A Protestant's perspective on why we won't find common ground with LDS

[ERayR]

Where I got my LDS knowledge came from LDS people, and the number of people I talked to during my time in Utah. If it's misrepresented, it originates in one of your own misrepresenting it to me.

What you are exhibiting is not knowledge from LDS people but rather LDS information filtered and interpreted through your twisted, narrow perspective, without an iota of effort to understand it. Your continued refusal on this thread to ignore attempts to correct your misconceptions, to brush them aside is very telling as to your motives.

[Ceeboo]

Don't worry, Ceeboo. I'm not a Catholic-basher, and I wasn't bashing Catholics.

I trust you were joking.

Indeed !!!!!

I am confident you are not a " basher " of Catholics ( or any group for that matter )

Although I may not always agree ( I am a crazy Catholic after all), I certainly appreciate, respect, and at times admire the contributions you share with us here.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[Daniel Peterson]

From an outsiders point of view following this discussion...is this the best example of Christianity by what is being said back and forth here?

I stand amazed watching how professed "christians" talk to each other. I can picture my beloved Jesus Christ being crucified all over again by those who profess his name. Shame on all of us...

Could you be specific about what's "shameful"?

This is a discussion board, where differences are argued. By its nature, the exchanges here will be a bit different than in a prayer service or in a choir rehearsal or when ladling out mashed potatoes at a soup kitchen.

[volgadon]

I wonder if Brad is at all familiar with the techniques, tactics and purpose of the Tortosa Disputations.

[SilverKnight]

Anyways, I have to go now...I'll be back on in a few hours. Despite several people getting angry, I still think this thread has been very enriching and informative. Talk to everyone soon!

Brad,

I think the point you got yourself into trouble is when you went beyond disagreeing with LDS and suggested that we were in 'big trouble' because of our beliefs.

Indeed a good many posters on this board contend that Joseph Smith was nothing more than a skilled fraud.

That's fine if you think that. But when you suggest that believing it will wind us up in the lake of fire, you will encounter some spirited resistance - especially since your own beliefs are just as indefensible.

[Lightbearer]

No, that would be to take away the power of the Gospel and the doctrine of Regeneration.

"Believing" is not merely just accepting a statement of facts. It is trust. Putting your trust in Jesus Christ to save you. It says in John 3 that you must be born again. What exactly happens when you're born again? You become dead to sin. In Romans 6, it says "How can we, who are dead to sin, still live in it"?

Your old man is crucified with Christ. You no longer are a slave to sin, but a slave to righteousness. Can you genuinely be born again and then choose to do evil for the rest of your life? Absolutely not, according to what I believe. After talking to many LDS, they like the idea of free choice. They believe that you can be born again and choose to do evil. Let me word it this way: They are saying, you can be born again, have your old self be crucified with Christ, become a slave to righteousness, and still choose to be a slave to sin.

That doesn't compute with me.

I note that you did not address any of my comments, but no matter. You are right I cannot place myself in your position, I could not imagine believing in a Church that had no prophets or apostles but dead ones. Now to address your erroneous ideas of what Mormons believe. Instead of reading Anti-Mormon quotes from the Journal of Discourses, I would suggest reading the standard works of the Church. No LDS believes that having faith is just accepting a statement of facts. It is insulting that you suggest the we do not put our trust in Jesus Christ when that is the central doctrine of the Church and being born again is also mentioned here:

