SilverKnight Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 That sort of worries me. If you think I do not have the fullness of the Gospel, and that I reject a true prophet of God, why on earth aren't you afraid for me?Because for me, should some sort of divine creator exist, the last thing he/she/it would do is have some dreadful fate waiting in store for the billions of innocents who died, in their ignorance, without 'correct' knowledge of this mysterious creator.Your answer highlights exactly what LDS believe to be brutally wrong with your medieval theology. This is why LDS do not fear, in the least, for our fellow humans. We simply do not believe in dark ages folklore about vengeful ogres in the sky.Brigham Young said it himself, anyone who rejects Joseph Smith and his teachings is damned. Not because you worship him, but because you believe his teachings are absolutely necessary for salvation.A thoroughly pitiful grasping attempt to repaint mormons in the frightening hellfire hues of your theology. Not a single LDS leader would say this. It is categorically false. Damning people in their ignorance is your doctrine, not ours.This is why I don't like common ground. It is nothing more than political correctness, and it encourages both sides to stay where they are.Well I happen to like common ground. It is a safe place for the human family to meet, talk and help each other. It is your fundamentalist, us-versus-them dogmatism that threatens to plunge humanity back into stone-age tribalism.One of us is right....and one of us is in big trouble. That should concern BOTH of us!Absolutely absurd, on both counts. Both of us might be spectacularly wrong. And the idea that one of us is in "big trouble" because we have differing ideas about an invisible being whose existence is utterly unprovable is rather hysterical and rather insulting to human reason and common sense.
Brad Posted July 21, 2009 Author Posted July 21, 2009 ElRayR, all manner of sin can be forgive those who have faith in Christ -- except the sin of being Mormon.No work beyond accepting Christ is required of Christians -- except the work of rejecting Mormonism.OK, well let me word this way. A Protestant would look at it the same way as you could also say, "all manner of sin can be forgiven by those who have faith in Christ -- except for those who do not full faith in Him (i.e. Mormonism)"That's just how Protestants view Mormonism. Not to attack your religion or anything. We see Mormonism as a religion that says yes, you need faith, yes, you need to be born again, but if you don't choose to do works, you're not going to heaven. Protestants (or atleast Baptists), say that it is impossible to be born again and not be changed. It is impossible to have genuine faith in Christ, and choose to be continually carnal.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Protestants believe though that if you have faith, you will naturally have good works. Not because you choose to do them or not, but because you are given a new nature, you are a new creature. This way of looking at it I believe gives all the credit to God, so that we can't say that we had a part in our salvation by choosing to do good works.That is fine and dandy, but were in the bible does it say, "We have to give all credit to God" Or that if we have works as a product of our faith that that some how takes away from Grace?"so that we can't say that we had a part in our salvation by choosing to do good works."Is this bad? Were does it say in the bible that this is bad? Do you believe that Grace has no conditions?
ERayR Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 I mean that I wish that the people here would not get mad, but only merely understand why I believe what I believe.I mean that I wish that you would not get mad, but only merely understand why it bothers some of us that you misrepresent LDS teachings.
Brad Posted July 21, 2009 Author Posted July 21, 2009 Because for me, should some sort of divine creator exist, the last thing he/she/it would do is have some dreadful fate waiting in store for the billions of innocents who died, in their ignorance, without 'correct' knowledge of this mysterious creator.Your answer highlights exactly what LDS believe to be brutally wrong with your medieval theology. This is why LDS do not fear, in the least, for our fellow humans. We simply do not believe in dark ages folklore about vengeful ogres in the sky.A thoroughly pitiful grasping attempt to repaint mormons in the frightening hellfire hues of your theology. Not a single LDS leader would say this. It is categorically false. Damning people in their ignorance is your doctrine, not ours.Well I happen to like common ground. It is a safe place for the human family to meet, talk and help each other. It is your fundamentalist, us-versus-them dogmatism that threatens to plunge humanity back into stone-age tribalism.Absolutely absurd, on both counts. Both of us might be spectacularly wrong. And the idea that one of us is in "big trouble" because we have differing ideas about an invisible being whose existence is utterly unprovable is rather hysterical and rather insulting to human reason and common sense.All of my statements were based upon the assumption that God is indeed real, and that Jesus was who he said he was. Obviously there are other possibilities, I just thought that we would all atleast be able to agree that we couldn't of possibly come from apes.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 That's just how Protestants view Mormonism. Not to attack your religion or anything. We see Mormonism as a religion that says yes, you need faith, yes, you need to be born again, but if you don't choose to do works, you're not going to heaven. Protestants (or atleast Baptists), say that it is impossible to be born again and not be changed. It is impossible to have genuine faith in Christ, and choose to be continually carnal.It sounds like you are getting hung up on a big non issue. Do you believe that after you are "saved" that you have no choice any more?That is what it sounds like you are saying.
