A Protestant's perspective on why we won't find common ground with LDS

[selek]

Brad

We have plenty of common ground with protestants.

But you're OP ironically is correct. You, as "A" protestant, WON'T find common ground, because you don't want to find it. You have begged the question from the beginning.

Your OP itself is inconsistent in at one time saying you don't want to argue, but then the entire thread proves that you lied. That is all this thread is, is polemics.

So much for your credibility consistency and "christian attitude". With you as an example, you won't find converts here.

This is all a waste of time as far as I am concerned. The entire premise is false and self-serving.

Hear! Hear! I can't believe people have wasted nine pages playing with this troll.

Brad doesn't understand what we believe because he isn't interested in understanding. His presence here ISN'T a quest for knowledge or understanding- and he's admitted as much at least three times now.

Brad isn't here to UNDERSTAND us- he's here to CONVERT us- and has said as much several times. I suspect that- in his own mind at least- Brad harbors the idea that he's here to condemn us; that in the Last Day, he'll be able to gloat to Jesus that he "warned all the damned Mormons, but they just wouldn't listen."

He's here to "cry repentance" and "minister" to the Mormons- both violations of the board rules- and will soon be banned.

[ACW]

No, I'm not saying that once you're born again you stop sinning completely. 1 John 1 talks about that...saying that if we say we have no sin, we are liars and the truth is not in us. But the point is you become a slave to righteousness, and it will be impossible to continually live in your sin. And yes, we do believe that you can't lose your salvation. However, if you see someone who professes Jesus as Lord, and yet it is obvious they are still a slave to sin, then they don't really have faith to begin with.

This is something I hear Christians say and haven't gotten a real answer when I ask...What is my/your "sin"? Why is it singular and not plural?

So yes, I guess you could say I've had a change of heart. If anyone can agree with this, then yes, I would say we have some common ground.

[Cold Steel]

Brad doesn't understand what we believe because he isn't interested in understanding. ... ...that in the Last Day, he'll be able to gloat to Jesus that he "warned all the damned Mormons, but they just wouldn't listen."

It may very well be true, but I think we've got to let him carry on. In the end, it's his church/movement that bears no resemblance to the early church.

Look, everyone is pre-programmed in some ways when it comes to religion. I used to be a Protestant and I'm very aware of the things about protestantism that stuck out to me and just didn't fit. So if one starts out nowadays looking for the church of Jesus, doesn't it seem reasonable to begin looking for a church with apostles? Protestantism only works if one can completely nullify Catholicism and Mormonism. They came from Catholicism, so to make room for themselves, they have to write the Catholic church off. Then they have to make a case for the restoration of the pristine faith through reconstruction. But one needs authority to do that, so they take the words of Paul to the Hebrews, the Corinthians and so forth, and pretend it was written to them. "We are the priesthood of believers," they say, "because Paul says" such and such, and then they show you a reference from the epistles. Well, it wasn't written to them, and they say, "Oh, yes it was. See, Paul said "YOU" are a chosen generation and a royal priesthood, and that means US.

It's hard to follow the logic until you understand this train of thought. These are the same folks who say the Bible says not to add to it because of that verse by John in Revelation that says not to add to the words of "this book." I actually had one minister tell me that God knew that Revelation would be the last book in the Bible and that he caused that verse to be written for the entire Bible. It's not something you see very much any more, but you do occasionally.

In my own view, protestantism is a movement that's been seeking legitimacy for an awfully long time. The only way they can do it is to hijack it from Catholicism. Catholicism is broken and their job is to fix it, and to restore ancient Bible worship through a tenacious study of the Bible. Countless Protestant groups popped up to give it a try, and when each of them failed, another would rise up in their stead.

So let them make their claims if they can. So far they haven't even tried, and I've challenged them many times to show how their organizations today resemble the ancient Christian church. One of these days, I'm certain someone will try. Then we can all go to the Bible and check their claims.