(Alma 5:14-51) "And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts? Do ye exercise faith in the redemption of him who created you? Do you look forward with an eye of faith, and view this mortal body raised in immortality, and this corruption raised in incorruption, to stand before God to be judged according to the deeds which have been done in the mortal body? I say unto you, can you imagine to yourselves that ye hear the voice of the Lord, saying unto you, in that day: Come unto me ye blessed, for behold, your works have been the works of righteousness upon the face of the earth? Or do ye imagine to yourselves that ye can lie unto the Lord in that day, and sayâ??Lord, our works have been righteous works upon the face of the earthâ??and that he will save you? Or otherwise, can ye imagine yourselves brought before the tribunal of God with your souls filled with guilt and remorse, having a remembrance of all your guilt, yea, a perfect remembrance of all your wickedness, yea, a remembrance that ye have set at defiance the commandments of God? I say unto you, can ye look up to God at that day with a pure heart and clean hands? I say unto you, can you look up, having the image of God engraven upon your countenances? I say unto you, can ye think of being saved when you have yielded yourselves to become subjects to the devil? I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins. And now I ask of you, my brethren, how will any of you feel, if ye shall stand before the bar of God, having your garments stained with blood and all manner of filthiness? Behold, what will these things testify against you? Behold will they not testify that ye are murderers, yea, and also that ye are guilty of all manner of wickedness? Behold, my brethren, do ye suppose that such an one can have a place to sit down in the kingdom of God, with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob, and also all the holy prophets, whose garments are cleansed and are spotless, pure and white? I say unto you, Nay; except ye make our Creator a liar from the beginning, or suppose that he is a liar from the beginning, ye cannot suppose that such can have place in the kingdom of heaven; but they shall be cast out for they are the children of the kingdom of the devil. And now behold, I say unto you, my brethren, if ye have experienced a change of heart, and if ye have felt to sing the song of redeeming love, I would ask, can ye feel so now? Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? That your garments have been cleansed and made white through the blood of Christ, who will come to redeem his people from their sins? Behold, are ye stripped of pride? I say unto you, if ye are not ye are not prepared to meet God. Behold ye must prepare quickly; for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand, and such an one hath not eternal life. Behold, I say, is there one among you who is not stripped of envy? I say unto you that such an one is not prepared; and I would that he should prepare quickly, for the hour is close at hand, and he knoweth not when the time shall come; for such an one is not found guiltless. And again I say unto you, is there one among you that doth make a mock of his brother, or that heapeth upon him persecutions? Wo unto such an one, for he is not prepared, and the time is at hand that he must repent or he cannot be saved! Yea, even wo unto all ye workers of iniquity; repent, repent, for the Lord God hath spoken it! Behold, he sendeth an invitation unto all men, for the arms of mercy are extended towards them, and he saith: Repent, and I will receive you. Yea, he saith: Come unto me and ye shall partake of the fruit of the tree of life; yea, ye shall eat and drink of the bread and the waters of life freely; Yea, come unto me and bring forth works of righteousness, and ye shall not be hewn down and cast into the fireâ?? For behold, the time is at hand that whosoever bringeth forth not good fruit, or whosoever doeth not the works of righteousness, the same have cause to wail and mourn. O ye workers of iniquity; ye that are puffed up in the vain things of the world, ye that have professed to have known the ways of righteousness nevertheless have gone astray, as sheep having no shepherd, notwithstanding a shepherd hath called after you and is still calling after you, but ye will not hearken unto his voice! Behold, I say unto you, that the good shepherd doth call you; yea, and in his own name he doth call you, which is the name of Christ; and if ye will not hearken unto the voice of the good shepherd, to the name by which ye are called, behold, ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd. And now if ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd, of what fold are ye? Behold, I say unto you, that the devil is your shepherd, and ye are of his fold; and now, who can deny this? Behold, I say unto you, whosoever denieth this is a liar and a child of the devil. For I say unto you that whatsoever is good cometh from God, and whatsoever is evil cometh from the devil. Therefore, if a man bringeth forth good works he hearkeneth unto the voice of the good shepherd, and he doth follow him; but whosoever bringeth forth evil works, the same becometh a child of the devil, for he hearkeneth unto his voice, and doth follow him. And whosoever doeth this must receive his wages of him; therefore, for his wages he receiveth death, as to things pertaining unto righteousness, being dead unto all good works. And now, my brethren, I would that ye should hear me, for I speak in the energy of my soul; for behold, I have spoken unto you plainly that ye cannot err, or have spoken according to the commandments of God. For I am called to speak after this manner, according to the holy order of God, which is in Christ Jesus; yea, I am commanded to stand and testify unto this people the things which have been spoken by our fathers concerning the things which are to come. And this is not all. Do ye not suppose that I know of these things myself? Behold, I testify unto you that I do know that these things whereof I have spoken are true. And how do ye suppose that I know of their surety? Behold, I say unto you they are made known unto me by the Holy Spirit of God. Behold, I have fasted and prayed many days that I might know these things of myself. And now I do know of myself that they are true; for the Lord God hath made them manifest unto me by his Holy Spirit; and this is the spirit of revelation which is in me. And moreover, I say unto you that it has thus been revealed unto me, that the words which have been spoken by our fathers are true, even so according to the spirit of prophecy which is in me, which is also by the manifestation of the Spirit of God. I say unto you, that I know of myself that whatsoever I shall say unto you, concerning that which is to come, is true; and I say unto you, that I know that Jesus Christ shall come, yea, the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace, and mercy, and truth. And behold, it is he that cometh to take away the sins of the world, yea, the sins of every man who steadfastly believeth on his name. And now I say unto you that this is the order after which I am called, yea, to preach unto my beloved brethren, yea, and every one that dwelleth in the land; yea, to preach unto all, both old and young, both bond and free; yea, I say unto you the aged, and also the middle aged, and the rising generation; yea, to cry unto them that they must repent and be born again. Yea, thus saith the Spirit: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand; yea, the Son of God cometh in his glory, in his might, majesty, power, and dominion. Yea, my beloved brethren, I say unto you, that the Spirit saith: Behold the glory of the King of all the earth; and also the King of heaven shall very soon shine forth among all the children of men. And also the Spirit saith unto me, yea, crieth unto me with a mighty voice, saying: Go forth and say unto this peopleâ??Repent, for except ye repent ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of heaven."

