A Protestant's perspective on why we won't find common ground with LDS

[William the Conqueror]

Strange, I thought Brad beleived the bible to be free of errors. DOes he not hold to that position.

THis is strange argument. Weather it has no errors or not does not preculde one from bible worship.

Brad may believe it is error free, however I do not. Now what you say confuses me, for you say if it does have errors that does not preclude one from Bible worship. You need to clarify your statement for you may mean that if it does have errors but a person believes it does not then he worships the Bible. What I mean is if it does have errors and a person accepts that it has errors then does that person worship the Bible? Your statement is not clear on that.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Brad may believe it is error free, however I do not. Now what you say confuses me, for you say if it does have errors that does not preclude one from Bible worship. You need to clarify your statement for you may mean that if it does have errors but a person believes it does not then he worships the Bible. What I mean is if it does have errors and a person accepts that it has errors then does that person worship the Bible? Your statement is not clear on that.

My statement is simple: nothing in this world preculdes one from any form of worship. If the bible has errors in it and some one beleives that it has errors are they exempt from bible worship? If so on what grounds.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

It sounds like you want to be polite to Brad and therefore you dodged the bullet of my question. My surmise is that IF Joseph Smith was a true Prophet and Brad has horrible feelings when praying about it, then either the feelings could come as you say from his stubbornness or could also come from the angel of light (I Corinthians).

Then it should be obvious that that angel of light is from the devil if you get horrible feelings.

Is God going to give you horrible feelings? THat is the real question, if you think God does on what grounds do you suppose such?

IOW it doesn't matter in this sense weather or not JS is a true prophet. THe response is about prayer and answers to prayers. DOes God give horrible feelings in answer to prayers?

[William the Conqueror]

Then it should be obvious that that angel of light is from the devil if you get horrible feelings.

Is God going to give you horrible feelings?

THat is the real question, if you think God does on what grounds do you suppose such?

Well He sent an evil spirit to Saul that tormented him. David's harp playing gave him relief. Also he sent a spirit of emnity between the citizens of Shechem and Abimelech (Judges).

IOW it doesn't matter in this sense weather or not JS is a true prophet. THe response is about prayer and answers to prayers. DOes God give horrible feelings in answer to prayers?

But let us for the sake of argument assume you are correct in that God would never give horrible feelings in answer to prayers. If that is the case then you could be right that Brad's horrible feelings are from the Devil. That would mean that Brad is strongly influenced by the Devil in rejecting the claims of Joseph Smith would you not agree? Now Ready2 never came out and said it directly but I believe that you are saying it.

[ready2prepare]

Hi Brad: I'm new here and just wanted to ask you a few questions to help me better understand how YOU understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Is that OK? Please read on...

... I just am looking to share what I believe God has revealed to me in the Scriptures as the true Gospel, and anyone who believes it can know that they are saved, whether they go to a Baptist church, Methodist, Catholic, LDS, etc. ...

First Question: Is believing the true Gospel as written in the Scriptures sufficient, then, for salvation? Is baptism still necessary and if so, how and by whom is it to be done? (Or does it matter?)

...This is what I believe to be the true Gospel: When the Phillipian jailer asked, "Sirs, what must I do to have eternal life?" Paul told him, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved". (Acts 16)So...believe. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Second Question: Is believing in Christ the same as having faith in Christ?

...Faith...must be centered in Jesus Christ in order to produce salvation.

Third Question: Am I quoting you correctly here? (If so, then the Latter Day Saints agree with you 100%. )

Romans 6:6-7 says, "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin." Our old self was crucified with Christ Jesus.

Fourth Question: Who does the "crucifying" of our old self, and how?

"For by grace are ye saved through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast..." (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Fifth Question: If I personally understand that verse to mean that it is by grace we are saved after all we can do (because all of our works alone will never be sufficient to save us without grace being extended to us by Christ), would you agree that we share the same understanding?

...If anyone can agree with this, then yes, I would say we have some common ground.

Yes, Brad, I would say we DO have some common ground.

Looking forward to reading your answers!

Best Regards,

Sharon in Mississippi

[Freedom]

Do you think that one who believes the Bible has errors worships the Bible?

