A Protestant's perspective on why we won't find common ground with LDS

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Sigh. I missed this one yesterday:

So you choose to make no attempt to find any common ground with millions of Latter-day Saints.

How admirable.

I think this is the same approach to religious difference that they've traditionally followed in the Balkans, in Northern Ireland, and in parts of the Middle East.

Awsome.

[Ceeboo]

Thought I would offer my opinion on something, just in case any of you were the slightest bit interested in it ( Hey Cold Steel. notice the use of " my opinion " LOL !!!)

Is this thread an example of the " rule " or simply an exception to the " rule " and does it speak volumes to us all ?? In my humble opinion, it is indeed the rule and speaks volumes in large measure.

While many of us attempt to share our beliefs with eachother, I can't help but suggest that it is greatly diminished and at times completly trumped by the enormous amount of bias, prejudice, and " self proclaimed truth " that we ALL ( Ceeboo included ) force on and bring to the table.

I do not know what the answers to these " blockers " are but I for one, am saddened by the loss of opportunity to benefit ALL of us in trying to walk this Earth together.

Anyhow, just thought I would add my own bias flavored 2 cents.

What say you??

Peace,

Ceeboo

[Gervin]

Yes

Only Moroni 10:3-7 of which she was quite dubious.

Though some seekers may be unsure about Moroniâ??s promise, the concrete act of applying the promise isnâ??t done in a vacuum of doubt; there is an expectation that an affirmative feeling, sign, or emotion can â?? or should â?? result from making the request. I say should because, as far as I know, no one in the LDS Church acknowledges that the prayer can rightfully result in the answer that the Book of Mormon is false; those that claim this response are typically characterized as unworthy, insincere, unlearned, or just plain liars (apostates).

Your daughter-in-laws statement that â??if you don't want to know the answer you had better not ask the questionâ? seems to indicate that the answer flows from simply asking the question (i.e., praying the prayer). If the method for discerning the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon is dubious then the test isnâ??t Moroniâ??s prayer (unless you agree itâ??s possible that the Book could be false â?? see above). Itâ??s testing the truthfulness of the method.

Iâ??ll soften my initial statement to say that she received the answer that her heart was prepared to accept. However, it remains obvious that invoking Moroniâ??s prayer â?? with whatever doubts or concerns one has about its efficacy â?? is to acknowledge the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon regardless of the answer to that prayer; one accepts the words of Moroni in the Book of Mormon to discern if the words of Moroni and the Book of Mormon are true. Itâ??s self-fulfilling. Except when itâ??s not, and in those cases the problem lies with the heart of the one asking the question. This really puts Truth in a precarious position.

[Lance in TX]

Imagine this dialogue:

Protestant: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Rely on him alone for eternal life."

Potential Convert: "That's what I do. I simply reject the writings of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, James, Jude, and Paul."

Protestant: "That's fine! You're saved!"

Believable?

Love it!

[Lance in TX]

ElRayR, all manner of sin can be forgive those who have faith in Christ -- except the sin of being Mormon.

No work beyond accepting Christ is required of Christians -- except the work of rejecting Mormonism.

This does seem to be the way that Hoops and Brad feel.

[Lance in TX]

We simply do not believe in dark ages folklore about vengeful ogres in the sky.

There are no vengeful ogres in the sky?? Really??

[ACW]

Thought I would offer my opinion on something, just in case any of you were the slightest bit interested in it ( Hey Cold Steel. notice the use of " my opinion " LOL !!!)

Is this thread an example of the " rule " or simply an exception to the " rule " and does it speak volumes to us all ?? In my humble opinion, it is indeed the rule and speaks volumes in large measure.

While many of us attempt to share our beliefs with eachother, I can't help but suggest that it is greatly diminished and at times completly trumped by the enormous amount of bias, prejudice, and " self proclaimed truth " that we ALL ( Ceeboo included ) force on and bring to the table.

I do not know what the answers to these " blockers " are but I for one, am saddened by the loss of opportunity to benefit ALL of us in trying to walk this Earth together.

Anyhow, just thought I would add my own bias flavored 2 cents.

What say you??

Peace,

Ceeboo

Hi ceeboo

Just how exactly do we do this...you know have open discussions without the bias, prejudice, and "self proclaimed truth"?

I attended a Christian bible study to learn...and was criticized for it: Post #38

As has been pointed out here, finding common ground need not entail embracing another's religious faith. It is merely identifying points of agreement.

So I am at a loss as to how to do proceed.

[volgadon]

Sigh. I missed this one yesterday:

So you choose to make no attempt to find any common ground with millions of Latter-day Saints.