Now can you deny these are the words of Jesus Christ? Is this the writings of a false prophet? Judge for yourself, you seem to think you are so good at putting yourself in other peoples shoes. Do you believe the things written in this quote? If so you have found your "common ground" what think ye?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Probably just my misconception here. When the issue of Salvation came up between my TBM wife and I, she seemed more concerned about exaltation and not necessarily about her Salvation. Did I misunderstand?

I think it is fair to say that exaltation inculdes salvation but salvation does not inculde exaltation.

Does that make sense. In other words you will recieve a greater reward by recieve exaltation.

You know the whole 3 levels to the CK. If recieves the highest level of the CK they will recieve exaltaion.

Salvation is just inherting the CK.

[Flyonthewall]

Where I got my LDS knowledge came from LDS people, and the number of people I talked to during my time in Utah. If it's misrepresented, it originates in one of your own misrepresenting it to me.

If you have posted on boards like this one, you will understand that LDS and non-LDS talk past each other all the time. An LDS will make a statement, a non-LDS will hear the words, but put a different understanding on it than the LDS person had to begin with.

It is apparent that you may have heard an LDS perspective from an LDS person, you still do not understand as an LDS does. You have your own stank(spin) you put on it to try and force it into your own interpetation of mormonism. This is why you will get a lot of comments here that you really are not understanding the LDS perspective even though you got your "knowledge" from an LDS person.

[Bytor]

So Brad, your saying that once you are "born-again" or "saved",.....you lose all desire to commit sin....immediately? And what if you do commit sin afterward.....burn forever? I thought that once you were saved by grace....you could never lose the salvation? I am fairly certain that is how the Southern Baptists believe........since I was once a Southern Baptist. I was "saved" and baptized......and still managed to do some things that I am fairly certain we could ALL agree were SIN. Did my sincere prayer not take? Thinking back and observing many who claimed to be "saved", I see that it didn't take for them either.

[mnn727]

OK, well let me word this way. A Protestant would look at it the same way as you could also say, "all manner of sin can be forgiven by those who have faith in Christ -- except for those who do not full faith in Him (i.e. Mormonism)"

That's just how Protestants view Mormonism. - Not to attack your religion or anything. -- We see --Mormonism as a religion that says yes, you need faith, yes, you need to be born again, but if you don't choose to do works, you're not going to heaven. -- Protestants (or atleast Baptists), say --that it is impossible to be born again and not be changed --. It is impossible to have genuine faith in Christ, and choose to be continually carnal.

I counted 9 errors in this one post

[Deborah]

What you are exhibiting is not knowledge from LDS people but rather LDS information filtered and interpreted through your twisted, narrow perspective, without an iota of effort to understand it. Your continued refusal on this thread to ignore attempts to correct your misconceptions, to brush them aside is very telling as to your motives.

This is what I was going to say. I think Brad is hearing what he wants to hear or expects to hear not what is actually being said.

[TJane]

Now, I understand you are going to disagree with everything I'm saying. That's no surprise. I just ask that you put yourself in my shoes.

But, we are already in your shoes. You are going to disagree with everything we say. That's no surprise.

Jane

[Reklaw]

If you can find me an informed, rational Latter-day Saint who actually believes that he or she will earn his or her salvation, even in part -- that God will somehow owe salvation to him or to her -- I'll be dazzled. I've never met one. And I've looked for one. For years.

I find it interesting that so many critics of the Church harp on this whole "earning salvation" ordeal. I've never received a response from such critics on Mosiah 2, in which King Benjamin explicitly states that we are "eternally indebted" to God and will be "forever and ever," therefore, "what have [we] to boast?"