[volgadon]

No, I'm not saying that once you're born again you stop sinning completely. 1 John 1 talks about that...saying that if we say we have no sin, we are liars and the truth is not in us. But the point is you become a slave to righteousness, and it will be impossible to continually live in your sin. And yes, we do believe that you can't lose your salvation. However, if you see someone who professes Jesus as Lord, and yet it is obvious they are still a slave to sin, then they don't really have faith to begin with.

Also, I was doing some thinking on my way home, and I remember how I said how Protestants should want to convert LDS to Protestantism, just as LDS desire to convert Protestants to Mormonism. I'll have to retract that. I'll have to admit, there are a lot of people in Protestant churches today who aren't truly saved. They desire to take advantage of the grace given to them, thinking, "Oh, it's all grace? Let's just keep on sinning, and God will forgive us!" To which Paul exclaimed, "May it never be! How shall we who died to sin, still live in it?"

So my goal here is to not "convert" any LDS so that they become good Baptists, and so on. That would be pointless. I just am looking to share what I believe God has revealed to me in the Scriptures as the true Gospel, and anyone who believes it can know that they are saved, whether they go to a Baptist church, Methodist, Catholic, LDS, etc.

So I suggest we get back to the root of the problem. This is what I believe to be the true Gospel:

When the Phillipian jailer asked, "Sirs, what must I do to have eternal life?" Paul told him, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved". (Acts 16)

So...believe. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

And what exactly is faith? Well here's the definition I got off of an LDS website: "Faith is to hope for things which are not seen, but which are true (Heb. 11: 1; Alma 32: 21), and must be centered in Jesus Christ in order to produce salvation. To have faith is to have confidence in something or someone."

And just what exactly are we trusting Jesus to do for us? To save us from our sin. We are trusting Jesus to save us, and to give us a second birth. As I've said before, in John 3 Jesus said in order to have eternal life, you must be born again. Romans 6:6-7 says, "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin."

Our old self was crucified with Christ Jesus. We can no longer be continually carnal, or else what type of faith is that? It would be like saying, "I have confidence Jesus defeated my sin, yet I love my sin! I'm gonna keep on sinning."

I believe that genuine faith produces good works, but it is not of ourselves. "For by grace are ye saved through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:8-10)

It is impossible to be born again and still be a slave to sin. God made you a new creature. If you don't become a new creature, then you never were born again! When you say after you are born again, you can choose to still live a life full of sin, it just doesn't compute. Paul said, "How can we, who are dead to sin, still live in it?" (Romans 6:2). Again, this isn't to say that we stop sinning altogether, but we know that our new nature causes us to naturally want to keep God's commandments.

That's the way I see it. We are justified by our faith alone (Romans 3:23-28). And I also believe that anyone who is truly born again can not have their new self die again, and revert back to their dead man. This is the security of the believer, like it says in John 10:26-29: "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

So yes, I guess you could say I've had a change of heart. If anyone can agree with this, then yes, I would say we have some common ground.

Our 4th article of faith states faith, repentancem baptim and laying on of hands for the holy ghost.

The very first step is faith. That is what Paul told the jailer. We teach step by step. Faith leads us to do things, it isn't the end goal. When we do things, our faith develops.

One can become a new creature, then sin and have to repent.

[volgadon]

I would say that you don't have a choice once you are born again. I know that sounds bad, but I believe when you're born again, you become a part of that flock. And even if we try to get away, God will see that we get back on track (Remember the parable of the 99 sheep, and the 1 that was lost, and the shepherd dropped everything and went to look for it?) Let's look at the passage in John again:

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Notice it doesn't say, "Because you don't believe, you're not my sheep", but rather "You don't believe, because you aren't my sheep." I just find that interesting. Maybe it's talking about Pre-destination?

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

I take this as his sheep HEAR Him, and they naturally follow Him. And if they left, he would go get them, just like in the parable.

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

He's saying that no one can take them away from Him. Now what if they want to leave? I think that would go against the nature of someone who is truly born again. No where in the Bible does it say that you can go back to your dead self.

Another illustration I like to look at is that the formula is not Faith (Man's response) + Works (Man's choice) = Eternal Life, but rather Faith (man's response) = Eternal life + Works (Good works created for you to follow by God, like in Eph. 2:10).

