A Protestant's perspective on why we won't find common ground with LDS

[Brad]

Did God just not want to save Judas strongly enough?

I thought God is love and no respecter of persons.

If one isn't saved, then wouldn't it be God's fault, he obviously didn't want to save that person.

Religion, in the original Latin, means reverence towards God. Is that wrong?

Who are you to judge if someone is doing works for their own sakes or out of love for the Lord.

Surely you aren't claiming that we shouldn't do works.

If not, then I don't know what you want.

We agree with the concept of depravity, for the most part. It is even taught in the BoM (mortal man an enemy to God), but total depravity, that a man is born depraved and is inherently evil, is a false doctrine.

This is a valid point...I'll have to say that I don't know. I'm not quite sure how God works, ya know? I believe that God is all knowing, yet I believe he is not willing that any should perish (2 Peter). I think this is a good passage though, maybe it'll help a bit:

Romans 8:28-30: "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

I would never say that it would be God's fault for someone to be unsaved though. The problem lies in the fact that we are all sinners, and detestable in the sight of God without the atonement of Jesus Christ. If life was fair, we would all be in hell. Luckily our God is merciful!!

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

This is a valid point...I'll have to say that I don't know. I'm not quite sure how God works, ya know? I believe that God is all knowing, yet I believe he is not willing that any should perish (2 Peter). I think this is a good passage though, maybe it'll help a bit:

Romans 8:28-30: "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

I would never say that it would be God's fault for someone to be unsaved though. The problem lies in the fact that we are all sinners, and detestable in the sight of God without the atonement of Jesus Christ. If life was fair, we would all be in hell. Luckily our God is merciful!!

See that is just it, your theology falls apart the second we mention Judas, There is no such thing as "Eternal Security" Or once saved always saved.

Any I don't care to debate that. Apparently you feel that we mormons are not saved? On what grounds do you suppose that? We all have faith in Christ and trust him 100%, and we show that trust by doing what he asks us.

[Brenda]

Well, it's been about a month since I've last consistently posted on the board - I've been in Utah without a computer. Just got back to Texas this past Friday.

Anyways, during my time in Utah, I got the chance to have a two hour conversation with Steven Page, the Director of the Institute of Religion at Weber State University (and a devout LDS). We had a really good talk, and discussed many of the differences between LDS and Protestants, and he really emphasized how LDS are trying to find common ground with Protestants. This really made me think, and it caused me to come up with why I, as a protestant, can not find common ground with the LDS...and I would like to add that I am saying this in a respectful, loving way. I am not attacking any of you, or being what you call "Anti-mormon"...I am only merely wanting to give you a Protestant's point of view on the issue, and I only ask that you read it objectively and try to put yourself in a Protestant's shoes. I know you disagree with me already, I only want you to see my perspective on the topic.

Point blank, we do not believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet, just because of all the evidence and suspicions that stack up against him. And when I pray to God with a sincere heart, I am not given that "feeling of truth/burning in the bosom" that you talk about, but I am left with a horrible feeling that I have just read the words of a false prophet. No offense, but if I did think he was a true prophet, there would be no reason for me to not be LDS myself. Given this, if he is not a true prophet, he falls under the category of a false prophet. And what is the offense of a false prophet given in the Bible? Well, look at Galatians 1:6-8: "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

and also in Ezekiel 13:1-9: "1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD;

3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!

4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.

5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.

6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.

7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?

8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD.

9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD."

So, looking at this, let's just say (hypothetically for you LDS out there), that Joseph Smith indeed IS a false prophet. Just for the sake of putting yourself in a protestant's position. After reading these verses, do you think God would be happy with us for not rebuking a false prophet when we see one? We have to, out of sheer conscience. That is why we feel the need to witness to LDS, not because we hate you all, but because we love you, and just want to see you in heaven with us and the Heavenly Father one day.

Thanks for reading, I hope my words don't offend, but only merely give you all another perspective.

-Brad

Brad, obviously this thread has been discussed plenty, but I just read it and have to respond to your OP. Your title is very telling. "Why we WON'T find common ground". You didn't say CAN'T, you said WON'T. Then you go on to list our differences. It seems that you missed the entire point of the conversation you had with Mr. Page.

Do you see NO common ground? Do you not see any Christian charity? Do you not see people who want to promote honesty, integrity, family values, etc. in our society? Do you not see a reverence for God, and a respect for all of his creations? Do you not see the effort to honor the Ten Commandments, the Beatitudes, the Golden Rule and the two greatest commandments stated by Christ?

I don't agree with all that you believe, but I can easily see common ground between us. Maybe that's because I am willing to see it.

[Bytor]

Please use scripture to back up your accusations. Opinion is only that, an opinion.....and has no bearing on truth.

