I would like to discuss some of your comments.

1) First, in your comments you make the statement regarding the differences between the LDS and "Christians". But then you make a more proper statement (my opinion) regarding LDS and "Protestants". The LDS are Christian in every sense of the word, yet they are not "Protestants". The difference is the same as the Biblical examples speaking of the House of Israel verse the Gentiles. Jesus spent his ministry with those of the House of Israel and Paul felt called to take the message of Jesus to the Gentiles.

2) Joseph Smith was a prophet from the House of Israel. So his message will seem foreign to the Gentiles. But as Peter learned, the message needed to go out to the Gentiles also (Story of Cornelius Acts 10). The problem is how both of these groups use terms and view our relationship with Jesus. Because of this, the message of Restoration which Joseph brought is lost to many Gentiles.

3) The House of Israel has a message of "gathering" where the Gentiles believe in rapture. The House of Israel has a message of being the "bride of Christ" where the Gentiles focus more on salvation from hell when we die. Of course, these are generalities but the foundational truth here is true. So no, the two messages can never be reconciled because they are vastly different. But the people can be reconciled in Jesus as we die to self, to our beliefs which separate us, and find our everything in him and his revelation which he reveals of himself.

Anyway, just my thoughts...

[clairc829]

know you disagree with me already, I only want you to see my perspective on the topic.

Point blank, we do not believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet, just because of all the evidence and suspicions that stack up against him. And when I pray to God with a sincere heart, I am not given that "feeling of truth/burning in the bosom" that you talk about, but I am left with a horrible feeling that I have just read the words of a false prophet.

If the words you read are from an anti-mormon web site I don't blame you the way they quote Joseph and present what he teaches I do not believe, and perhaps the horrible feeling comes from where you are getting your info.

I am LDS have a brother in law that attends the Methodist Church and we can talk about just about anything and find common ground including religion.

I notice consistent with other topics posted by Brad that he seems to have disappeared after dropping his message.

[ACW]

I took a Christian Bible study class about 10 years ago. I understand where Brad is coming from. We speak different languages when it comes to religion. Mormonese vs EV Christianese. I sat quiet and participated when necessary. It was a wonderful experience but I had to twist my brain to grasp some concepts...ie the Trinity. That's when I realized that Christians would have to do the same to grasp some LDS concepts.... ie Plan of Salvation. The Christian Plan of Salvation is different(variety) from the LDS Plan of Salvation.

Matthew 7:20 "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." The LDS membeship may have a few bad apples, but the Church as a whole has very good fruit... It's too bad Brad is above seeing this.

[thesometimesaint]

clairc829:

He does seem to have the habit of dropping "Love Bombs".

[volgadon]

Brad misses the good old Tortosa days.

[Scott Lloyd]

I took a Christian Bible study class about 10 years ago. I understand where Brad is coming from. We speak different languages when it comes to religion. Mormonese vs EV Christianese. I sat quiet and participated when necessary. It was a wonderful experience but I had to twist my brain to grasp some concepts...ie the Trinity. That's when I realized that Christians would have to do the same to grasp some LDS concepts.... ie Plan of Salvation. The Christian Plan of Salvation is different(variety) from the LDS Plan of Salvation.

As has been pointed out here, finding common ground need not entail embracing another's religious faith. It is merely identifying points of agreement.

Latter-day Saints adhere to the Judeo-Christian ethic. On that alone, Brad ought to be able to find common ground with us.

[jadams_4242]

Well, it's been about a month since I've last consistently posted on the board - I've been in Utah without a computer. Just got back to Texas this past Friday.

Anyways, during my time in Utah, I got the chance to have a two hour conversation with Steven Page, the Director of the Institute of Religion at Weber State University (and a devout LDS). We had a really good talk, and discussed many of the differences between LDS and Christians, and he really emphasized how LDS are trying to find common ground with Christians. This really made me think, and it caused me to come up with why I, as a protestant, can not find common ground with the LDS...and I would like to add that I am saying this in a respectful, loving way. I am not attacking any of you, or being what you call "Anti-mormon"...I am only merely wanting to give you a Protestant's point of view on the issue, and I only ask that you read it objectively and try to put yourself in a Protestant's shoes. I know you disagree with me already, I only want you to see my perspective on the topic.