Where does the parable of the lost sheep fit in?

[volgadon]

Just a little country boy hey? (Lotsa countries!)

Haha, yes. I'm perfectly incapable of seeing any perspective but my own LDS Utah one......

[Wants2know]

You mean like run TV ads and sending out 50000 missionaries.

Because we believe God is ultimately fair in his judgments we believe you will be judged based on what you know and do. Not based on what we know.

I've always heard about these missionaries but I have yet to ever have one knock on my door. Now Jehovah Witnesses are another story.

Just wanted to lighten this thread a little.

[Wants2know]

"Believing" is not merely just accepting a statement of facts. It is trust. Putting your trust in Jesus Christ to save you. It says in John 3 that you must be born again. What exactly happens when you're born again? You become dead to sin. In Romans 6, it says "How can we, who are dead to sin, still live in it"?

Your old man is crucified with Christ. You no longer are a slave to sin, but a slave to righteousness. Can you genuinely be born again and then choose to do evil for the rest of your life? Absolutely not, according to what I believe. After talking to many LDS, they like the idea of free choice. They believe that you can be born again and choose to do evil. Let me word it this way: They are saying, you can be born again, have your old self be crucified with Christ, become a slave to righteousness, and still choose to be a slave to sin.

That doesn't compute with me.

So you're saying that because in your religion once you are "born again", you are considered free of sin and you are without free will?

[Gervin]

In my own view, protestantism is a movement that's been seeking legitimacy for an awfully long time. The only way they can do it is to hijack it from Catholicism. Catholicism is broken and their job is to fix it, and to restore ancient Bible worship through a tenacious study of the Bible. Countless Protestant groups popped up to give it a try, and when each of them failed, another would rise up in their stead.

Try telling that to the Mennonites.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Try telling that to the Mennonites.

Ooooooooooo..... Burn.

[Gervin]

Ooooooooooo..... Burn.

Ooooooooooo..... attempted sarcasm.

[ERayR]

I was once like Brad....a true believing Bible thumping, "saved" Southern Baptist. My best friend was LDS and I was certain that they were members of a cult and worshiped Joseph Smith. I was certain because that was I was told by other Baptists and that was what I chose to believe. I use to have some spirited debates with the missionaries that were always at his house and with my friend also. I was so busy debating and so sure they were wrong, that I rarely listened to what they were saying, yet I always thought there was something remarkably nice or good about them. I enjoyed going to the youth activities and occasionally attended Sunday services...until I went to a fast and testimony meeting. That pretty much confirmed my beliefs that they were coocoo. Sometime later, another non-LDS friend and I were harassing our miss guided Mormon friend....when the oddest thing occurred, well actually the most wonderful thing occurred. It's difficult to describe the flood of emotion and........absolute pure and holy presence that settled upon me. It quieted my tongue and opened my "spiritual" ears and I understood things in a non logical, yet positively certain fashion. (I felt like those folks at that Fast and Testimony meeting). I had always referred to the Holy Spirit and was told that he dwelt within me.........but that was the first time I had ever experienced his presence and I am absolutely certain that without the ministering of the Holy Ghost, Brad and others like him will likely never understand our seemingly odd and out of step beliefs.

Thanks for the testimony. My daughter-in-law was from an anti-mormon family and was challenged to read the BoM and pray about it. Her comment about her experience was "If you don't want to know the answer you had better not ask the question". She is a happy active LDS member and loves it.

For me it has never been a flash of light or startling revelation but a very deep calm feeling of peace and assurance.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Ooooooooooo..... attempted sarcasm.

Attempeted? So you are sayign that I failed? Lol. Oh the irony.

[Gervin]

My daughter-in-law was from an anti-mormon family and was challenged to read the BoM and pray about it. Her comment about her experience was "If you don't want to know the answer you had better not ask the question".

My reaction is that she knew the answer before she ever asked the question.

[ERayR]

My reaction is that she knew the answer before she ever asked the question.