No, I beleive that Brad has demonstrated again and again that he is a hypocryte and that his beliefs are less based on the bible than those of the LDS faith.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Well He sent an evil spirit to Saul that tormented him. David's harp playing gave him relief. Also he sent a spirit of emnity between the citizens of Shechem and Abimelech (Judges).

But let us for the sake of argument assume you are correct in that God would never give horrible feelings in answer to prayers. If that is the case then you could be right that Brad's horrible feelings are from the Devil. That would mean that Brad is strongly influenced by the Devil in rejecting the claims of Joseph Smith would you not agree? Now Ready2 never came out and said it directly but I believe that you are saying it.

I am not the one saying that it is the bible. DO you disagree? I make zero claims as to what Brads answer is from. That is between him and God.

[Cold Steel]

...I am only merely wanting to give you a Protestant's point of view on the issue, and I only ask that you read it objectively and try to put yourself in a Protestant's shoes. ... Point blank, we do not believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet, just because of all the evidence and suspicions that stack up against him.

It's fascinating how so many people come to differing views. Yet I respect your views. I do, however, think that you're selling him short. I believe there's substantial evidence that the Book of Mormon is of God. He manages to get so many things right, yet he also lived as though he was convinced of his calling. He never quit the people, he raised them to his level and encouraged all to become prophets. I suppose with any true prophet, there will always be enemies and those who don't believe. I've found that most of the reasons people don't believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet are comparable to reasons that many don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah.

And when I pray to God with a sincere heart, I am not given that "feeling of truth/burning in the bosom" that you talk about, but I am left with a horrible feeling that I have just read the words of a false prophet. No offense, but if I did think he was a true prophet, there would be no reason for me to not be LDS myself. Given this, if he is not a true prophet, he falls under the category of a false prophet.

Yes, but what if he is? What if you're wrong? If you went before God with an open mind, would you feel guilty? Could you even do it? Or would you say, "Lord, I know Joseph Smith's not a prophet...at least I don't think he is...but if for some reason I'm wrong, would you let me know...just so I could tell them I prayed about it." I don't know whether that's enough faith or not, though I doubt it is. Pulling revelation down is tough. When I joined the church, I was on the verge of baptism...I mean it was the next day, scheduled for the early afternoon. I felt calm, but somewhat frustrated. Wasn't I supposed to feel something more? I was intellectually, even spiritually, convinced in a way. Everyone else in my family had said they'd gained a testimony, but I was skeptical. Still, I was willing to take the plunge. But it came that night, and since I can't put it into words, I won't even try, but it's something that actually descends on you and lingers. It pierces you directly to the heart and brings incredible peace. Self deception? Not in my opinion. Revelation from the Adversary? Nah, he can't do something like that or, if he can, he'd probably be using it for all false religions. I can't tell you how it felt, only the effect, and it stays with you. I don't know why it didn't come before then, but who cares?

So, looking at this, let's just say (hypothetically for you LDS out there), that Joseph Smith indeed IS a false prophet. Just for the sake of putting yourself in a Protestant's position. After reading these verses, do you think God would be happy with us for not rebuking a false prophet when we see one? We have to, out of sheer conscience. That is why we feel the need to witness to LDS, not because we hate you all, but because we love you, and just want to see you in heaven with us and the Heavenly Father one day.

Well, unless God has called you to rail against a prophet, you'd best be sure that it's a false prophet you're fighting. If you're wrong, how are you going to feel knowing that you fought against God while you thought you were serving Him? In the end we're all responsible for our own actions. As a former Protestant myself, I felt the movement was too much into damning others. Knowing LDS theology as I do, I can't imagine a just God condemning a Latter-day Saint just for believing in what they believe...if for some reason it was false. But if one studies, or examines, the complex theology the Joseph Smith left behind, and how it all meshes together and makes sense, I think one would be hard pressed to think that a single man could do it. Then, on top of that, to throw out the Book of Mormon, hundreds of prophecies that came true and topping that, to go off to your own death, knowing the whole time you'll never see your wife and children again. Joseph Smith fully knew the danger he was in. He was on the other side of the river and could have fled and escaped his enemies, yet he came back. He told Hyrum to escape, but he refused. He'd passed on all the priesthood keys to the Twelve and told numerous people that he was at the end of his ministry. This all, combined, doesn't pass the smell test for a false prophet. Yet we all must all come to our own conclusions. So before you rebuke, I suggest you check your antenna. Just sayin'....