Ceeboo Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 True. It's Brad's.I have to honestly say that, having grown up in an area with lots of Catholics, having worked with mostly Catholics through my teenage years and, in summers, through part of my twenties, having been around a great many Catholics most of my life, having served among Catholics for part of my mission, I haven't found lay-Catholic knowledge of Catholic history and dogma to be very impressive at all. And I say that without even a shred of satisfaction or triumphalism. I wish they were more knowledgeable. I think it sad that they're not.Hey Mr. Pundit Dr. Dan Peterson ( NO CATHOLIC BASHING !!!! )I hope I am not forced to report this to the Mod team ( As you may or may not know, a Mod report can lead to removal of Pundit status here )Peace and carry on peopleCeeboo
Daniel Peterson Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 OK, well let me word this way. A Protestant would look at it the same way as you could also say, "all manner of sin can be forgiven by those who have faith in Christ -- except for those who do not full faith in Him (i.e. Mormonism)"If you can find me an informed, rational Latter-day Saint who actually believes that he or she will earn his or her salvation, even in part -- that God will somehow owe salvation to him or to her -- I'll be dazzled. I've never met one. And I've looked for one. For years.
Brad Posted July 21, 2009 Author Posted July 21, 2009 I mean that I wish that you would not get mad, but only merely understand why it bothers some of us that you misrepresent LDS teachings.Where I got my LDS knowledge came from LDS people, and the number of people I talked to during my time in Utah. If it's misrepresented, it originates in one of your own misrepresenting it to me.
clairc829 Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 All of my statements were based upon the assumption that God is indeed real, and that Jesus was who he said he was. Obviously there are other possibilities, I just thought that we would all atleast be able to agree that we couldn't of possibly come from apes.There are people who post here who are LDS ex-LDS other Christians, atheists agnostic and probably a few I missed, so be careful what you assume.
Brad Posted July 21, 2009 Author Posted July 21, 2009 It sounds like you are getting hung up on a big non issue. Do you believe that after you are "saved" that you have no choice any more?That is what it sounds like you are saying.Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. It is impossible to become dead to sin (born again, "saved") and still live in it. Paul said it himself in Romans 6.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 OK, well let me word this way. A Protestant would look at it the same way as you could also say, "all manner of sin can be forgiven by those who have faith in Christ -- except for those who do not full faith in Him (i.e. Mormonism)"In what way do Mormons not have "full faith". Were is "full Fiath" mentioned in the bible. What is "full faith".
LeSellers Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 All of my statements were based upon the assumption that God is indeed real, and that Jesus was who he said he was. Obviously there are other possibilities, I just thought that we would all atleast [sic] be able to agree that we couldn't of [sic] possibly come from apes.Do I sense ... common ground?Lehi
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. It is impossible to become dead to sin (born again, "saved") and still live in it. Paul said it himself in Romans 6.I disagree as I cannot find a single verse in scripture that states we have no choice once we are saved.Tell me why was Judas label as Son of Perdition? He was saved as he knew Christ.Don't forget post 97. Thanks.I know you are being bombarded here.
Brad Posted July 21, 2009 Author Posted July 21, 2009 In what way do Mormons not have "full faith". Were is "full Fiath" mentioned in the bible. What is "full faith".Full faith is genuine faith. It is all or nothing, if you don't have full faith, you have nothing.Anyways, I have to go now...I'll be back on in a few hours. Despite several people getting angry, I still think this thread has been very enriching and informative. Talk to everyone soon!
Thunderfire Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 From an outsiders point of view following this discussion...is this the best example of Christianity by what is being said back and forth here? I stand amazed watching how professed "christians" talk to each other. I can picture my beloved Jesus Christ being crucified all over again by those who profess his name. Shame on all of us...
Daniel Peterson Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Don't worry, Ceeboo. I'm not a Catholic-basher, and I wasn't bashing Catholics.I trust you were joking.Do I sense ... common ground?Apparently not, however much it may look like common ground. According to Brad, he's just being politically correct.