I like your mind reading skills. You do amazing things with them.

You would, in this case, probably be very wrong.

[Gervin]

I like your mind reading skills. You do amazing things with them.

You would, in this case, probably be very wrong.

I don't think I am but I'm willing to be corrected. By what authority did she pray to determine if the Book of Mormon was true?

[Daniel Peterson]

My reaction is that she knew the answer before she ever asked the question.

Do you assume that to be so in all or most cases where somebody claims to have prayed and received an answer? Is that your default explanation?

If so, on what basis do you assume it?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I don't think I am but I'm willing to be corrected. By what authority did she pray to determine if the Book of Mormon was true?

Red herring, you do not need authority to pray to God.

[ERayR]

I don't think I am but I'm willing to be corrected. By what authority did she pray to determine if the Book of Mormon was true?

Huh!! ? What authority is necessary to pray?

[Gervin]

Huh!! ? What authority is necessary to pray?

You said your daughter-in-law was challenged to read the BoM and pray about it. You said she commented that "If you don't want to know the answer you had better not ask the question". Were "praying" and "asking the question" somehow tied together? If so, how did she assume that praying would answer her question?

[ERayR]

You said your daughter-in-law was challenged to read the BoM and pray about it. You said she commented that "If you don't want to know the answer you had better not ask the question". Were "praying" and "asking the question" somehow tied together? If so, how did she assume that praying would answer her question?

I think a reading comprehension course might be of some value to you but thats just a guess. Also you might want to add a course on writing for clarity. I have no idea what you are asking. Sorry I am usually able to perceive meaning in someones writing but yours makes no sense at all in context.

[Gervin]

I think a reading comprehension course might be of some value to you but thats just a guess. Also you might want to add a course on writing for clarity. I have no idea what you are asking. Sorry I am usually able to perceive meaning in someones writing but yours makes no sense at all in context.

I can try and break it down more simply for you:

Did she pray to know if the Book of Mormon is true - yes or no?

If yes, what assurance did she have that she would get an answer?

[ERayR]

I can try and break it down more simply for you:

Did she pray to know if the Book of Mormon is true - yes or no?

If yes, what assurance did she have that she would get an answer?

Yes

Only Moroni 10:3-7 of which she was quite dubious.

[Lance in TX]

The point of this thread was that I want you to see my perspective on WHY I choose not to try and find common ground with LDS.

If you have no desire to even attempt to find common ground with LDS in any way, then the discussions should just end.

We do not want to be preached to on here about how wrong we are. I would recommend to you to not bother posting here again, if all you are going to do is put us down and not even attempt to see anything good in what we do.

If Joseph Smith really was a false prophet, you guys are in big trouble. I'm sure most of you can agree with that. God takes false prophets very, very seriously...which is my point.

And if he is not a false prophet, then you are the one in big trouble.

I will "take my chances" with the knowledge that I have learned and I will remain LDS. Thank you for your concern. I hope one day you will find and accept the truth.

BTW: What denomination are you? Please let us know.

And I don't know why any of you are thinking I'm being condescending. I'm not, I promise. I just spent a week in Utah,

Wow! A week in Utah! Well.. That settles it.

I only want you to understand that because I believe Joseph was false, it would be wrong of me to accept him as a brother in Christ.

So that also means that all LDS are not brothers in Christ. Hmm.. I see.. But of course, you meant no offense.. right?

So if we are not brothers in Christ, what are we? Brothers in Satan? Afterall, there are only 2 choices..

Now, I understand you are going to disagree with everything I'm saying. That's no surprise. I just ask that you put yourself in my shoes.

Actually, my shoes fit just fine. Thanks anyways.

[Daniel Peterson]

Sigh. I missed this one yesterday:

The point of this thread was that I want you to see my perspective on WHY I choose not to try and find common ground with LDS.

So you choose to make no attempt to find any common ground with millions of Latter-day Saints.

How admirable.

I think this is the same approach to religious difference that they've traditionally followed in the Balkans, in Northern Ireland, and in parts of the Middle East.