How admirable.

I think this is the same approach to religious difference that they've traditionally followed in the Balkans, in Northern Ireland, and in parts of the Middle East.

In southern Samaria there is a small shrine dedicated to Job.

Local legend has it that after having his children die, losing everything and being smitten with leprosy, Job's only comfort was his gorgeous wifem whose long, dark hair was the envy of all. It was so long and luxurious that it reached her ankles.

The wife of the village chief in Deir-Amer wanted the hair for herself, but Job refused to sell.

One day, the money ran out. Job's wife decided to sell her hair to that woman and recieved a handsome sum for it.

Job came home, surprisd to see all sorts of food on the table. He asked his wife where the food came from, and when she removed her headdress, Job burst out in tears. She cried too, but when Job's tears fell on her head, the hair grow back as before.

The shrine commemorates that miracle.

In 1980, the person who collected this legend gave a lecture at the spot. Someone from the neighbouring village stood up and said that the story was true. He had been bald but washed in the spring and now had a full head of hair. Not only that, but his village had never forgiven the people of Deir-Amar for that insult to the prophet Job and the day would come when they would settle that score....

Not sure why I brought this up, but I'm sure it has some application.

[Ceeboo]

Hi ceeboo

Just how exactly do we do this...you know have open discussions without the bias, prejudice, and "self proclaimed truth"?

I attended a Christian bible study to learn...and was criticized for it: Post #38

So I am at a loss as to how to do proceed.

Hi back ACW,

As I stated in my last post, I have no idea how to do this ( I sincerly wish I knew as it is my humble opinion that if we ALL could just get out of our own way, even for a few moments, it might lead to ENORMOUS mutual benefit for all.)

Another thing I was thinking about is what do you imagine " Non Christians " or " Non believers " might be thinking as they silently observe us " Christains " perform on these stages???? Hmmmmmm???

I wish I had the/some answers but if you have any ideas, Catholic Ceeboo is all ears.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[Lance in TX]

Protestants (or atleast Baptists), say that it is impossible to be born again and not be changed. It is impossible to have genuine faith in Christ, and choose to be continually carnal.

If that is what you truely believe, then I know a WHOLE LOT of Baptists and other Protestants that do not have genuine faith in Christ and by your definition will BURN IN HELL

I have a question.. What do you do during the Sabbath day? Do you keep ALL of the Commandments 100% perfect? If not, then you are SINNING and that means you don't have "genuine faith in Christ" as you say..

I know entire "Christian" Churches that "Keep the Sabbath day Holy" (4th Commandment, unless you are Catholic or Lutheran then it is the 3rd) by going to Church in the morning, then go to the local lake and ski and swim and party all the rest of the day. I left the Catholic Church that my stepmother was a member of because of the behaviour of the members after Church on Sunday..

Also, how about going to Church on Sunday morning then going out to Sunday brunches??

Exodus 2:8-11

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it bholy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the abbath day, and hallowed it.

It says you should not make anyone do work for you on the Sabbath. I am not perfect, but we (as a family) try to never have others do work for us. We don't go out, don't go to movies, don't go to malls, don't go to the lake, etc.. We stay at home after Church, study, and try to learn more. Sometimes I watch some TV, but that is my failing and I try to not do that.

[Lance in TX]

Where I got my LDS knowledge came from LDS people, and the number of people I talked to during my time in Utah. If it's misrepresented, it originates in one of your own misrepresenting it to me.

It is also possible that you are interpreting what is being said by filtering it through your Lutheran (? from what I have read?) ideas and not really understanding what is being said.

One of the biggest problems that LDS and Non-LDS people have is the use of words that mean, slightly or greatly, different things depending on who you are talking to.

As examples: Being Saved, Having Eternal Life, Exaltation, Trinity vs. Godhead

[Lance in TX]

Probably just my misconception here. When the issue of Salvation came up between my TBM wife and I, she seemed more concerned about exaltation and not necessarily about her Salvation. Did I misunderstand?

That might be because we believe they are two separate things.

Salvation: Having our Soul and Body brought back together. Having an eternal body. Being resurrected. Everyone gets this because Christ gave his life. EVERYONE that has a body will have Salvation.

Exaltation: Living in the presense of Our Heavenly Father (God), i.e. being in the Celestial Kingdom.

Does this help explain why she might feel this way?

[Reklaw]

That might be because we believe they are two separate things.

Salvation: Having our Soul and Body brought back together. Having an eternal body. Being resurrected. Everyone gets this because Christ gave his life. EVERYONE that has a body will have Salvation.