No one likes that though. They would rather attack straw man positions.

How about it, Brad? Can we demand payment from someone we are "eternally indebted" to?

I also was recently having a "discussion" over at the beloved CARMS. We were debating eternal marriage and I simply said that it wasn't explicit in the Bible (IE "The Mormons are right: you can be married for all eternity"), but more so hinted at. The immediate response was whatever hints I saw were because of the "Mormon glasses." I hadn't even posted the hints. But the one objecting had already made his mind up. Based on your posts, you sound exactly the same way.

[Deborah]

"Believing" is not merely just accepting a statement of facts. It is trust. Putting your trust in Jesus Christ to save you.

Where do you get the idea that LDS don't put their trust in Christ. Your prejudices won't allow you to see what is basic in our faith and that is belief in and trust in Jesus Christ as our Savior and Redeemer.

I have never understood the argument, which has been made here before, that if you accept Jesus as your Savior but choose to do good works that you are damned, because the good works should come naturally and you shouldn't have to choose to do them, but if you are an EV then you aren't choosing to do them they are just spontaneous. A totally ciruclar and nonsensical argument.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

But, we are already in your shoes. You are going to disagree with everything we say. That's no surprise.

Jane

Awsome!!! This is the post of the day!

[Flyonthewall]

No, that would be to take away the power of the Gospel and the doctrine of Regeneration.

"Believing" is not merely just accepting a statement of facts. It is trust. Putting your trust in Jesus Christ to save you. It says in John 3 that you must be born again. What exactly happens when you're born again? You become dead to sin. In Romans 6, it says "How can we, who are dead to sin, still live in it"?

Please expand on this. It sounds like you are saying that once you are "born again", it is impossible to sin. Have you lived a perfect life since you were "born again"?

Once LDS are baptized, we make promises to take the name of Christ upon us. We may not desire to sin, but we make mistakes anyway.

Your old man is crucified with Christ. You no longer are a slave to sin, but a slave to righteousness. Can you genuinely be born again and then choose to do evil for the rest of your life? Absolutely not, according to what I believe. After talking to many LDS, they like the idea of free choice. They believe that you can be born again and choose to do evil. Let me word it this way: They are saying, you can be born again, have your old self be crucified with Christ, become a slave to righteousness, and still choose to be a slave to sin.

That doesn't compute with me.

When you are "born again", who changes? Do you think God takes away our ability to do wrong? Or is it that you choose to want to do good, and make choices towards that end?

The "believing" or "faith" you describe is as a puff of smoke. You may think you were "born again" and dead to sin, but if you make a mistake, you really weren't "born again" anyway because that just proves you weren't really dead to sin.

[clairc829]

This is what I was going to say. I think Brad is hearing what he wants to hear or expects to hear not what is actually being said.

Or to give him the benefit of doubt, he hears them through his understanding, which is not correct.

Having tried to understand the trinity concept, I can feel a little for Brad. New ideas sometimes take a while before we get a grasp of what is really being said. Sometimes we never get it right.

[Thunderfire]

Could you be specific about what's "shameful"?

This is a discussion board, where differences are argued. By its nature, the exchanges here will be a bit different than in a prayer service or in a choir rehearsal or when ladling out mashed potatoes at a soup kitchen.

Hello Dr. Peterson,

Forgive me if my comments came across as offensive, yet they were the feelings of my heart. Yes, I believe Brad came here with a combative agenda and perspective. It was easy to discern the wolf in sheeps clothing. But I fail my Lord when I too become that wolf.

I was taken in the "night visions" where I was standing shoulder to shoulder with the Lord. I experienced a depth of humility coming from him that will take me all eternity to fully grasp. I can choose to be like those in the world whose lips speak of him, yet their hearts are far away, or I can let the spirit of the Lord flow through me to the convincing of many of the true gospel message.

Yes, we can say this is a discussion board. We can use this as excuse for being like "them" in developing a combative spirit. We can do this and remain ordinary men. Or we can become extraordinary in Christ Jesus and discuss the mysteries of the kingdom. We can become extraordinary in our discussion where like Samuel the Lamanite, none of their stones or arrows will penetrate us, allowing us to share as Jesus shared.

Which is the better way to discuss our faith in Jesus? To discuss like those who only know concepts seen through a dark glass, or to share the light of Christ as it flows out through us to a world chained in darkness? Anyway, just the perspective of my comments!