Check out Romans 3:10-18:

"10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17And the way of peace have they not known:

18There is no fear of God before their eyes."

You may think you are a good person here on this earth when you compare yourself to everyone else, but quite frankly, without Jesus, you wouldn't be anything other than a God-hating sinner, perfectly happy in your own sin.

I wasn't referring to me Brad and the scriptures you have posted do not support your analogy that God looks down from heaven and sees "black hats".

So again my question is:

when he looks down from the heavens and sees a new born child or a toddler? Does he see someone richly deserving to spend an eternity in a torturous never ending hell? Does he see a lost and fallen sinner?

[LeSellers]

Do you see NO common ground? Do you not see any Christian charity? Do you not see people who want to promote honesty, integrity, family values, etc. in our society? Do you not see a reverence for God, and a respect for all of his creations? Do you not see the effort to honor the Ten Commandments, the Beatitudes, the Golden Rule and the two greatest commandments stated by Christ?

Well, he does see, at least, the fact that we do not believe we descended from apes.

All of my statements were based upon the assumption that God is indeed real, and that Jesus was who he said he was. Obviously there are other possibilities, I just thought that we would all atleast [sic] be able to agree that we couldn't of [sic] possibly come from apes.

Lehi

[volgadon]

I don't follow Luther - I follow Christ and I believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God. I happen to go to a Church that stemmed back to Luther a long, long time ago, but other than that, that's the only effect he's had on me. I haven't ever studied him, apart from reading his 95 Theses all the way through once.

Wouldn't a church stemming from a guy who tampered with scripture without any claims of divine authority be suspect?

[volgadon]

This is a valid point...I'll have to say that I don't know. I'm not quite sure how God works, ya know? I believe that God is all knowing, yet I believe he is not willing that any should perish (2 Peter). I think this is a good passage though, maybe it'll help a bit:

Romans 8:28-30: "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

I would never say that it would be God's fault for someone to be unsaved though. The problem lies in the fact that we are all sinners, and detestable in the sight of God without the atonement of Jesus Christ. If life was fair, we would all be in hell. Luckily our God is merciful!!

If God is able to save whomever he chooses to and wishes that none should perish, why then does he not choose to save everyone?

If we are all sinners and detestable in God's sight, then why would he save you and not me? What makes you more worthy of being saved if you also are a detestable sinner? How can God remain a God of love who is no respecter of persons? Does he play arbitrary and sadistic games? Your calvinist god is a monster, pure and simple.

[Markk]

Hi Brad,

I ate ( and eat) ice cream all the time. Lol.

But I think a lot of you are missing my point. My point is that, without the atonement of Jesus covering us, all God looks down and sees is bad people. Yes, he loves us, that's why he sent his only son to die for us (John 3:16), but we all deserve hell. That's the point of grace. Think of it like this: If someone were to rape and kill one of your children, and you are sitting in court, waiting for that man to be sentenced, would you be willling to show the compassion to let him off scot free? Some might, but most wouldn't. Our culture today thirsts for justice, and it would be perfectly just and fair for God to send all of us to hell, because our sin is utterly despicable in his sight. That's the whole point to why Jesus's death and resurrection was so amazing...We are that person who raped and murdered someone's child, sitting in court waiting on our sentence, and God condemns his own son in our place so we can get off scot free. It's not fair at all, but that's why we call it Amazing Grace! I just find that so beautiful and amazing....

John 3:18 is a good place to start with your poin here.

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Mark

John 1:12

[Ceeboo]

Wouldn't a church stemming from a guy who tampered with scripture without any claims of divine authority be suspect?

This post by Volgadon is atleast worth a hint of consideration, IMHO.

For clarity: I have much admiration for him as well as some of the things Luther fought aginst ( Indulgences being at the top of my bias Catholic list ). I can not help but to suggest, however, that the " ways " and " results " of his fight ended in an irreversable " original Split " of Christ followers that has led to the thousands of seperated Christian brethren Churches we see today. I do not imagine this was the intention of our beloved, devout, and God fearing x-Catholic Monk and although I am well aware of his " excommunication " from said Catholic Church, I certainly do not judge him nor do I suggest that he is not, right now, in the Kingdom with our Lord.

At any rate, just my own bias offering a little " shout out ".

Peace,

Ceeboo

[Brad]

See that is just it, your theology falls apart the second we mention Judas, There is no such thing as "Eternal Security" Or once saved always saved.

Any I don't care to debate that. Apparently you feel that we mormons are not saved? On what grounds do you suppose that? We all have faith in Christ and trust him 100%, and we show that trust by doing what he asks us.

No, my theology certainly has not fallen apart.

Check out Matthew 7:21.

As far as eternal security, check out John 10:26-32.