Exaltation: Living in the presense of Our Heavenly Father (God), i.e. being in the Celestial Kingdom.

Does this help explain why she might feel this way?

Either that or they are often seen as synonymous:

"If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation." (D&C 6:13)

"And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life (IE exaltation), which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God."(D&C 14:7)

[Cold Steel]

According to the New Testament, salvation and exaltation are essentially the same thing. In a sense, all men receive salvation from the sin of Adam that resulted in mortality. Exaltation is what the writers of the New Testament referred to by "salvation." Just two different terms.

All will be resurrected, but relatively few will be exalted. This is all on a current thread somewhere, so no need to rehash it here.

[Lance in TX]

Either that or they are often seen as synonymous:

That is true. They are often seen by LDS as being synonymous because that is the direction most LDS are looking towards: exaltation.

That is also how many non-LDS see them, because for them it is all or nothing. There is no separation of states like there is in LDS doctrine. You either are with God or you are burning in hell (glad I don't even believe in hell as they do!)

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]

Another thing I was thinking about is what do you imagine " Non Christians " or " Non believers " might be thinking as they silently observe us " Christains " perform on these stages???? Hmmmmmm???

[...]

I imagine that non-believers are thinking the same thing watching the Christians argue as they do when watching two people argue whether a level 37 Ogre can beat a level 39 Paladin.

[structurecop]

I imagine that non-believers are thinking the same thing watching the Christians argue as they do when watching two people argue whether a level 37 Ogre can beat a level 39 Paladin.

Some non-believers might wonder why someone would refer to themselves as "Christains." Is that similar to stigmata?

[Doctor Steuss]

Some non-believers might wonder why someone would refer to themselves as "Christains." Is that similar to stigmata?

I think I recall Billy Mays talking about "Christains" once... or maybe it was Father Vic.

*Shrug*

[edited to correct inevitable spelling errors that result from attempts to give proper retort to SC's brilliance]

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

According to the New Testament, salvation and exaltation are essentially the same thing. In a sense, all men receive salvation from the sin of Adam that resulted in mortality. Exaltation is what the writers of the New Testament referred to by "salvation." Just two different terms.

All will be resurrected, but relatively few will be exalted. This is all on a current thread somewhere, so no need to rehash it here.

Yes it is the one with Markk and myself, apparently I don't understand LDS theology amd neither do you, as I stated almost the same think as you.

That thread is called "are you saved".

[structurecop]

I think I recall Billy Mays talking about "Christains" once... or maybe it was Father Vic.

*Shrug*

[edited to correct inevitable spelling errors that result from attempts to give proper retort to SC's brilliance]

No, no, my friend -- you are the "Brilliant!" one here!

Wow. Just wow.

[ERayR]

Though some seekers may be unsure about Moroniâ??s promise, the concrete act of applying the promise isnâ??t done in a vacuum of doubt; there is an expectation that an affirmative feeling, sign, or emotion can â?? or should â?? result from making the request. I say should because, as far as I know, no one in the LDS Church acknowledges that the prayer can rightfully result in the answer that the Book of Mormon is false; those that claim this response are typically characterized as unworthy, insincere, unlearned, or just plain liars (apostates).

Your daughter-in-laws statement that â??if you don't want to know the answer you had better not ask the questionâ? seems to indicate that the answer flows from simply asking the question (i.e., praying the prayer). If the method for discerning the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon is dubious then the test isnâ??t Moroniâ??s prayer (unless you agree itâ??s possible that the Book could be false â?? see above). Itâ??s testing the truthfulness of the method.

Iâ??ll soften my initial statement to say that she received the answer that her heart was prepared to accept. However, it remains obvious that invoking Moroniâ??s prayer â?? with whatever doubts or concerns one has about its efficacy â?? is to acknowledge the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon regardless of the answer to that prayer; one accepts the words of Moroni in the Book of Mormon to discern if the words of Moroni and the Book of Mormon are true. Itâ??s self-fulfilling. Except when itâ??s not, and in those cases the problem lies with the heart of the one asking the question. This really puts Truth in a precarious position.

No what it means (to her at least) is that she got an answer that was entirely different than what she had expected or wanted to hear. That once she had gotten the answer she had to act on it because she no longer had an excuse for not acting.

It is very nice that you think you can dismiss someone elses experiences away without even meeting them. What puts truth in a precaarious position is your arrogance in assuming you can. In assuming they didn't/don't/can't know and interpret their own experiences. That attitude seems to be prevelant with those who are unable to receive such experiences and fulfilment in their own lives so must cavelierly dismiss others who do.

I am sorry that your life is so unfullfilling that you must go to such lengths do dismiss others who don't have the problems you do.