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I have never understood the argument, which has been made here before, that if you accept Jesus as your Savior but choose to do good works that you are damned, because the good works should come naturally and you shouldn't have to choose to do them, but if you are an EV then you aren't choosing to do them they are just spontaneous. A totally ciruclar and nonsensical argument.

It is even more nuanced than that. What it is is that we would claim that we choose were they claim it just happens, but even if we are wrong and it really is just spontaneous or generated by God, that some how that beleif will get your thrown in hell.

[Obiwan]

OK, Bradâ?¦

Your letter suggests that you could only receive one answerâ?¦I am not surprised, that if you did pray you did not do so as directed in James 1: 5-7 suggestsâ?¦(Listed below)

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

You had no faith because of all the â??factsâ? which you have already received from sources that are designed to cast doubt, Therefore your faith â??didâ?? waiver. As a result you received by your own admission â??no answerâ?, and as James taught for those who â??waiverâ? â??â?¦let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lordâ? (Verse 7).

Therefore because you believe that you already have the answer then no other answer will do. I am not â??offendedâ? at your comments, but I am also not surprised at them.

Your list of scriptures were designed to give a sermon. The reasons you do not believe that JS was a Prophet are based of information you have from his life, and his weaknesses. Yet despite the many weaknesses of Biblical Prophets you do not question because you have faith in the Bible. God does and always has called upon weak and sinful men to carry out his purposes (and will again) because weak and sinful men are all he has to choose from. Your personality is one, much like Paulâ??s. You believe you have the truth and will act accordingly until something like a â??road to Damascusâ? event takes place in your life. I hope it will but it is unlikely. You seek all your information from sources that shade the facts of the history of the church. There is common ground between us, but tunnel vision does not permit you to see it.

We believe in doing goodâ?¦you believe in doing good

We believe in our causeâ?¦you believe in your cause

We love our familiesâ?¦you love your family

We want what is best for the worldâ?¦you want what is best for the world

We want salvationâ?¦you want salvation

We love Godâ?¦you love God

We worship Christ according to our understandingâ?¦you do the same.

We would lay down our lives as Americans for your freedom to believe as you doâ?¦I assume the same applies to you.

We believe in â??Salvation by Graceâ?â?¦you believe in â??Salvation by Graceâ?.

Nuff saidâ?¦

Thank you for your post.

Pa pa

This is a really good post which illistrates a very important point..... Faith preceeds the miracle.

Almost none of these people (anti-mormons) seek out true understanding in Faith when it concerns mormonism.

They delve into their anti-mormon preachers and then regurgitate those beliefs, read LDS stuff and then "wonder" they didn't receive the same answer as us. A cup already full cannot take anymore.

I mean I spent "years" in various religions before I started judgeing them some. Further, I then cleaned my slate (letting go of my judgements) and went back again to find out what was really true, and Mormonism was all that could qualify in every way.

Brad's story reminds me of another "christian" I knew. He was one however who didn't like organized religion, and was simply "Bible only". Well, when I shared the Gospel with him, and he on his own went to one of our Temples, and went and sat in the lobby, what do you think his "feelings" were? They were entirely based on his already held presumptions of organized religion. He felt "darkness" while sitting in the LDS Temple, critical of the opulance and the power of mormonism.

Anyway, the point is, is when someone is approaching something, and they judge it according to their already created presumptions and understanding, they are not going to understand it, and the "feelings" they get may not in fact be from God, but from themselves or you know who.

The spirit only elightens the minds of the trully faithful....

[Cold Steel]

One reason many Protestants can't find common ground with the LDS church is because how they view ancient Christianity and a strained exegesis of holy writ on their parts. This is largely because, in their own quest for legitimacy, Protestants have had to made some major tweaks in how they view authority in the ministry, revelation, the efficacy of baptism and repentance (together) in the remission of sins, as well as how a wayward church can be set right.

Having no claim to a chain of authority, Protestants have had to assume it. They read the New Testament epistles as being written to them, with no thought of how priesthood, ordinations, church government and authority work. Their claim to a "priesthood of believers" is necessarily weak, but it's the only thing they have. Also, out of necessity, they are forced to assume that the church can be repaired with nothing but good intentions.

The LDS faith is not "another gospel." There may be parts that the Catholics and Protestants don't like, but they cannot prove that any part of the restored gospel is at odds with the first century gospel. They may find parts that cannot be proven by the New Testament scriptures, and we admit as much, but they cannot say that what we believe contradicts anything but their understanding of the ancient gospel. And that's where the rub is.