[Ceeboo]

on top of that, to throw out the Book of Mormon, hundreds of prophecies that came true

Good morning Cold Steel,

( Sorry to sway off topic a bit but since the OP doesn't seem to be around I thought it might be OK )

For context and clarity: I am ASKING about and not questioning your post as I am not LDS and have limited knowledge ( perhaps pure ignorance ) of this " hundreds of prophecies " that came true.

Would you be so kind to share some of these prophecies that came true ( or point me in the direction where I can learn of them ).

Thanks

Peace,

Ceeboo

[William the Conqueror]

I am not the one saying that it is the bible. DO you disagree? I make zero claims as to what Brads answer is from. That is between him and God.

Mola Ram, should I interpret your statement to mean, "That is between him and his God." ?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mola Ram, should I interpret your statement to mean, "That is between him and his God." ?

Whatever.

I fail to see why that makes a difference.

[Cold Steel]

Would you be so kind to share some of these prophecies that came true ( or point me in the direction where I can learn of them ).

There are numerous books on Joseph Smith's prophecies. The best known is his prophecy on war, found in the Doctrine & Covenants. This and many others can be found at Jeff Lindsey's website. He made so many prophecies that no one location can hold them all. The prophecy on was not only was fulfilled to the letter, it predicted that the great war between the states would be followed by "war being poured out upon all nations." Decades later, the first world war broke out, shortly followed by the second world war. These are the only times in the history of man where there was ever world war.

He also prophesied the famous "Night of the Falling Stars." Philo Dibble reports:

On one occasion Joseph was preaching in Kirtland sometime in the fall of 1833. Quite a number of persons were present who did not belong to the Church, and one man, more bitter and skeptical than others, made note with pencil and paper of a prophecy uttered on that occasion, wherein Joseph said that "Forty days shall not pass, and the stars shall fall from heaven."

Such an event would certainly be very unusual and improbable to the natural man, and the skeptic wrote the words as a sure evidence to prove Joseph to be a false Prophet.

On the thirty-ninth day after the utterance of that prophecy a man and brother in the Church, by the name of Joseph Hancock, who is yet living, in Payson, Utah, and another brother were out hunting game and got lost. They wandered about until night, when they found themselves at the house of this unbeliever, who exultingly produced this note of Joseph Smith's prophecy, and asked Brother Hancock what he thought of his Prophet now, that thirty-nine days had passed and the prophecy was not fulfilled

Brother Hancock was unmoved and quietly remarked, "There is one night left of the time, and if Joseph said so, the stars will certainly fall tonight. This prophecy will all be fulfilled."

The matter weighed upon the mind of Brother Hancock, who watched that night, and it proved to be the historical one, known in all the world as "the night of the falling of the stars."

He stayed that night at the house of the skeptical unbeliever, as it was too far from home to return by night, and in the midst of the falling of the stars he went to the door of his host and called him out to witness what he had thought impossible and the most improbable thing that could happen, especially as that was the last night in which Joseph Smith could be saved from the condemnation of "a false prophet."

The whole heavens were lit up with the falling meteors, and the countenance of the new spectator was plainly seen and closely watched by Brother Hancock, who said that he turned pale as death, and spoke not a word.

After that event the unbeliever sought the company of any Latter-day Saint. He even enticed Mormon children to keep him company at his house. Not long afterwards, too, he sent for Joseph and Hyrum to come to his house, which they did, but with no noticeable results, for I believe he never received the gospel.

http://deseretbook.com/mormon-life/news/story?story_id=6782

[William the Conqueror]

Whatever.

I fail to see why that makes a difference.

Well now Mola Ram, if it makes no difference then that means you and Brad both worship the same God,(This contradicts what one of your modern prophets said about EVs and LDS worshiping a different Jesus), and IF that is true then one of you is in gross sin. And IF Joseph Smith is truely a prophet of God then Brad is in great transgression. Now if Brad is truely a child of God then the Lord would be severely chastening him (read Hebrews). However from Brad's posts on this thread he seems to be very much at peace with God which indicates to me that he is not being chastened by the Lord. Now if that is the case and again IF Joseph Smith is a true prophet, then Brad's not being chastened would indicate to me he is a spiritual b_sta_d (again read Hebrews). However Mola Ram let us assume that Joseph Smith is NOT a true prophet. Then that would indicate that Brad is a true believer and not in serious transgression. However from reading your posts I don't detect one scintilla of an iota of your being chastened by the Lord, no not at all. So Mola Ram, what does that indicate about you?