Point blank, we do not believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet, just because of all the evidence and suspicions that stack up against him. And when I pray to God with a sincere heart, I am not given that "feeling of truth/burning in the bosom" that you talk about, but I am left with a horrible feeling that I have just read the words of a false prophet. No offense, but if I did think he was a true prophet, there would be no reason for me to not be LDS myself. Given this, if he is not a true prophet, he falls under the category of a false prophet. And what is the offense of a false prophet given in the Bible? Well, look at Galatians 1:6-8: "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

and also in Ezekiel 13:1-9: "1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD;

3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!

4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.

5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.

6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.

7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?

8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD.

9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD."

So, looking at this, let's just say (hypothetically for you LDS out there), that Joseph Smith indeed IS a false prophet. Just for the sake of putting yourself in a protestant's position. After reading these verses, do you think God would be happy with us for not rebuking a false prophet when we see one? We have to, out of sheer conscience. That is why we feel the need to witness to LDS, not because we hate you all, but because we love you, and just want to see you in heaven with us and the Heavenly Father one day.

Thanks for reading, I hope my words don't offend, but only merely give you all another perspective.

-Brad

you rceive confirmation in worship of the lord almighty; we also receive this in worship; the differance being we also receive undeniable confirmation in other ordinances that enforce the worship and the promises.

[ACW]

As has been pointed out here, finding common ground need not entail embracing another's religious faith. It is merely identifying points of agreement.

Agree, but I grew up LDS in the south and was told I was going to hell every so often by some Christians. I just ignored what they said and moved on. About 10 years ago my Christian neighbor and I tried to have a religious discussion and it was so odd. We weren't connecting so she invited me to her bible study...wow, what an eye opener...at least for me. I found "embracing" her faith to be very educational.

Latter-day Saints adhere to the Judeo-Christian ethic. On that alone, Brad ought to be able to find common ground with us.

Brad doesn't want to find common ground with the LDS faith...

[Bytor]

differences between LDS and Christians, and he really emphasized how LDS are trying to find common ground with Christians

You immediately tainted your post with this........how condescending and typical. Living in the deep south, I hear this non sense all too often. Perhaps we should start a thread about how Protestants are really just rebellious Catholics......and not really Christians at all.

[dblagent007]

That is why we feel the need to witness to LDS, not because we hate you all, but because we love you, and just want to see you in heaven with us and the Heavenly Father one day.

Yes, I feel the love shine through when you call my religion Satanic, evil, wrong, etc., etc. It just radiates outward and consumes me in good feelings. Keep on loving us until we can no longer stand to associate with you or your kind. I feel more love from secular atheists than the bible-thumpers, by far.

Mormons also shouldn't treat apostates the way bible-thumpers treat Mormons. It's wrong for the same reasons.

[Luigi]

You've already said that you don't believe JS is a prophet, so how can you pray with a sincere heart when you have already dismissed as false the things you are praying about?

Because he studied it out and came to a conclusion first and then prayed about it. Seems he followed the prescribed procedure perfectly.

[Luigi]

Hello Brad,

Since you have given "A Protestant's perspective on why (you) won't find common ground with LDS." Let me answer some of your objections if I may, and also point out that common ground is a mythical ideal, I suppose it is more of a hope of a common understanding, while disagreeing still a hope for some sort of peaceful co-existence.

I think Lightbearer makes a good point. Ultimately the two sides of this argument, LDS and Protestant, believe that the beliefs of the other are in error and consequently can adversely effect the eternal salvation of their proponents (or others who listen to them). I see little hope for 'common ground' among people who think their opponent's viewpoint has the potential of dragging their family and friends away from eternal bliss.

[Brad]

OK, Brad…

Your letter suggests that you could only receive one answer…I am not surprised, that if you did pray you did not do so as directed in James 1: 5-7 suggests…(Listed below)

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

This is where I disagree on what this verse means. This verse is not telling you to pray about whether a prophet is true or not. It is talking about discernment, much like the situation of King Solomon. I believe that we are to test the words of a prophet, and by that we will know if he is true or not. No where in the Bible does it say to pray over the truth of a prophet or scripture.

Anyways, I really would like to stay away from arguing our beliefs or getting into why or why not Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet. We both have our positions, let's respect that. The point of this thread was that I want you to see my perspective on WHY I choose not to try and find common ground with LDS.

If Joseph Smith really was a false prophet, you guys are in big trouble. I'm sure most of you can agree with that. God takes false prophets very, very seriously...which is my point.

And I don't know why any of you are thinking I'm being condescending. I'm not, I promise. I just spent a week in Utah, and none of the LDS people I talked to took offense to this point at all (I guess it's because people may read text differently than the way I would speak it...)