The Restoration wins, in my view, by default. You look at the ancient church and what do you see? A quorum of twelve apostles, seventy, bishops, teachers, priests, evangelists (patriarchs), prophets like Agabus, no set canon of scripture, no creeds, ongoing revelation, a top-down organization where men are called of God "as was Aaron" (and that, by the way, requires a hierarchical structure). What other church even remotely appears to be the same?

Modern day Catholics and Protestants have far more in common with the Jews of Jesus' day than the church of Christ. The Jews were so entrenched in the culture and tradition of their day that they found Christ repulsive and blasphemous. He, like the Latter-day Saints, threatened the power structures which were already established. In short, the Jews were not structured in such a way that they could accept new revelation and apostles (sent ones). They had their canonized scripture, they had their creeds, or rabbinical writings, and were in an exclusive mode.

Why do modern Christians have creeds and canonized scriptures? As a practical means, mostly. With all the false prophets and claims and counter claims, they had to draw the line and come up with something they could all agree upon. Otherwise you'd have some churches believing in some things and some in others. It would be a mess. Better to draw the line and have everyone agree to the basics. But in doing this, they also limit God.

Do Christians believe they have a perfect knowledge of all things, or that all things have been revealed? If so, they're very foolish, and if not, do they really think that some of the things not yet revealed won't clash with their imperfect understandings?

There's only one church today that matches the ancient church, and that church is the LDS faith. It was organized just when the prophet Daniel said it would be (see Daniel 2) and it has steadily grown and flourished just as it's young prophet (and the Book of Mormon prophets) prophesied in 1830, when the entire church could have fit in a telephone booth. I mean, imagine the audacity of envisioning the church as a world church back then, one that would grow until it filled the Earth. Yet it continues to grow and prosper just as prophesied.

So yes, the Protestants can claim the LDS teach "another gospel" and say that Moroni was the "angel of light" that Paul warned against. All very convenient, and all very much like the Jews who felt threatened by Christ in the Meridian of Time. Blasphemy, evil spirits, wine bibber, occult. Just the other day I heard a minister or priest on the History Channel refer to the Second Coming of Christ as the time when Jesus will come again, and "this time he'll get it right," as though he had failed the first time. So we all pay our monies and we all make our choice. I still say the LDS faith wins by default. There's not another church on Earth that matches the early church as closely as this one. If I'm wrong, show me one. And remember, it must have apostles, no creeds, no limited canonization of scriptures, revelation, the gifts of the spirit and a top-down structure wherein men may be called to the ministry as was done in ancient times.

[ACW]

Where I got my LDS knowledge came from LDS people, and the number of people I talked to during my time in Utah. If it's misrepresented, it originates in one of your own misrepresenting it to me.

I think you are being a little disingenuous here. I believe you got most of your knowledge from Kingdom of the Cults and other such books.

And where did you get this quote:

Brigham Young said it himself, anyone who rejects Joseph Smith and his teachings is damned. Not because you worship him, but because you believe his teachings are absolutely necessary for salvation.

Did you actually read all the writings of Brigham Young and stopped reading when you found this?

So, your not willing to find common ground with the LDS faith is based on this "quote" only???

That way, we have no part in our salvation at all.

Yes they do, Christians have to have chosen to be saved....if not, they are not saved and therefore...

I mean that I wish that the people here would not get mad, but only merely understand why I believe what I believe.

Some of us do understand what you believe....and still disagree with you!

That's just how Protestants view Mormonism. Not to attack your religion or anything. We see Mormonism as a religion that says yes, you need faith, yes, you need to be born again, but if you don't choose to do works, you're not going to heaven. Protestants (or atleast Baptists), say that it is impossible to be born again and not be changed. It is impossible to have genuine faith in Christ, and choose to be continually carnal.

Not all Protestants and besides this is such a skewed view of Mormonism and shows such a lack of true understanding of the faith.

[Daniel Peterson]

I can choose to be like those in the world whose lips speak of him, yet their hearts are far away, or I can let the spirit of the Lord flow through me to the convincing of many of the true gospel message.

I entirely agree that we ought to, yet often don't, maintain the spirit and stance of disciples of Christ in our conversations.

Yet it must also be said that both Christ and his apostles, according to the New Testament record, could be pretty rough, verbally, in their responses to those who rejected the gospel.

Yes, we can say this is a discussion board. We can use this as excuse for being like "them" in developing a combative spirit. We can do this and remain ordinary men. Or we can become extraordinary in Christ Jesus and discuss the mysteries of the kingdom.