[ttribe]

Well now Mola Ram, if it makes no difference then that means you and Brad both worship the same God,(This contradicts what one of your modern prophets said about EVs and LDS worshiping a different Jesus)

Have you actually READ that quote from President Hinckley in its entirety? Cuz, you sure are making something completely different out of it than was actually in the statement.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Well now Mola Ram, if it makes no difference then that means you and Brad both worship the same God,(This contradicts what one of your modern prophets said about EVs and LDS worshiping a different Jesus), and IF that is true then one of you is in gross sin. And IF Joseph Smith is truely a prophet of God then Brad is in great transgression. Now if Brad is truely a child of God then the Lord would be severely chastening him (read Hebrews). However from Brad's posts on this thread he seems to be very much at peace with God which indicates to me that he is not being chastened by the Lord. Now if that is the case and again IF Joseph Smith is a true prophet, then Brad's not being chastened would indicate to me he is a spiritual b_sta_d (again read Hebrews).

But once you are saved you cannot fall from grace, well at least that is what I am told. I was even told that you cannot even sin once you are saved. So you see it isn't a gross sin becuase you cannot sin once you are saved.

BTW you did not understand "our prohpet" in context.

However Mola Ram let us assume that Joseph Smith is NOT a true prophet. Then that would indicate that Brad is a true believer and not in serious transgression. However from reading your posts I don't detect one scintilla of an iota of your being chastened by the Lord, no not at all. So Mola Ram, what does that indicate about you?

You said this about Brad " However from Brad's posts on this thread he seems to be very much at peace with God which indicates to me that he is not being chastened by the Lord." To which you concluded "would indicate to me he is a spiritual b_sta_d"

It would seem that you hold the same judgement for me as you do for Brad as God in your own words "I don't detect one scintilla of an iota of your being chastened by the Lord, no not at all". So again what is all the hubbub about?

What a wonderful leap you have made here "Mola Ram let us assume that Joseph Smith is NOT a true prophet. Then that would indicate that Brad is a true believer "

So if JS is not a true prophet that makes Brad a "true believer" by default how?

You have just given a nother giant non answer. See even though I believe different things about Jesus that does not mean we worship a "different God". Do you suppose that Brad believes his God is Jesus down at the taco stand? I quit frankly am confused.

[ACW]

But once you are saved you cannot fall from grace, well at least that is what I am told. I was even told that you cannot even sin once you are saved. So you see it isn't a gross sin becuase you cannot sin once you are saved.

My understanding about being saved is...someone who is saved can sin but that is ok because they are saved and their sins are covered. They are also not held accountable for their sins either, because they are saved.

These are some of the mainstream Christian concepts I have a hard time twisting my brain around.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

My understanding about being saved is...someone who is saved can sin but that is ok because they are saved and their sins are covered. They are also not held accountable for their sins either, because they are saved.

These are some of the mainstream Christian concepts I have a hard time twisting my brain around.

Consider what was posted here.

"Now, read 1 John 3:9 â??Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.â?

Referring to those who are â??born of Godâ?, what does â??doth not commit sinâ?, and â??he cannot sinâ? mean?"

Courtesy of Former LDS.

He seems to think that once you are "saved" you cannot sin and offered this proof text for his belief.

As noted though in verse 8 that those that sin are of the devil.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Dupe

[lostindc]

Well now Mola Ram, if it makes no difference then that means you and Brad both worship the same God,(This contradicts what one of your modern prophets said about EVs and LDS worshiping a different Jesus), and IF that is true then one of you is in gross sin. And IF Joseph Smith is truely a prophet of God then Brad is in great transgression. Now if Brad is truely a child of God then the Lord would be severely chastening him (read Hebrews). However from Brad's posts on this thread he seems to be very much at peace with God which indicates to me that he is not being chastened by the Lord. Now if that is the case and again IF Joseph Smith is a true prophet, then Brad's not being chastened would indicate to me he is a spiritual b_sta_d (again read Hebrews). However Mola Ram let us assume that Joseph Smith is NOT a true prophet. Then that would indicate that Brad is a true believer and not in serious transgression. However from reading your posts I don't detect one scintilla of an iota of your being chastened by the Lord, no not at all. So Mola Ram, what does that indicate about you?