Although yes, in my past posts I have gotten in to debates about certain theological stand points, this is not what I'm doing here. I don't want to debate anyone....i.e., try and prove to you why Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet. I only want you to understand that because I believe Joseph was false, it would be wrong of me to accept him as a brother in Christ. And as far as you claiming that Joseph preached the same Gospel as we protestants believe, that isn't true. Joseph taught exaltation (which really brings up a red flag to a lot of Protestants), Joseph compared salvation as a "ladder", with faith only being the first step (whereas we as Protestants see salvation as a rope, where faith is grabbing onto the rope, and having God pull us up), Joseph teaches to pray about truth - we don't.

Now, I understand you are going to disagree with everything I'm saying. That's no surprise. I just ask that you put yourself in my shoes.

[johndoe]

The point of this thread was that I want you to see my perspective on WHY I choose not to try and find common ground with LDS.

So you feel that trying to find common ground would represent tacit approval of some part of LDS doctrine, where you feel that, since Joseph Smith was a false prophet in your estimation, no compromise can be made on any point whatsoever. Is that about right?

I have a question for you. Do you think that all eventually LDS members must inevitably be thrust down to hell unless we leave our faith for yours?

[Brad]

Yes, I feel the love shine through when you call my religion Satanic, evil, wrong, etc., etc. It just radiates outward and consumes me in good feelings. Keep on loving us until we can no longer stand to associate with you or your kind. I feel more love from secular atheists than the bible-thumpers, by far.

Mormons also shouldn't treat apostates the way bible-thumpers treat Mormons. It's wrong for the same reasons.

I'm fairly certain if we were to have a conversation in person, you wouldn't feel that way. I think a lot of people are reading my posts with a negative, attacking tone assumption.

[Daniel Peterson]

We had a really good talk, and discussed many of the differences between LDS and Christians, and he really emphasized how LDS are trying to find common ground with Christians.

This is completely nonsensical, as written. It would be like trying to find commonalities between squirrels and mammals, or discussing the differences between Toyotas and automobiles, or between trees and plants.

This really made me think, and it caused me to come up with why I, as a protestant, can not find common ground with the LDS.

None? Absolutely none?

So I take it that you disbelieve in God, reject the Bible, disdain morality, deny the physical resurrection of Christ, regard life after death as a myth, repudiate the Sermon on the Mount, and so forth?

What kind of a "Protestant" are you, for Pete's sake?????

[volgadon]

This is where I disagree on what this verse means. This verse is not telling you to pray about whether a prophet is true or not. It is talking about discernment, much like the situation of King Solomon. I believe that we are to test the words of a prophet, and by that we will know if he is true or not. No where in the Bible does it say to pray over the truth of a prophet or scripture.Anyways, I really would like to stay away from arguing our beliefs or getting into why or why not Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet. We both have our positions, let's respect that. The point of this thread was that I want you to see my perspective on WHY I choose not to try and find common ground with LDS. Although yes, in my past posts I have gotten in to debates about certain theological stand points, this is not what I'm doing here. I don't want to debate anyone....i.e., try and prove to you why Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet. I only want you to understand that because I believe Joseph was false, it would be wrong of me to accept him as a brother in Christ. And as far as you claiming that Joseph preached the same Gospel as we protestants believe, that isn't true. Joseph taught exaltation (which really brings up a red flag to a lot of Protestants), Joseph compared salvation as a "ladder", with faith only being the first step (whereas we as Protestants see salvation as a rope, where faith is grabbing onto the rope, and having God pull us up), Joseph teaches to pray about truth - we don't.Now, I understand you are going to disagree with everything I'm saying. That's no surprise. I just ask that you put yourself in my shoes.

And one does not need discernement in that case? You are setting up artificial boundaries.Of course you aren't entering into a debate with us, you prefer insults.

Joseph teaches to pray about truth - we don't.

Therein lies your problem.Really, you make it sound like a bad thing.

I'm fairly certain if we were to have a conversation in person, you wouldn't feel that way. I think a lot of people are reading my posts with a negative, attacking tone assumption.

Because you posted a negative, condescending post and insist that we are not Christians and so on on.

[Lachoneus]

If Joseph Smith really was a false prophet, you guys are in big trouble. I'm sure most of you can agree with that. God takes false prophets very, very seriously...which is my point.

If Joseph Smith really was a true prophet, you are in big trouble. I'm sure you can agree with that. God takes it seriously when you reject his appointed servants (e.g., 2 Chron 36:16-17).