Sorry I don't have time to respond to everything in full right now...pretty busy today, but I will try to respond to them as soon as possible.

And also, Brenda, I think you said it better than I did. It's not that I won't find common ground with LDS, it IS that I can't. And it's not that we don't have common ground at all (I perhaps could've of worded it a lot better and avoided all this), but I just wanted to emphasize the fact that LDS and Protestants aren't very compatible due to the different views of whether Joseph Smith is a prophet or not.

[ed2276]

Why then is it so difficult for protestants, especially evangelicals, to recognise us as such?

Because, among other things, we claim to be the restored church of Jesus Christ on Earth.

[sweetpotatoh]

Well, it's been about a month since I've last consistently posted on the board - I've been in Utah without a computer. Just got back to Texas this past Friday.

Anyways, during my time in Utah, I got the chance to have a two hour conversation with Steven Page, the Director of the Institute of Religion at Weber State University (and a devout LDS). We had a really good talk, and discussed many of the differences between LDS and Protestants, and he really emphasized how LDS are trying to find common ground with Protestants. This really made me think, and it caused me to come up with why I, as a protestant, can not find common ground with the LDS...and I would like to add that I am saying this in a respectful, loving way. I am not attacking any of you, or being what you call "Anti-mormon"...I am only merely wanting to give you a Protestant's point of view on the issue, and I only ask that you read it objectively and try to put yourself in a Protestant's shoes. I know you disagree with me already, I only want you to see my perspective on the topic.

Point blank, we do not believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet, just because of all the evidence and suspicions that stack up against him. And when I pray to God with a sincere heart, I am not given that "feeling of truth/burning in the bosom" that you talk about, but I am left with a horrible feeling that I have just read the words of a false prophet. No offense, but if I did think he was a true prophet, there would be no reason for me to not be LDS myself. Given this, if he is not a true prophet, he falls under the category of a false prophet. And what is the offense of a false prophet given in the Bible? Well, look at Galatians 1:6-8: "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

and also in Ezekiel 13:1-9: "1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD;

3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!

4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.

5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.

6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.

7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?

8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD.

9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD."

So, looking at this, let's just say (hypothetically for you LDS out there), that Joseph Smith indeed IS a false prophet. Just for the sake of putting yourself in a protestant's position. After reading these verses, do you think God would be happy with us for not rebuking a false prophet when we see one? We have to, out of sheer conscience. That is why we feel the need to witness to LDS, not because we hate you all, but because we love you, and just want to see you in heaven with us and the Heavenly Father one day.

Thanks for reading, I hope my words don't offend, but only merely give you all another perspective.

-Brad

Brad, no offense, but I find your OP very unchristian.

[Risingtide]

Brad, while it is obvious that their is common ground in the values and beliefs of Protestants and members of the LDS faith, it's just as obvious that there is differences. If you'll contemplate it you'll find their is common ground between all members of humanity. Here's a simple one Brad, there is common ground between two people if both believe in God even if they ascribe different qualities to that god. If one person is an atheist and the other a theist they don't share common ground in regards to belief in that realm , but they will share common ground on other topics. You believe there is a God, I believe there is a God, so in at least this limited since we share that common ground. You like ice cream? So do I. My my our list is growing.

[Christian Mormon]

Well, look at Galatians 1:6-8: "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

seems to me that any church that preaches a gospel NOT under the direction of LIVING apostles are accursed

oh and 70's

Luke 10: 1 1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

looks like im in the right church

yep....staying LDS

[ready2prepare]

Warm Greetings, Brad:

When people describe their experiences with prayer, there seems

to be one common factor that determines whether the answer they

receive comes from God or from some other source.

What is that common factor? People of all faiths describe it as

a feeling of peace, quiet assurance, also described as calmness,

clarity of mind, peace of conscience, etc.

Quoting what you said about what happens when you pray

about Joseph Smith:

"...I am left with a horrible feeling..."

Is it possible...just possible...that the "horrible feeling" you describe

comes from some source other than God, such as your own (plainly

stated, plainly evident and understandable) fears?

Only you (and God) know the answer to that question.

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace,

as in all churches of the saints." 1 Corinthians 14:33

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Please use scripture to back up your accusations. Opinion is only that, an opinion.....and has no bearing on truth.

Check out Romans 3:10-18:

"10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17And the way of peace have they not known:

18There is no fear of God before their eyes."

You may think you are a good person here on this earth when you compare yourself to everyone else, but quite frankly, without Jesus, you wouldn't be anything other than a God-hating sinner, perfectly happy in your own sin.

Why did Jesus say, "Suffer the little children, for such is the kingodm of God"?

I trust Jesus not Paul.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

No, my theology certainly has not fallen apart.

Check out Matthew 7:21.

As far as eternal security, check out John 10:26-32.