Reading this was a waste of time

[ACW]

Consider what was posted here.

"Now, read 1 John 3:9 â??Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.â?

Referring to those who are â??born of Godâ?, what does â??doth not commit sinâ?, and â??he cannot sinâ? mean?"

Courtesy of Former LDS.

He seems to think that once you are "saved" you cannot sin and offered this proof text for his belief.

As noted though in verse 8 that those that sin are of the devil.

I read the NIV, KJV, and the KJVJST. The JST, if acceptable, 1John 3:9 states "...doth not continue in sin; for the Spirit of God remaineth in him;and he cannot continue in sin, because he is born of God...

So to continue in sin is a choice in the JST where as the other versions have "cannot sin" as an absolute... Ohhh the brain cramps

I will have to ask my Christian friends to expand on this.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I read the NIV, KJV, and the KJVJST. The JST, if acceptable, 1John 3:9 states "...doth not continue in sin; for the Spirit of God remaineth in him;and he cannot continue in sin, because he is born of God...

So to continue in sin is a choice in the JST where as the other versions have "cannot sin" as an absolute... Ohhh the brain cramps

I will have to ask my Christian friends to expand on this.

If you want Reklaw had a rather brilliant response to this. I can go get it, it is in the other thread.

[Hoops22]

Consider what was posted here.

"Now, read 1 John 3:9 â??Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.â?

Referring to those who are â??born of Godâ?, what does â??doth not commit sinâ?, and â??he cannot sinâ? mean?"

Courtesy of Former LDS.

He seems to think that once you are "saved" you cannot sin and offered this proof text for his belief.

As noted though in verse 8 that those that sin are of the devil.

Peter was writing to believing Jews still in the kingdom economy. Or does context and audience only apply to D&C?

[ACW]

If you want Reklaw had a rather brilliant response to this. I can go get it, it is in the other thread.

Thanks, that would be great!

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Peter was writing to believing Jews still in the kingdom economy. Or does context and audience only apply to D&C?

Hey Hoops it was also partly cloudy and a high of 72 that day. Does that matter and make what Peter or Jesus said any less?

Peter? It was a quote from John and I didn't assert it, it was "Former LDS" that did. If you disagree with his theology take it up with him. I quite frankly think it rediculous to think that once you confess Jesus you are incapable of sinning.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Thanks, that would be great!

Here it is

"1 John 3:9 uses present tense Greek, hence many translations say, "practice sin" or "continue to sin."

Precept Austin (which is Evangelical) actually uses 1 John 3:9 to explain present tense Greek:

For example note 1Jo 3:9: "No one who is born of God practices (present tense) sin (noun), because His seed abides in him and he cannot SIN (verb), because he is born of God."

Look at the verb "SIN". At first glance the verse seems to imply that one who is "born of God" can never commit a sin and yet all genuine believers know that this is not a reality (cf 1 John 1:eight) . When you understand that the verb SIN is in the present tense, it becomes clear that John is saying that one who is born of God cannot habitually commit sins as a way of life. The verb "practices" is also present tense and thus conveys the same thought. All believers commit sins but not habitually or as their lifestyle. Application: if one's lifestyle is that of continual sinning in the face of no desire for holiness, these individuals need to examine whether they are genuinely new creatures in Christ (2Cor 5:17) born from above (2Co 13:5). And so one can see that in 1Jo 3:9 (as in most of 1John 3) the accurate interpretation of this passage is certainly aided by a proper understanding of verb tense.

Depending on the context, the following adverbs may be useful to "amplify" the meaning of a verb in the present tense:

"Continuously, constantly, habitually".

Present Tense with the indicative mood represents contemporaneous action, as opposed to action in the past or future. In moods other than in the indicative mood, it refers only to continuous or repeated action. "

Courtesy of Reklaw.