I, for one, absolutely will not discuss the mysteries of the kingdom on a message board.

We can become extraordinary in our discussion where like Samuel the Lamanite, none of their stones or arrows will penetrate us, allowing us to share as Jesus shared.

Which is the better way to discuss our faith in Jesus? To discuss like those who only know concepts seen through a dark glass, or to share the light of Christ as it flows out through us to a world chained in darkness? Anyway, just the perspective of my comments!

I honestly think that it depends upon the circumstances. In preaching the gospel, we should, insofar as it's within our capacity, be full of the Spirit and of love. When somebody misrepresents the facts, though, it isn't sinful or wrong to point that out, straightforwardly and unambiguously.

But we should always be self-aware, and always sensitive to our moral duty and to the dictates of the Spirit. No question about that.

I would have appreciated some specific examples of what you regard as wrong on this thread. Otherwise, it might seem that you're simply opposed to contradicting, or arguing with, a critic. I hope that's not the case. If it is, though, it would be a little bit like showing up at Dodger Stadium and then objecting that they're playing baseball out on the field, rather than basketball.

[Brad]

So Brad, your saying that once you are "born-again" or "saved",.....you lose all desire to commit sin....immediately? And what if you do commit sin afterward.....burn forever? I thought that once you were saved by grace....you could never lose the salvation? I am fairly certain that is how the Southern Baptists believe........since I was once a Southern Baptist. I was "saved" and baptized......and still managed to do some things that I am fairly certain we could ALL agree were SIN. Did my sincere prayer not take? Thinking back and observing many who claimed to be "saved", I see that it didn't take for them either.

No, I'm not saying that once you're born again you stop sinning completely. 1 John 1 talks about that...saying that if we say we have no sin, we are liars and the truth is not in us. But the point is you become a slave to righteousness, and it will be impossible to continually live in your sin. And yes, we do believe that you can't lose your salvation. However, if you see someone who professes Jesus as Lord, and yet it is obvious they are still a slave to sin, then they don't really have faith to begin with.

Also, I was doing some thinking on my way home, and I remember how I said how Protestants should want to convert LDS to Protestantism, just as LDS desire to convert Protestants to Mormonism. I'll have to retract that. I'll have to admit, there are a lot of people in Protestant churches today who aren't truly saved. They desire to take advantage of the grace given to them, thinking, "Oh, it's all grace? Let's just keep on sinning, and God will forgive us!" To which Paul exclaimed, "May it never be! How shall we who died to sin, still live in it?"

So my goal here is to not "convert" any LDS so that they become good Baptists, and so on. That would be pointless. I just am looking to share what I believe God has revealed to me in the Scriptures as the true Gospel, and anyone who believes it can know that they are saved, whether they go to a Baptist church, Methodist, Catholic, LDS, etc.

So I suggest we get back to the root of the problem. This is what I believe to be the true Gospel:

When the Phillipian jailer asked, "Sirs, what must I do to have eternal life?" Paul told him, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved". (Acts 16)

So...believe. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

And what exactly is faith? Well here's the definition I got off of an LDS website: "Faith is to hope for things which are not seen, but which are true (Heb. 11: 1; Alma 32: 21), and must be centered in Jesus Christ in order to produce salvation. To have faith is to have confidence in something or someone."

And just what exactly are we trusting Jesus to do for us? To save us from our sin. We are trusting Jesus to save us, and to give us a second birth. As I've said before, in John 3 Jesus said in order to have eternal life, you must be born again. Romans 6:6-7 says, "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin."

Our old self was crucified with Christ Jesus. We can no longer be continually carnal, or else what type of faith is that? It would be like saying, "I have confidence Jesus defeated my sin, yet I love my sin! I'm gonna keep on sinning."

I believe that genuine faith produces good works, but it is not of ourselves. "For by grace are ye saved through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:8-10)

It is impossible to be born again and still be a slave to sin. God made you a new creature. If you don't become a new creature, then you never were born again! When you say after you are born again, you can choose to still live a life full of sin, it just doesn't compute. Paul said, "How can we, who are dead to sin, still live in it?" (Romans 6:2). Again, this isn't to say that we stop sinning altogether, but we know that our new nature causes us to naturally want to keep God's commandments.