[Gervin]

I'm not sure you even understand my point since your response to my post doesn't engage any of my points but instead puts words in my mouth and makes personal judgements. Didn't mean to get you riled.

[Hoops22]

non-LDS challengers too often get even when being polite and sincere.

Don't forget those of us who are not polite and sincere.

[ACW]

Hi back ACW,

As I stated in my last post, I have no idea how to do this ( I sincerly wish I knew as it is my humble opinion that if we ALL could just get out of our own way, even for a few moments, it might lead to ENORMOUS mutual benefit for all.)

Another thing I was thinking about is what do you imagine " Non Christians " or " Non believers " might be thinking as they silently observe us " Christains " perform on these stages???? Hmmmmmm???

I wish I had the/some answers but if you have any ideas, Catholic Ceeboo is all ears.

Peace,

Ceeboo

At least those who post here are allowed to have their say. That's more than I can say for Crosswalk.com, they consider the LDS Church to be a false religion. They are mean and mean spirited over there and post their skewed version of Mormonism and cheer each other on. Many LDS have been banned trying to defend our faith.

I think it is refreshing that Brad and others can come here and post and the LDS members have some recourse to their misinformed accusations...what I find amusing is they come here and say they are doing it out of sincere Christian love when all they want to do is dump their seminar garbage.

I've had to work on my attitude lately. Proverbs seems to be a great self help book. Prov. 13:10 "Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom". and 14:29 "He that is slow to wrath is of great understanding: but he that is hasty of spirit exalteth folly".

[Brad]

Hi Brad,

Welcome to MADB!!

I appreciate your forthrightness and conviction. Hopefully you'll stick around for a bit.

Seems you have your table full, trying to keep up with responses on this thread. However, if you have the time and proclivity to answer, I'd like to ask you something.

Do you think it is possible for man to build a wall of false doctrine that the Holy Spirit cannot penetrate?

IOW, do you believe all LDS are doomed and damned to hell if they do not leave their beliefs, or is it possible they can be saved within them?

Respectfully,

Mudcat

Hey Mudcat,

thanks for the kind words. Indeed, I have seemed to stir up a bit of a mess here. Perhaps I haven't always said everything always in the right way.

Anyways, in response to your question, I do not think it is possible for the Holy Spirit to be unable to do something...or anything. Certainly, if God wants a man to be saved, He will carry out His will. Just look at the Apostle Paul....he was killing Christians. It took him having to be knocked off his horse...Jesus intervened and put him on the right track. One part of my theology that I believe differs from many LDS is the idea of election. I believe that man is totally depraved.... men love their sin, have no idea how engraved they are in it (does a fish know that he's wet?), and do not want to come to God. Men are like the dry, dead bones talked about in Ezekiel. It is only by the power of the Almighty God that those bones are commanded to become men. I know LDS like to stress free will, and I would agree with that to some certain extent, however, look at the example given when Pontius Pilate was talking to Jesus. Jesus told him, "You have no power that was not given to you from above." It definitely feels like we have a free will, but ultimately, God created us, and every decision we make has to be made in the context of His omniscience.

In response to whether I believe that all LDS are doomed, I will conclude that I do not have the power or the right to say so. I will say, however, that I look at the LDS church (and many Protestant churches alike), and I see a great deal of "religion". Religion, however, is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. What religion has become today is a set of rules that everyone has to do to get God to love you (no one will admit this, but actions speak louder than words). This is what we call the "De-churched". You'll get a lot of people doing everything they're supposed to, so that God will love them. They're missing it though. That's not the Gospel. The Gospel teaches that NO ONE is righteous! God doesn't look down and see good people and bad people, He only sees bad people. If it were an old western movie, we'd all be wearing black hats. Jesus is the only one who was righteous....and it is only by His atonement that we can be made perfect in the sight of God. That's why I don't like to say that good works are necessary for salvation. They aren't your good works....they were created unto you because of your new birth....because Christ killed your old man and gave you a new heart. I believe it was the Pharisees who took pride in their good works, and felt that they were better than the people who weren't doing what they were doing. That's what worries me the most about religion, is when people put their faith in their Church, and not the saving power of Jesus Christ. They think, "Okay, I just need to do everything that my church tells me to do, and God will let me into Heaven." I've heard it put this way before, and I really like it....When you don't get the gospel right, men and women will become conformed to a pattern of religion and morality, yet they are not transformed by the Holy Spirit! Without the Gospel, you INOCULATE people to Jesus Christ. You give them just enough of Him to never know Him (just like it talks about in Matt. 7:21-23!)

Hope that helps!