Sorry I don't have time to respond to everything in full right now...pretty busy today, but I will try to respond to them as soon as possible.

Thanks for proving my point Brad, what must one do to be Christ's? Accourding to Mat7:21

It is more than just saying" Lord I accpet you into my heart and I trust you 100% to save me from hell".

Why do you suppose that the LDS are not saved? The all have faith in Christ 100% and believe him at his word. So why are we not saved, and why do you feel we need to listen to you at all?

[Brenda]

And also, Brenda, I think you said it better than I did. It's not that I won't find common ground with LDS, it IS that I can't. And it's not that we don't have common ground at all (I perhaps could've of worded it a lot better and avoided all this), but I just wanted to emphasize the fact that LDS and Protestants aren't very compatible due to the different views of whether Joseph Smith is a prophet or not.

I see this attitude as willfully stubborn on your part. Also, I'm sure many Protestants do not agree with you. Either religion need not demand, expect, or even ask the other to adopt their beliefs to be able to find common ground and, if needed in society, work together for the betterment of that society.

Prop 8 in California was an example of this. I saw this also in Oregon as we worked with many religions to keep marriage as is. There are so many good values that can be promoted without any mention of Joseph Smith! For goodness sake, get over it.

Whatever your motive is, it comes across, or appears as jealousy and spitefulness. I could be completely wrong in that and hopefully I am wrong, but that's how it looks.

[William the Conqueror]

-Brad<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Oh how condescending of you. Well, we believe that you do not even believe in the bible. Rather, you worship the bible and base your doctrines on the non biblical creeds. Your scholarship is wanting and your love is in serious doubt. Is that a sufficiently condescending response? Just trying to find common ground with your rudeness.

Of course, your concern demonstrates your doctrinal paradox of salvation by grace. If all we have to do is believe in Jesus and be saved, then there is no doctrinal requirement to fulfill. Or are you suggesting that in addition to believing in Jesus, we also have to study the bible first and embrace the heretical creeds before we can be eligible for grace? Can you please find a reference in the scriptures for such a doctrine?

Do you think that one who believes the Bible has errors worships the Bible?

[William the Conqueror]

Warm Greetings, Brad:

"...I am left with a horrible feeling..."

Is it possible...just possible...that the "horrible feeling" you describe

comes from some source other than God, such as your own (plainly

stated, plainly evident and understandable) fears?

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace,

as in all churches of the saints." 1 Corinthians 14:33

Ready2, do you think Brad's feeling could come from Satan and/or his minions?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Do you think that one who believes the Bible has errors worships the Bible?

Strange, I thought Brad beleived the bible to be free of errors. DOes he not hold to that position.

THis is strange argument. Weather it has no errors or not does not preculde one from bible worship.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Ready2, do you think Brad's feeling could come from Satan and/or his minions?

What do you think from the sciptures that were quoted. Do dark feelings of horror come from God?

[ready2prepare]

William, my purpose in writing was simply to invite Brad

to consider the possibility that his "horrible feeling"

may have come from some source other than God.

I've heard others say that they've prayed about the

Book of Mormon or about Joseph Smith and their

answer was a negative one, but Brad is the first

person I recall in my experience who was willing

to share what he FELT when he prayed.

If I understand the Bible correctly, the feeling

("spirit") accompanying the answer provides the

key to its source.

"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of

power, and of love, and of a sound mind." (2 Timothy 1:7)

Hope this helps.

[William the Conqueror]

William, my purpose in writing was simply to invite Brad

to consider the possibility that his "horrible feeling"

may have come from some source other than God.

I've heard others say that they've prayed about the

Book of Mormon or about Joseph Smith and their

answer was a negative one, but Brad is the first

person I recall in my experience who was willing

to share what he FELT when he prayed.

If I understand the Bible correctly, the feeling

("spirit") accompanying the answer provides the

key to its source.

"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of

power, and of love, and of a sound mind." (2 Timothy 1:7)

Hope this helps.

It sounds like you want to be polite to Brad and therefore you dodged the bullet of my question. My surmise is that IF Joseph Smith was a true Prophet and Brad has horrible feelings when praying about it, then either the feelings could come as you say from his stubbornness or could also come from the angel of light (I Corinthians).

[William the Conqueror]

Strange, I thought Brad beleived the bible to be free of errors. DOes he not hold to that position.

THis is strange argument. Weather it has no errors or not does not preculde one from bible worship.

Brad may believe it is error free, however I do not. Now what you say confuses me, for you say if it does have errors that does not preclude one from Bible worship. You need to clarify your statement for you may mean that if it does have errors but a person believes it does not then he worships the Bible. What I mean is if it does have errors and a person accepts that it has errors then does that person worship the Bible? Your statement is not clear on that.