SilverKnight Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 All of my statements were based upon the assumption that God is indeed real, and that Jesus was who he said he was.If God is real we both may still be completely wrong.If Jesus is real we both may still be completely wrong.You have no idea what Jesus actually said, taught or did.Obviously there are other possibilities, I just thought that we would all atleast be able to agree that we couldn't of possibly come from apes. The evidence that we share a common ancestor with apes vastly outweighs any competing supernatural theory.
blueadept Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 If you can find me an informed, rational Latter-day Saint who actually believes that he or she will earn his or her salvation, even in part -- that God will somehow owe salvation to him or to her -- I'll be dazzled. I've never met one. And I've looked for one. For years.Probably just my misconception here. When the issue of Salvation came up between my TBM wife and I, she seemed more concerned about exaltation and not necessarily about her Salvation. Did I misunderstand?
volgadon Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 OK, well let me word this way. A Protestant would look at it the same way as you could also say, "all manner of sin can be forgiven by those who have faith in Christ -- except for those who do not full faith in Him (i.e. Mormonism)"That's just how Protestants view Mormonism. Not to attack your religion or anything. We see Mormonism as a religion that says yes, you need faith, yes, you need to be born again, but if you don't choose to do works, you're not going to heaven. Protestants (or atleast Baptists), say that it is impossible to be born again and not be changed. It is impossible to have genuine faith in Christ, and choose to be continually carnal.If you do nothing with your faith, then you lose it. Faith, as has been explained time and time again, means being faithful, means doing the things your lord has commanded you to do. Can you call Christ lord and refuse to do works? Paul says to work out our salvation.Christ says if ye love me, keep my commandments.All the epistles of the apostles are written to people who had accepted Jesus, who had been baptised and would consider themselves born again, yet those epistles are full of guidance and warning.
ERayR Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 OK, well let me word this way. A Protestant would look at it the same way as you could also say, "all manner of sin can be forgiven by those who have faith in Christ -- except for those who do not full faith in Him (i.e. Mormonism)"That's just how Protestants view Mormonism. Not to attack your religion or anything. We see Mormonism as a religion that says yes, you need faith, yes, you need to be born again, but if you don't choose to do works, you're not going to heaven. Protestants (or atleast Baptists), say that it is impossible to be born again and not be changed. It is impossible to have genuine faith in Christ, and choose to be continually carnal.And your perception would be wrong and you are choosing to exclude me on your erroneous characterizations of LDS beliefs. Back to a suggestion I had in a former post, it would serve you much better to get an actual understanding of things LDS before you reject things LDS. That way you could save some time by not having to erect the strawment to reject.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Full faith is genuine faith. It is all or nothing, if you don't have full faith, you have nothing.Anyways, I have to go now...I'll be back on in a few hours. Despite several people getting angry, I still think this thread has been very enriching and informative. Talk to everyone soon!Unfortunatly you didn't answer the question you just switched terms. What does full faith, or genuine faith mean? How do the LDS people not have "full faith" or "genuine faith".THanks for your time.I don't know that people are angry with you as they feel you are mis-represting thier beliefs. That is a big difference. I am not angry, truth be told this is the most I have been given in a while with out the other participant being obtuse. Thank you for that.
mnn727 Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 I do not seek to attack your religion, I only mean to share my own beliefs, and why I believe differently. "Sharing the Gospel in Love" is what a lot of Protestants call it.yet the very words you choose do nothing but attack. I would suggest you get a better grasp of the English language and then choose your words carefully, until then we'll read your first sentance or two and disregard everything else you says as being religiously bigotted
volgadon Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Where I got my LDS knowledge came from LDS people, and the number of people I talked to during my time in Utah. If it's misrepresented, it originates in one of your own misrepresenting it to me.No, it originates in your failure to follow up and do serious research, including studying our scriptures honestly and openly.If it isn't too much to ask, read Mosiah 2:21-25.That should put a stop to whinging on and on about us believing we can earn our salvation.
clairc829 Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Probably just my misconception here. When the issue of Salvation came up between my TBM wife and I, she seemed more concerned about exaltation and not necessarily about her Salvation. Did I misunderstand?We don't want to give Brad too much to chew on at once, but yes we are more concerned about exaltation. It is something that we aspire to however no one ever earns it without the Atonement making up for our shortcomings, since all fall short.
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