That's the way I see it. We are justified by our faith alone (Romans 3:23-28). And I also believe that anyone who is truly born again can not have their new self die again, and revert back to their dead man. This is the security of the believer, like it says in John 10:26-29: "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

So yes, I guess you could say I've had a change of heart. If anyone can agree with this, then yes, I would say we have some common ground.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

No, I'm not saying that once you're born again you stop sinning completely. 1 John 1 talks about that...saying that if we say we have no sin, we are liars and the truth is not in us. But the point is you become a slave to righteousness, and it will be impossible to continually live in your sin. And yes, we do believe that you can't lose your salvation. However, if you see someone who professes Jesus as Lord, and yet it is obvious they are still a slave to sin, then they don't really have faith to begin with.

So yes, I guess you could say I've had a change of heart. If anyone can agree with this, then yes, I would say we have some common ground.

It sounded like you were saying that, thanks for clarifing your position.

It sounds to me that you are sayign then that the LDS "live in sin". How are the LDS living in sin?

Do you believe that the LDS people are people whoe "professes Jesus as Lord, and yet it is obvious they are still a slave to sin"? What does it mean to be a slave to sin?

BTW I think we have muc that is in common, more than you would think.

Also, I was doing some thinking on my way home, and I remember how I said how Protestants should want to convert LDS to Protestantism, just as LDS desire to convert Protestants to Mormonism. I'll have to retract that. I'll have to admit, there are a lot of people in Protestant churches today who aren't truly saved. They desire to take advantage of the grace given to them, thinking, "Oh, it's all grace? Let's just keep on sinning, and God will forgive us!" To which Paul exclaimed, "May it never be! How shall we who died to sin, still live in it?"

Sounds good to me.

So my goal here is to not "convert" any LDS so that they become good Baptists, and so on. That would be pointless. I just am looking to share what I believe God has revealed to me in the Scriptures as the true Gospel, and anyone who believes it can know that they are saved, whether they go to a Baptist church, Methodist, Catholic, LDS, etc.

Ok that is a great way to look at it.

So I suggest we get back to the root of the problem. This is what I believe to be the true Gospel:

When the Phillipian jailer asked, "Sirs, what must I do to have eternal life?" Paul told him, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved". (Acts 16)

So...believe. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

Christ also claimed that one guy should "go and sell all that he posses and come and follow Him".

He also stated that "not every one that saith Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven but he that doeth the will of the Father". Belief is the mere first step to it all not that last.

And what exactly is faith? Well here's the definition I got off of an LDS website: "Faith is to hope for things which are not seen, but which are true (Heb. 11: 1; Alma 32: 21), and must be centered in Jesus Christ in order to produce salvation. To have faith is to have confidence in something or someone."

This is good LDS doctrine.

And just what exactly are we trusting Jesus to do for us? To save us from our sin. We are trusting Jesus to save us, and to give us a second birth. As I've said before, in John 3 Jesus said in order to have eternal life, you must be born again. Romans 6:6-7 says, "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin."

No LDS deny this teaching.

Our old self was crucified with Christ Jesus. We can no longer be continually carnal, or else what type of faith is that? It would be like saying, "I have confidence Jesus defeated my sin, yet I love my sin! I'm gonna keep on sinning."

Again No LDS would deny this teaching.

I believe that genuine faith produces good works, but it is not of ourselves. "For by grace are ye saved through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:8-10).

This is good LDS doctrine too, as you works by themsleves cannot save you lest any man boast.

It is impossible to be born again and still be a slave to sin. God made you a new creature. If you don't become a new creature, then you never were born again! When you say after you are born again, you can choose to still live a life full of sin, it just doesn't compute. Paul said, "How can we, who are dead to sin, still live in it?" (Romans 6:2). Again, this isn't to say that we stop sinning altogether, but we know that our new nature causes us to naturally want to keep God's commandments.

Awsome, all LDS beleive this. It is taught beautifully in the BoM.

That's the way I see it. We are justified by our faith alone (Romans 3:23-28).

Is justification the same as salvation?

You know faith with out works is dead and all that.

And I also believe that anyone who is truly born again can not have their new self die again, and revert back to their dead man.

Um- huh? You mean they don't have a choice any more? If I confess Jesus and truely believe it, I can't in the future make a choice to not believe it any more? Would I still be saved if I did. Say I went on a killing spree?

This is the security of the believer, like it says in John 10:26-29: "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Notice that is says "they follow me" what if at some point I stop following Jesus? Do you believe that I don't have a choice after I confess Jesus?

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

God can let go if He chooses. God would let go if you did not follow the master.